Current Events > Do you think video games should be a platform for addressing social injustices?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Gobstoppers12 posted...

but it's hard to know if a game is going to be preachy until after you buy it.

Examples please. @Gobstoppers12

hockeybub89 posted...

It must be so hard living your life

Nah, it's a minor annoyance at best.

Anyone feel like listing actual examples of the plethora of games preaching at them and denying them escapism?

TheOtherMike posted...

No one is making you buy any game you don't want to.

Tell that to Twitter where they say you're some variety of terrible person for not buying, reading, or watching their divisive products. You know it's bad when American comics is the only place where you are no longer pressured into buying a divisive product.

Garioshi posted...

Tales of Symphonia had absolutely nothing to say about racism and prejudice

The difference is that Symphonia didn't completely villify one side and had some level of nuance.

Hop103 posted...

Tell that to Twitter where they say you're some variety of terrible person for not buying, reading, or watching their divisive products. You know it's bad when American comics is the only place where you are no longer pressured into buying a divisive product.

No one is making you use Twitter. Also, examples of these games, please.

It has to suck so bad to be constantly seek out things to be offended by in video games, but I guess people only care when their team is being offended.

Gobstoppers12 posted...

Nobody wants to spend money to be preached at by somebody who thinks they're smarter than they really are, though.

Why do you have questionable views on LGBT people then?

Because that's about the long and short of preachy "political" content I can think of that is in games.

hockeybub89 posted...

Why do you have questionable views on LGBT people then?

My views are reasonable and respectful.

Gobstoppers12 posted...

My views are reasonable and respectful.

Can you list some of these preachy political games then? Do they bitch about Trump, or tell us white people are evil? Maybe that communism is the one true economic system? I need to know about these games everyone is being bothered by.

Gobstoppers12 posted...

It's been a while. I don't buy trash indie games anymore.

Well I was hoping for a named example.

CyricZ posted...

Well I was hoping for a named example.

Hope is important. It keeps dreams alive.

Notice how no one ever swears off GTA games for being heavy handed social commentary.

inb4butheyattack"allsides"

hockeybub89 posted...

It has to suck so bad to be constantly seek out things to be offended by in video games, but I guess people only care when their team is being offended.

Why do you have questionable views on LGBT people then?

Because that's about the long and short of preachy "political" content I can think of that is in games.

People get offended by sexualized characters, people get offended by minorities or LGBT characters in games, no matter who the developers try to pander to SOMEONE is gonna get offended. It's a lose-lose situation all around.

hockeybub89 posted...

Notice how no one ever swears off GTA games for being heavy handed social commentary.

inb4butheyattack"allsides"

A sense of neutrality is important, actually. You mock the "all sides" notion, but it's important not to single out one 'side' of things if you actually want an audience to feel good about playing the game. Shows like South Park and American Dad understand this, and they have a roughly equal share of jokes poking fun at the right and the left. Same with King of the Hill. Meanwhile, TV shows like Supergirl completely miss that part of the equation and spent several episodes preaching about how bad Trump is (stopping just short of actually saying his name)...even though Trump isn't even president in that universe, and probably doesn't even exist at all.

It is possible to have political themes and make commentary as necessary without singling out one side or the other as being objectively 'wrong' in the context of the story. Some people have figured it out, but some others haven't.

Only if I get to pick which social injustices. Otherwise, no lol.

So you're completely incapable of naming a single game that you find objectionable. Got it. Tagging appropriately.

I think video games should be a platform for whatever the creators want it to be.

Gobstoppers12 posted...

A sense of neutrality is important, actually. You mock the "all sides" notion, but it's important not to single out one 'side' of things if you actually want an audience to feel good about playing the game.

His comment about the "all sides" thing is because Rockstar almost exclusively makes right-wing games and the "all sides" aspect is stuff like them having the LA Noire communist not actually be guilty (and that "communist" really needs quotes because he is basically anti-communist in every political sense), or GTA having a general disdain for authority. Inversely its actually "heavy" stuff is like how they cover basic "thug life" stereotypes in GTA (and by that I mean just play them straight) or replace the stuff that actually happened in LA Noire with caricatures to completely distort the reality of the situation (the "throw everyone out + doze everything for a highway" was real, but instead of it being a government conspiracy it was General Motors pulling the strings).

ellis123 posted...

Rockstar almost exclusively makes right-wing games

Ar....are you sure...?

Why shouldn't they be?

