Current Events > Favorite programming language?

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TheMikh posted...

I've been using PHP for 15 years, so while I've used an assortment of different languages, I inevitably fall back on PHP for casual prototyping and inevitably anything that doesn't specifically require another language.

PHP is almost entirely top-down, and allows for ridiculous amounts of sloppiness.
That's why it's so awesome for experimenting.

DevsBro posted...

I honestly wouldn't even call HTML a programming language. It defines a document instead of a program. Of course, I also wouldn't call PHP, Javascript, Ragel or SQL programming languages either so maybe my classifications are a bit stringent.

HTML is literally a markup language. So you're absolutely right. I have no idea about the things HTML5 add in terms of logic, but fundamentally it's as you say - just describing how data should be presented. PHP and Javascript are obviously programming languages, although I understand people's aversion to them. SQL is a query language, but I suspect it's Turing complete at this point. Anyway its purpose is so specific I wouldn't expect anyone to seriously argue it should be used as a programming language. Ragel I never heard of.
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CRON posted...

What do you guys even program? Games, software, other things?

I mostly do scientific programming for research purposes. Simulation, signal processing, statistics. It's a personal codebase which lets me play very fast and loose with a lot of things "real" developers would be severely restricted by.
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I'm strictly a hobbyist programmer, but I've whipped up a few applications for work to make my life easier

CRON posted...

What do you guys even program? Games, software, other things?

augmented/virtual reality map and geo display software

kinda like google earth I suppose, for a familair comparison point
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DevsBro posted...

I honestly wouldn't even call HTML a programming language. It defines a document instead of a program. Of course, I also wouldn't call PHP, Javascript, Ragel or SQL programming languages either so maybe my classifications are a bit stringent.

Html definitely isnt a programming language. I'd say javascript is though
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Javascript is deceptively powerful, it's almost obscene

Key posted...

DevsBro posted...

I honestly wouldn't even call HTML a programming language. It defines a document instead of a program. Of course, I also wouldn't call PHP, Javascript, Ragel or SQL programming languages either so maybe my classifications are a bit stringent.

Html definitely isnt a programming language. I'd say javascript is though

I think technically speaking they're not programming languages. Though I hate it when people feel the need to butt in and correct people who use the incorrect term. It's not a whole lot different from when people get bent out of shape because someone said "Linux" instead of "GNU/Linux". I don't think DevsBro was being a dick about it, I'm just saying people like that are out there and they need to chill out.
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TheAnthraxBunny posted...

I think technically speaking they're not programming languages.

What, exactly, makes PHP and JS not programming languages?

Questionmarktarius posted...

TheAnthraxBunny posted...

I think technically speaking they're not programming languages.

What, exactly, makes PHP and JS not programming languages?

They're interpreted. Though I decided to look it up again and it turns out that scripting languages are still considered programming languages. TIL
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the line between interpreted and compiled is pretty hazy nowadays anyway. basically all browsers use JIT compilation for their javascript and I think most interpreted languages have something similar built in
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TheAnthraxBunny posted...

Questionmarktarius posted...

TheAnthraxBunny posted...

I think technically speaking they're not programming languages.

What, exactly, makes PHP and JS not programming languages?

They're interpreted. Though I decided to look it up again and it turns out that scripting languages are still considered programming languages. TIL

Even interpreted languages can be compiled to bytecode. Case in point: HipHop and its successors.
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even x86 instructions are interpreted by the processor into its own machine code. assembly hasn't been raw metal for decades

treewojima posted...

even x86 instructions are interpreted by the processor into its own machine code. assembly hasn't been raw metal for decades

Assembly compiles to straight binary. You can actually rewrite every single assembly line as straight up machine language if you really wanted to. This is typically only done for low level vulnerability research such as the recent exploits done into Intel's IME.
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yeah, idk where I was going with that thought. I'm also high as shit right now though *shrugs*

Tyranthraxus posted...

treewojima posted...

even x86 instructions are interpreted by the processor into its own machine code. assembly hasn't been raw metal for decades

Assembly compiles to straight binary. You can actually rewrite every single assembly line as straight up machine language if you really wanted to. This is typically only done for low level vulnerability research such as the recent exploits done into Intel's IME.

