Current Events > Why has no game even attempted Dark Souls 1 world design...

(+) Yeah! (+)

Im talking even attempted.

They abandoned that for every sequel and successor.

The game itself inspired so many copycats and clones that its changed the video game landscape forever. And yet no one has even attempted to recreate one of, if not the best things about that game.

I get how difficult it would be. Its insane how well it works in DS1. But for no game to even try to recreate that experience Is puzzling.

idk about you but I NEED something like that again. No other game does exploration like DS1 and the feeling of uncovering the secrets of that world are second to none.
---

shockthemonkey posted...

What is different about it compared to other games? I played briefly but couldnt get very far.

Everything is interconnected. The way the world is set up you are constantly finding and opening alternate routes through places. Entire areas can be hidden. Youre just in this constant state of wonderment as you explore the world and start piecing together how areas relate to each other. You go down one route and before you even realize it youre back in an area you recognize.

It takes you a while but once you start to figure it out the world makes sense to you with zero map or anything like that. You have this experience with it so you know s bunch of various ways to get from A to B. Which also makes subsequent play through so interesting. You know the routes but also gear placement plays an interesting role too. Youre given a lot of freedom in where you can go, even at the very beginning of the game. And if youre going in with a specific build in mind it can change how you play through the game

Its like no other game Ive ever played. If video games had a hall of fame or Oscars or whatever form high acknowledgement. DS1 level design would be there in a heartbeat.
---

Bumpo
---

darksiders iii
---

TwoDoorPunkCab posted...

darksiders iii

Is it actually? Or is this some weak ass example
---

Super Metroid is a good precursor, imo.

And, yeah, world design is one of the selling points of DS1.
---

They broke the mold with Dark Souls 1. Literally.
---

Bloodborne kind of did it. Not nearly as well, though.

One thing that really made DS1 stand out was that you had to actually walk between areas for the first half of the game. It made getting the Lordvessel a huge reward; and even then, you still could only warp to certain bonfires. Every other Souls game just let you warp anywhere from the start, so you never really cared as much about unlocking shortcuts.

Yeah was gonna say Bloodborne as well. Theres a few hidden areas iirc
---

Metroid Prime seemed like an earlier version.

From what I remember, anyway.

Been like fifteen years.
---

Akagami_Shanks posted...

Yeah was gonna say Bloodborne as well. Theres a few hidden areas iirc

The link between Forbidden Woods & Iosefka's Clinic blew my mind.
---

SwayM posted...

Youre given a lot of freedom in where you can go, even at the very beginning of the game. And if youre going in with a specific build in mind it can change how you play through the game.

That's also the main reason I hate Dark Souls: Remastered so damn much. If you go out of your way to hunt down certain weapons and/or upgrade materials early, you can pretty much ruin matchmaking for the majority of your playthrough.

The very first thing I did when I bought DS:R on Xbox was make an Intelligence character, loop around through Valley of the Drakes into Darkroot Garden, dash past the Hydra, and get the ember. By the time I grinded enough Green Shards and Blue Chunks to get my weapon to +4 Enchanted, I realized I wouldn't be able to be summoned to help anyone until late game. I ended up trading the game in at that point.

I like the sense of scale it has. You're on this massive castle/city of the gods with its own sort of mix of the natural and the urban. You see all the massive walls creating rings within rings and you only have just one small portion of the view at a time, gradually discovering more pieces of the picture. It gives the feeling that you're in a very mythological world, which is further compounded by the successive games being thousands of years later so it really is like you're living a myth. Going back and playing 1 after 2 and 3 has this very unexpected "prequel" or "backstory" feeling to it despite being the original.

And unlike the successive games, you don't fast travel. That part is huge. It makes the world feel so much more real and seamless when you have to actually make the trek yourself. Other games with this philosophy of no/limited fast travel always end up being super immersive, like Far Cry 2.

Unironically the only game I've even played that's close is vanilla WoW. It's really good but it's still an MMO and you have to have friends. The main thing I love about Dark Souls, in addition to the interconnectivity you mentioned, is that the areas have actual terrain. You'll walk up and down tiny hills and the paths will be winding and unpredictable. In DS3 and Bloodborne the terrain is more of an illusion and the paths are very very flat.
---

Basically

Metroidvania in 3D?
---

Zerocide posted...

Basically

Metroidvania in 3D?

Kinda, it's on the same track, but it's really not a proper comparison.

RoboLaserGandhi posted...

And unlike the successive games, you don't fast travel. That part is huge.