Yeah, if that's what they want to do. If people desperately want video games to be "art", that includes social and political messages. But some people take it too far, I remember ResetEra (or maybe it was NeoGAF at the time) wanting fucking Super Mario games to make political statements alluding to Trump. For me, I'd rather play a game that's just entertaining and fun.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

Yes.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

On that same note, "Space Nazis are bad" isn't exactly a spicy political take. It's hard to call it political just because the villains of the series are modeled after actual villains in history.

Gobstoppers12 posted...

Ar....are you sure...?

I mean, it's not like they make a lot of games so it's pretty easy to go by list (though ignoring random crap). And I suppose I thought it was obvious but it can be said: I was not including random crap that no one actually played or thinks about with Rockstar. Monster Truck Madness 64 could be argued as more popular amongst right wingers (it's about monster trucks...) isn't actually right wing. However, no one actually thinks of that game at all and pointing out that they've got large quantities of random crap that aren't talked about that are also not really a political thing/have absolutely no politics is just splitting hairs to ignore a point.

So yeah, I would say it's pretty easy to say that for the most part the political leanings of their games are pretty right wing. Nothing as far a the current Republicans, I suppose, but definitely in line with what could be described as "right of center" mentality.

Let's be honest about what's happening here: Gobstoppers12 liked Star Wars and purposefully puts blinders on regarding its politics (dismissing the obvious parallels that have been pointed out repeatedly ITT) because the dissonance of having his views criticized by a property he likes would be too much to bear.

Gobstoppers12 posted...

A sense of neutrality is important, actually. You mock the "all sides" notion, but it's important not to single out one 'side' of things if you actually want an audience to feel good about playing the game. Shows like South Park and American Dad understand this, and they have a roughly equal share of jokes poking fun at the right and the left. Same with King of the Hill. Meanwhile, TV shows like Supergirl completely miss that part of the equation and spent several episodes preaching about how bad Trump is (stopping just short of actually saying his name)...even though Trump isn't even president in that universe, and probably doesn't even exist at all.

It is possible to have political themes and make commentary as necessary without singling out one side or the other as being objectively 'wrong' in the context of the story. Some people have figured it out, but some others haven't.

Maybe you're just incapable of nuance. There is a middle ground between being ridiculously neutral and taking one side to an extreme.

Popular and famous art throughout the entirety of human history has picked "a side" on a topic. Most authors, directors, developers don't give every opinion on a given issue equally amounts of respect and criticism. Making a statement is actually the norm.

No one wants to be challenged any more. I continue to lament how our modern snowflake mentality has infected all sides. People want to feel good and safe instead uncomfortable and questioning everything they believe.

hockeybub89 posted...

Maybe you're just incapable of nuance.

Your supposition has been noted, assessed, and subsequently it has been thoroughly disregarded.

Intro2Logic posted...

Let's be honest about what's happening here: Gobstoppers12 liked Star Wars and purposefully puts blinders on regarding its politics (dismissing the obvious parallels that have been pointed out repeatedly ITT) because the dissonance of having his views criticized by a property he likes would be too much to bear.

I still like Star Wars, and any political parallels present in the story are vague enough to be taken as in-universe rather than as overt political statements about the modern world. Maybe it's just subtle, but in this case it's so subtle that it's easy to ignore and doesn't have any impact on my enjoyment of the films or their story.

So...If it's as intensely political as some of you make it out to be, it does a terrible job of expressing it, and is therefore a better series because of its inability to hammer in the statement it was (supposedly, according to some of y'all) trying to hammer in.

So...I love Star Wars. It's my favorite entertainment franchise in history. There's nothing that beats it.

Gobstoppers12 posted...

Your supposition has been noted, assessed, and subsequently it has been thoroughly disregarded

Why are you so opposed to intellectual stimulation? You consciously want to deny the obvious political statements of 95% of all art throughout human history, just so you can turn your brain off and watch aliens get hit with laser swords.

I sure hope you don't listen to music with lyrics beyond whatever gets played in TikToks or clubs.

ellis123 posted...

His comment about the "all sides" thing is because Rockstar almost exclusively makes right-wing games and the "all sides" aspect is stuff like them having the LA Noire communist not actually be guilty (and that "communist" really needs quotes because he is basically anti-communist in every political sense), or GTA having a general disdain for authority. Inversely its actually "heavy" stuff is like how they cover basic "thug life" stereotypes in GTA (and by that I mean just play them straight) or replace the stuff that actually happened in LA Noire with caricatures to completely distort the reality of the situation (the "throw everyone out + doze everything for a highway" was real, but instead of it being a government conspiracy it was General Motors pulling the strings).