The point is that x86 processors don't actually directly implement the x86 instruction set, it's interpreted by microcode into the actual basic instructions that the circuitry supports.
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TheAnthraxBunny posted...

Questionmarktarius posted...

TheAnthraxBunny posted...

I think technically speaking they're not programming languages.

What, exactly, makes PHP and JS not programming languages?

They're interpreted. Though I decided to look it up again and it turns out that scripting languages are still considered programming languages. TIL

You don't use PHP to write a program. You use it to define the implementation of a program (the server). That is to say, the server is its own program that consults your PHP code at a step in its own algorithms.

This is more conceptual than the difference between interpreted and compiled, which is fortunate since as mentioned, those concepts are becoming less distinct and plus, many languages can be either.

For example, Java is (traditionally?) interpreted but it's definitely a programming language because the result is an executable/library.
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I'm most familiar with C++ and Java.
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DevsBro posted...

You don't use PHP to write a program. You use it to define the implementation of a program (the server).

I'm sorry about your traumatic brain injury from when you were hit on the head.
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@DevsBro posted...

You don't use PHP to write a program. You use it to define the implementation of a program (the server). That is to say, the server is its own program that consults your PHP code at a step in its own algorithms.

By that logic, couldn't you also say that C++ code defines the implementation of a program that will be created by the compiler? The compiler is a program in its own right that takes your code as input and creates an executable as its output. The only difference is whether a program reads your code in advance (compiled) or on use (interpreted). Not to mention that some languages support both - Python is interpreted in the CPython implementation, but there are alternative Python implementations like PyPy that use compilation, even though the Python code itself being compiled is the same as if you ran it with an interpreter.

mtkennerly posted...

@DevsBro posted...

You don't use PHP to write a program. You use it to define the implementation of a program (the server). That is to say, the server is its own program that consults your PHP code at a step in its own algorithms.

By that logic, couldn't you also say that C++ code defines the implementation of a program that will be created by the compiler? The compiler is a program in its own right that takes your code as input and creates an executable as its output. The only difference is whether a program reads your code in advance (compiled) or on use (interpreted). Not to mention that some languages support both - Python is interpreted in the CPython implementation, but there are alternative Python implementations like PyPy that use compilation, even though the Python code itself being compiled is the same as if you ran it with an interpreter.

funny you mention that.

gcc -O0 and gcc -O3 and gcc -Os all produce dramatically different binaries.
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C++.
Python is trash and I hate it.
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mtkennerly posted...

@DevsBro posted...

You don't use PHP to write a program. You use it to define the implementation of a program (the server). That is to say, the server is its own program that consults your PHP code at a step in its own algorithms.

By that logic, couldn't you also say that C++ code defines the implementation of a program that will be created by the compiler? The compiler is a program in its own right that takes your code as input and creates an executable as its output. The only difference is whether a program reads your code in advance (compiled) or on use (interpreted). Not to mention that some languages support both - Python is interpreted in the CPython implementation, but there are alternative Python implementations like PyPy that use compilation, even though the Python code itself being compiled is the same as if you ran it with an interpreter.

I don't see how that's even a little similar. The server is its own program, which in addition to the logic defined by your PHP code, performs a variety of functions relevant to the use case of the end user, including loading files and scripts, handling messages passed over socket and parsing and forming HTTP messages.
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DevsBro posted...

I don't see how that's even a little similar. The server is its own program, which in addition to the logic defined by your PHP code, performs a variety of functions relevant to the use case of the end user, including loading files and scripts, handling messages passed over socket and parsing and forming HTTP messages.