SO true. This is the single biggest thing. Fast travel disconnected the entire world
---

hollow knight
---

the map design of the first dark souls has an absurd amount of things going for it. it's really great.

it's been said, but just about everything in the first half of the game is available right away. which lets you replay it however you want, but it also lets you explore it however you want on your first go.

it also rewards that exploration: my first run, i literally would go in one direction and stop when the game made me. i scoffed at the idea of 'where i'm supposed to go'. i saw all three of the orange fog walls and read the 'sealed by the great lord's power' messages. i came out of these situations better-prepared for the return trip. in particular, the tomb of the giants; they give you this room with a bunch of huge skeletons in it, with no way to sneak in. something good has to be in there, right?

they do the same thing in the demon ruins, only it's a gauntlet of taurus demons. twice. they don't let you leave empty-handed. and they leave you with some insanely memorable landmarks. big orange fog doors with ominous text.

the interconnectivity is great and this game has absolute shortcut porn going on. but it also has what seems to be an implicit 'no wrong ways' design philosophy; you're never necessarily wasting your time by poking around.
---

Lava castle in the sky though.
---

WalkingLobsters posted...

hollow knight

For sure

Hollow Knight has plenty of those moments of "oh, I'm back here, cool"

It also encourages you to make mental maps of things since the compass costs you a slot to use it
---

RoboLaserGandhi posted...

And unlike the successive games, you don't fast travel.

Except for the part that you do
---

SSJKirby posted...

RoboLaserGandhi posted...

And unlike the successive games, you don't fast travel.

Except for the part that you do

Well that's once you hit the late game and you've already explored just about all there is to explore. And it's not literally every bonfire, only a carefully selected few.

I prefer having all bonfires accessible for fast travel, Miyazaki clearly got lucky making the world of Dark Souls 1 and can't replicate it so at least he makes it easier for us
---

DarthWendy posted...

Lava castle in the sky though.

Thats one of the most laughable things about Dark Souls 2. I mean DS1 definitely has this weird world, so many different and unique areas and every level is more nonsensical than the next and theyre all stacked on top of each other.

But like another poster here mentioned, the way its connected and how it unravels it feels Like this fantasy world that is completely unique. It has the intrigue and wonderment. The way you can actually see where youre going going and where you came from. And not In just in one area. Everythings stacked. You get different looks at the various pieces of the world from various vantage points.

In DS 2 you take an elevator ride up from a poison swamp and suddenly youre in a lava castle. No warning whatsoever

I know its a daunting task to try and recreate DS1 level design but I dont think anyones even tried to attempt it since.

Bloodborne is a bad example too because Iosefkas clinic is like the only example of it. When it happened in the game I had similar feelings of DS1 but they were quickly squashed when I realized there was literally no point to having this connection back to the city of Yharnam. Didnt open up any potential for different runs.

And BB had such potential for that level design too. The city could have been so intricately designed and layered.

Oh well. Still a great game
---

SSJKirby posted...

I prefer having all bonfires accessible for fast travel, Miyazaki clearly got lucky making the world of Dark Souls 1 and can't replicate it so at least he makes it easier for us

Lol if you think it was luck
---

every strokes their junk to Dark Souls 1 world design and lambastes Dark Souls 2 for it, yet Bloodborne has ok world design and Dark Souls 3 world design is bad

why can't this god tier developer that everyone will sacrifice their first born to make a good world anymore.
---

I just assumed that in-canon the Earthen Peak elevator used some kind of spatial sorcery to link the top of the tower with Iron Keep via portal.

IRL it's laziness

IIRC Fromsoft has said Sekiro's level design will be much more like Dark Souls 1 than the other soulsborne games

SSJKirby posted...

prefer having all bonfires accessible for fast travel

unfortunately this is the mainstream opinion that killed the series :(
---

SSJKirby posted...

every strokes their junk to Dark Souls 1 world design and lambastes Dark Souls 2 for it, yet Bloodborne has ok world design and Dark Souls 3 world design is bad

why can't this god tier developer that everyone will sacrifice their first born to make a good world anymore.

Is there a point to this post?
---

I can't think of anything exactly like DS1 but I can think of a few things that are pretty close.

It's more of a puzzle game, but you should try Antichamber. It's designed to be intentionally frustrating and have you wandering around in circles for hours. Just when you think you've made new ground, you find yourself back in the place you were stuck in 3 hours ago.
---

SwayM posted...

SSJKirby posted...

every strokes their junk to Dark Souls 1 world design and lambastes Dark Souls 2 for it, yet Bloodborne has ok world design and Dark Souls 3 world design is bad

why can't this god tier developer that everyone will sacrifice their first born to make a good world anymore.

Is there a point to this post?

if you have terrible reading comprehension it's ok
---

Tyranthraxus posted...

It's designed to be intentionally frustrating and have you wandering around in circles for hours. Just when you think you've made new ground, you find yourself back in the place you were stuck in 3 hours ago.

Ooo fuck that I'd rather rip out my toenails

SSJKirby posted...

SwayM posted...

SSJKirby posted...

every strokes their junk to Dark Souls 1 world design and lambastes Dark Souls 2 for it, yet Bloodborne has ok world design and Dark Souls 3 world design is bad

why can't this god tier developer that everyone will sacrifice their first born to make a good world anymore.

Is there a point to this post?

if you have terrible reading comprehension it's ok

Yeah no point. As I figured.
---

RoboLaserGandhi posted...

I just assumed that in-canon the Earthen Peak elevator used some kind of spatial sorcery to link the top of the tower with Iron Keep via portal.