Combining GTA and South Park having been brought up, I think they share a lot in their worldbuilding and message. Between being set in a world populated by the worst pastiches of American society and having a core cast focused around the idea of either personal gain or their own personal morals, framed typically as either being "preferable" or at least somewhat desirable, I get a libertarian bent from that.

Consider in both franchises people in prominence are reduced to ineffectual joke versions of themselves. No one actually "knows" what they're doing. Whenever they get involved, it's to get in the way of the main cast. It's anti-authority yet also anti-expert. It brings forward ideas only to mock them outright.

The idea of "making fun of both sides" is meant to imply that the individual is the best one to shape the world, whether it's the player in GTA or typically the four kids in South Park. That's a very libertarian perspective.

hockeybub89 posted...

You consciously want to deny the obvious political statements

I continue to assert that none of the "political statements" in Star Wars pertain to any one political administration or ideology (apart from, as mentioned before, 'evil is bad,'). You can fish after-the-fact examples out of interviews or post theories from bloggers all you like, but the fact of the matter is that the source material itself has no overt political biases or leanings.

Hell, maybe the Empire would have been a good thing for the galaxy if it hadn't been controlled by the Star Wars equivalent to the literal devil. There's no direct comparison between The Empire and any currently existing political party or administration, simply because nobody on planet earth is quite as evil and as powerful as Palpatine was. If it's a metaphor, it's childishly heavy-handed, and if Palpatine is supposed to represent a real person, then he just...doesn't, lol

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

Video games are art and just as valid as other forms of entertainment, until they behave like other forms of media. I guess gamers literally just mean the visuals are designed by artists.

Gobstoppers12 posted...

I continue to assert that none of the "political statements" in Star Wars pertain to any one political administration or ideology (apart from, as mentioned before, 'evil is bad,'). You can fish after-the-fact examples out of interviews or post theories from bloggers all you like, but the fact of the matter is that the source material itself has no overt political biases or leanings.

Hell, maybe the Empire would have been a good thing for the galaxy if it hadn't been controlled by the Star Wars equivalent to the literal devil. There's no direct comparison between The Empire and any currently existing political party or administration, simply because nobody on planet earth is quite as evil and as powerful as Palpatine was. If it's a metaphor, it's childishly heavy-handed, and if Palpatine is supposed to represent a real person, then he just...doesn't, lol

Was the Emperor the one that chose to destroy Alderaan?

hockeybub89 posted...

I sure hope you don't listen to music with lyrics beyond whatever gets played in TikToks or clubs.

Is this the part where you tell me how 'deep' music lyrics are? Lol, you act like I've never encountered art before. I elect to ignore most silly political statements in media (be it music, tv, movies, etc.) because I know where it's coming from. When somebody uses a popular platform to make a political statement, they're just casting their random intellectual chum into the waters so the other faux-intellectuals will latch on and make a big deal about it.

Meanwhile the rest of us--who don't give two shits about what George Lucas or Bono think about politics--can just enjoy the material produced for the rest of its aspects. I don't deny that there's a political message in a lot of movies/shows/songs/etc, but I choose to ignore that aspect because I know it's there, I know where it's coming from, and it doesn't affect me in any meaningful way.

Who doesn't want American social issues addressed by Chinese/Russian/French developers?

CyricZ posted...

Was the Emperor the one that chose to destroy Alderaan?

Tarkin pulled the trigger, but you can bet he had the Emperor's approval to do so.

Gobstoppers12 posted...

I elect to ignore most silly political statements in media

Must be nice to never have politics affect you.

Gobstoppers12 posted...

Tarkin pulled the trigger, but you can bet he had the Emperor's approval to do so.

Now who's trying to pull threads that aren't there.

sabin017 posted...

Who doesn't want American social issues addressed by Chinese/Russian/French developers?

How many Chinese or Russian devs are making games you've heard of?

CyricZ posted...

Combining GTA and South Park having been brought up, I think they share a lot in their worldbuilding and message. Between being set in a world populated by the worst pastiches of American society and having a core cast focused around the idea of either personal gain or their own personal morals, framed typically as either being "preferable" or at least somewhat desirable, I get a libertarian bent from that.

Consider in both franchises people in prominence are reduced to ineffectual joke versions of themselves. No one actually "knows" what they're doing. Whenever they get involved, it's to get in the way of the main cast. It's anti-authority yet also anti-expert. It brings forward ideas only to mock them outright.

The idea of "making fun of both sides" is meant to imply that the individual is the best one to shape the world, whether it's the player in GTA or typically the four kids in South Park. That's a very libertarian perspective.