Under your FUBAR definition of a program, only the operating system counts because everything else is just sitting on top of it.

You sound crazier than Richard Stallman.
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DevsBro posted...

You don't use PHP to write a program. You use it to define the implementation of a program (the server). That is to say, the server is its own program that consults your PHP code at a step in its own algorithms.

To the contrary, the server (e.g. apache) just facilitates the interfacing between http requests and the PHP interpreter (and displays its output in a browser friendly manner), the interpreter which in turn manages script loading, execution, file and database access, etc.

The server is not integral to PHP's operations, and PHP itself can run programs without one.
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Now, if you want to argue that PHP isn't really doing it because it's making syscalls that then utilize the kernel for the real heavy lifting, that's a valid assertion - but so does the "server" software, and indeed most all binaries running on a system.
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TheMikh posted...

Now, if you want to argue that PHP isn't really doing it because it's making syscalls that then utilize the kernel for the real heavy lifting, that's a valid assertion - but so does the "server" software, and indeed most all binaries running on a system.

If PHP isn't a "language", then BASIC never was (give or take whatever the hell VB does to code).

C# is amazing. Also, fuck python, semantic whitespace has no place in programming
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Questionmarktarius posted...

TheMikh posted...

Now, if you want to argue that PHP isn't really doing it because it's making syscalls that then utilize the kernel for the real heavy lifting, that's a valid assertion - but so does the "server" software, and indeed most all binaries running on a system.

If PHP isn't a "language", then BASIC never was (give or take whatever the hell VB does to code).

PHP is absolutely a language. I'm disputing the claims of the poster earlier downplaying the responsibilities of its interpreter and attributing it to the server software.
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If PHP isn't a language because of the Apache web server then Java isn't a language because of the JVM / JRE.
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-l___________l- posted...

Why is barely anyone talking about Java? I like Java :(

Also it's WAY less annoying than C++

I think JavaScript programming is really fun too.

because there's no reason to use Java when you could use C#.

anyway, I don't program too much. I only really need small scripts to save myself some time at work, so I do that all in either python or just shell script. The tabs annoy me, since I can't just copy paste from vim into notepad++ and back again, but it does the job.
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Probably mushrooms but religion and military is some mighty powerful programming
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Not gonna lie, this topic surprised me with how many people said C++ was their favorite language.

I question it.

Those who claim to like C++ likely just don't know enough yet.

Okay, so here's a test.

Who can explain to me when/where/why we use std::launder
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C++ definitely isn't my favorite. Plenty of stuff like that ^ I don't know about and never took time to learn. Maybe if I had more formal training in it or something.
I greatly enjoyed C# though I haven't used it a ton lately.
Work has me using Python a lot, which I find just dandy
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MutantJohn posted...

Not gonna lie, this topic surprised me with how many people said C++ was their favorite language.

I question it.

Those who claim to like C++ likely just don't know enough yet.

Okay, so here's a test.

Who can explain to me when/where/why we use std::launder

Here's a better test

https://hackernoon.com/so-you-think-you-know-c-8d4e2cd6f6a6
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MutantJohn posted...

Not gonna lie, this topic surprised me with how many people said C++ was their favorite language.

I question it.

Those who claim to like C++ likely just don't know enough yet.

Okay, so here's a test.

Who can explain to me when/where/why we use std::launder

template metaprogramming
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C# I'm just a rookie and it seems like the Microsoft ecosystem has it all over open source when it comes to support and documentation, which atm is important.
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TheMikh posted...

template metaprogramming

Don't cuss like that.
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Tyranthraxus posted...

MutantJohn posted...

Not gonna lie, this topic surprised me with how many people said C++ was their favorite language.

I question it.

Those who claim to like C++ likely just don't know enough yet.

Okay, so here's a test.

Who can explain to me when/where/why we use std::launder

Here's a better test

https://hackernoon.com/so-you-think-you-know-c-8d4e2cd6f6a6

That's a C test not a C++ test. And I wouldnt call it a good measure on actual ability to write in the language.