IRL it's laziness

I read a fan theory years ago that Drangleic's geographic layout was distorted due to the main character's deteriorating mental state. I mean, it is discussed right in the opening cinematic that the MC is afflicted by the curse (Darksign), has an "ailing mind," and is already losing sense of past and future. According to that theory, the paths between areas like Earthen Peak -> Iron Keep or Heide's Tower -> No Man's Wharf were geographically much longer than how the character experiences/remembers it.

I've also seen one more recently that says the areas were physically distorted to be closer together than they originally were. Makes a lot of sense considering Dark Souls 3 did the same thing with its world.

I still agree it's just the result of IRL laziness though.

Vertania posted...

RoboLaserGandhi posted...

I just assumed that in-canon the Earthen Peak elevator used some kind of spatial sorcery to link the top of the tower with Iron Keep via portal.

IRL it's laziness

I read a fan theory years ago that Drangleic's geographic layout was distorted due to the main character's deteriorating mental state. I mean, it is discussed right in the opening cinematic that the MC is afflicted by the curse (Darksign), has an "ailing mind," and is already losing sense of past and future. According to that theory, the paths between areas like Earthen Peak -> Iron Keep or Heide's Tower -> No Man's Wharf were geographically much longer than how the character experiences/remembers it.

I've also seen one more recently that says the areas were physically distorted to be closer together than they originally were. Makes a lot of sense considering Dark Souls 3 did the same thing with its world.

I still agree it's just the result of IRL laziness though.

Lol theres some far reach fam theories.
---

SwayM posted...

Is there a point to this post?

If it wasn't luck, why do all the sequels fail to live up to it?
---

SwayM posted...

Lol theres some far reach fam theories.

idk, it actually seems more likely than From just straight up overlooking seemingly stupid mistakes like the Earthen Peak elevator. Besides, DkS3 definitely does establish that it's possible for the geography to be distorted.

The Souls games lend themselves to all kinds of fan theories. That's one of the beauties of having the lore told through obscure means. On that note, my favorite one is that Demon's Souls was a prequel to both Bloodborne and the Dark Souls series, depening on the ending.

Dragon239 posted...

SwayM posted...

Is there a point to this post?

If it wasn't luck, why do all the sequels fail to live up to it?

Because they didnt take it as a design priority and didnt put the effort in?

If it was luck why didnt any sequel or ripoff half ass its way into something remotely close?
---

Vertania posted...

SwayM posted...

Lol theres some far reach fam theories.

idk, it actually seems more likely than From just straight up overlooking seemingly stupid mistakes like the Earthen Peak elevator. Besides, DkS3 definitely does establish that it's possible for the geography to be distorted.

The Souls games lend themselves to all kinds of fan theories. That's one of the beauties of having the lore told through obscure means. On that note, my favorite one is that Demon's Souls was a prequel to both Bloodborne and the Dark Souls series, depening on the ending.

Its an interesting theory but I see no basis for it. Had there been a clear implementation of it I would like it as a design element but thats just reaching as far as Im concerned. I cant remember anything like that in DS3. Not saying thats its not there I just dont remember.
---

SwayM posted...

I cant remember anything like that in DS3. Not saying thats its not there I just dont remember.

Really? The main plot of the game revolved around it...

The whole world was physically converging around the First Flame, preparing for it to be snuffed out. In Kiln of the First Flame, you can even see cities in the background being twisted and distorted towards the flame. Anor Londo was also apparently pulled out of Lordran towards it.

Plus, From isn't known for "clearly implementing" things story-wise. Vaguely mentioning the character's deterioration in DS2's intro cinematic was probably as clear as they wanted to make it.

Vertania posted...

SwayM posted...

I cant remember anything like that in DS3. Not saying thats its not there I just dont remember.

Really? The main plot of the game revolved around it...

The whole world was physically converging around the First Flame, preparing for it to be snuffed out. In Kiln of the First Flame, you can even see cities in the background being twisted and distorted towards the flame. Anor Londo was also apparently pulled out of Lordran towards it.

Plus, From isn't known for "clearly implementing" things story-wise. Vaguely mentioning the character's deterioration in DS2's intro cinematic was probably as clear as they wanted to make it.

Yeah the world itself is going though some shit. But it does not the PC interpretation of it.
---

I imagine mainly because it takes an incredible amount of effort and forethought. DS2 is the only one to really throw it completely out the window and go completely batshit stupid though, DS3 and Bloodborne both try in limited capacity and sort of fail.

I don't think I've ever felt more like I was on an actual adventure in a video game than the first half of DS1. Going deeper and deeper into the earth, and then rising back up and climbing higher and higher until you literally reach the city of the gods is just... It's kind of amazing
---

Dark souls is overrated. The only cool part is sequence breaking and skipping most of blight town. I guess the connected world contributes to the atmosphere but that's about it
---

I also like how theres parts i like forget about because theyre so well hidden. Also the well hidden stuff is well hidden. I couldnt even use my years of vg experience to find shit.
---

SoundNetwork posted...

Dark souls is overrated. The only cool part is sequence breaking and skipping most of blight town. I guess the connected world contributes to the atmosphere but that's about it

Careful around this edge guys. Dont wanna see a good soul get cut
---

@TheOnionKnight
---