Comparing GTA and South Park is apt, but it kind of doesn't give the message that you intend. Similarly pointing out that there is a Libertarian bent (big "L"... small "l" is communism) kind of doesn't change anything as the Libertarians take pride in them being more right than liberals in spite of having similar-ish goals when it comes to the economy.

You are also confusing "anti-authority" with "anti-intellectual." To be anti-authority doesn't mean that you do not respect experts in their craft, it means that you do not believe in systems that prioritize the well being of one person over the other or the power granted to one person over another. I wouldn't say that South Park is anti-intellectual either (you can make a case for Rockstar's stuff, but I feel that the argument towards pulp is more accurate). It's just willing to gloss over anything of real substance with fart jokes.

Gobstoppers12 posted...

I

So are you going to name some examples of preachy games yet?

And again, no one complains about games being preachy and real except when it's in reference to what they see as leftist social agendas.

Why does anyone still engage with Gob?

hockeybub89 posted...

So are you going to name some examples of preachy games yet?

He can't.

CyricZ posted...

Now who's trying to pull threads that aren't there.

We can make certain assumptions based on the Imperial command structure. Tarkin was sent by Palpatine to oversee and command the Death Star, which I'm sure included protocols and guidelines as to precisely how the Death Star should be implemented. There's never any indication that Tarkin has gone rogue or made some kind of radical decision within the context of his service to the Empire.

Vader never comments on the Emperor's disapproval, none of the other officers or crewmen take any issue with it, etc. etc.

So we can, based on the context of the film, safely assume that destroying Alderaan was well within the range of Tarkin's assigned duties. There's nothing present within the material to suggest otherwise.

Gobstoppers12 posted...

Is this the part where you tell me how 'deep' music lyrics are? Lol, you act like I've never encountered art before. I elect to ignore most silly political statements in media (be it music, tv, movies, etc.) because I know where it's coming from. When somebody uses a popular platform to make a political statement, they're just casting their random intellectual chum into the waters so the other faux-intellectuals will latch on and make a big deal about it.

Meanwhile the rest of us--who don't give two shits about what George Lucas or Bono think about politics--can just enjoy the material produced for the rest of its aspects. I don't deny that there's a political message in a lot of movies/shows/songs/etc, but I choose to ignore that aspect because I know it's there, I know where it's coming from, and it doesn't affect me in any meaningful way.

"I'm the real intellectual because I ignore any time art acts intellectual" certainly is a take. Making a statement is literally a core of art.

You seriously think every artist throughout history only makes statements with their art so faux intellectuals while praise them?

hockeybub89 posted...

"I'm the real intellectual because I ignore any time art acts intellectual" certainly is a take. Making a statement is literally a core of art.

Ignoring the statement is literally a core of enjoying art.

One of my favorite things is that song by Nirvana, "In Bloom," in which Kurt Cobain basically cries for 4 minutes and 14 seconds about how a bunch of Nirvana fans don't pay close enough attention to the meaning of his songs. It's like he's trying to tell people "Bro my lyrics mean things, don't just think of them as catchy songs, pay attention to my ART" and most people just kept right on not caring.

If you're producing popular TV, music, etc. you should probably expect the vast majority of people not to care about your personal political takes on shit. Most audiences aren't looking to be preached at, and they don't care enough about your inner turmoil to really dig into the precise 'meaning' of your lyrics.

It's the reality of producing entertainment. People want cool, catchy, fun, colorful stuff to experience. The political shit takes a far, far back seat on the plane to the rest of that stuff.

Gobstoppers12 posted...

Ignoring the statement is literally a core of enjoying art.

You seriously think every artist throughout history only makes statements with their art so faux intellectuals will praise them?

Gobstoppers12 posted...

Ignoring the statement is literally a core of enjoying art.

"Art is in the eye of the beholder."

Gobstoppers12 posted...

I elect to ignore most silly political statements in media (be it music, tv, movies, etc.) because I know where it's coming from

But that's just the point I've made. It's not that Star Wars doesn't have politics, it's just that you choose to ignore it and dismiss it as silly.

Intro2Logic posted...

But that's just the point I've made. It's not that Star Wars doesn't have politics, it's just that you choose to ignore it and dismiss it as silly.

Star Wars' politics are particularly flimsy, though. I ignore it in most things, but in Star Wars it's especially easy to ignore. Because it barely exists in parallel to anything in the real world. Star Wars isn't like Elysium, in which there's a very, very clear political message of "Rich people have unlimited resources but are still jerks to poor people just because they want to be"