MutantJohn posted...

Not gonna lie, this topic surprised me with how many people said C++ was their favorite language.

I question it.

Those who claim to like C++ likely just don't know enough yet.

Okay, so here's a test.

Who can explain to me when/where/why we use std::launder

I did find it odd the high percentage of C++ favorites but I assumed it mostly had to do with some of them not being actual programmers and instead people who just tried a little programming and being told to start with c++. As for awhile everywhere you went online you'd have people recommended it because it was the language for "real programmers."
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I started programming 10 years ago.
Went to University for it.
At my Uni Python has become the standard, and I hate it.
C++ is where I started and did my first 3 years with.
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I have no idea how people can enjoy programming in C++ but then again I've been at it for literally less than a year so what I know couldn't fill crumpled up napkin.
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Key posted...

That's a C test not a C++ test. And I wouldnt call it a good measure on actual ability to write in the language.

Is vanilla C even really used much anymore?

Questionmarktarius posted...

Key posted...

That's a C test not a C++ test. And I wouldnt call it a good measure on actual ability to write in the language.

Is vanilla C even really used much anymore?

Yes for really simple embedded programming / small devices / smaller PC components like sound cards.

If it's really simple you probably just use Assembly though.
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Tyranthraxus posted...

If it's really simple you probably just use Assembly though.

Well... I guess.
ARM assembly is strangely intuitive, for assembly.

Questionmarktarius posted...

Key posted...

That's a C test not a C++ test. And I wouldnt call it a good measure on actual ability to write in the language.

Is vanilla C even really used much anymore?

It still has some uses especially for low level stuff. Most OS' are written in C. And so are most interpreters. The standard python interpreter is actually called cpython and is written in C. I actually had a old roommate who pretty much exclusively used C
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DevsBro posted...

TheAnthraxBunny posted...

Questionmarktarius posted...

TheAnthraxBunny posted...

I think technically speaking they're not programming languages.

What, exactly, makes PHP and JS not programming languages?

They're interpreted. Though I decided to look it up again and it turns out that scripting languages are still considered programming languages. TIL

You don't use PHP to write a program. You use it to define the implementation of a program (the server). That is to say, the server is its own program that consults your PHP code at a step in its own algorithms.

This is more conceptual than the difference between interpreted and compiled, which is fortunate since as mentioned, those concepts are becoming less distinct and plus, many languages can be either.

For example, Java is (traditionally?) interpreted but it's definitely a programming language because the result is an executable/library.

This is 100% bullshit.
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IllegalAlien posted...

DevsBro posted...

TheAnthraxBunny posted...

Questionmarktarius posted...

TheAnthraxBunny posted...

I think technically speaking they're not programming languages.

What, exactly, makes PHP and JS not programming languages?

They're interpreted. Though I decided to look it up again and it turns out that scripting languages are still considered programming languages. TIL

You don't use PHP to write a program. You use it to define the implementation of a program (the server). That is to say, the server is its own program that consults your PHP code at a step in its own algorithms.

This is more conceptual than the difference between interpreted and compiled, which is fortunate since as mentioned, those concepts are becoming less distinct and plus, many languages can be either.

For example, Java is (traditionally?) interpreted but it's definitely a programming language because the result is an executable/library.

This is 100% bullshit.

No, hes right.
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"PHP: Hypertext Preprocessor (or simply PHP) is a general-purpose programming language originally designed for web development. It was originally created by Rasmus Lerdorf in 1994; the PHP reference implementation is now produced by The PHP Group."

"JavaScript, often abbreviated as JS, is a high-level, interpreted programming language that conforms to the ECMAScript specification. JavaScript has curly-bracket syntax, dynamic typing, prototype-based object-orientation, and first-class functions."

You'd realllllllly need to be grasping at some semantic straws to argue that PHP or JS are not programming languages.
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