Current Events > Kotaku: "The Controversy Over Bethesda's 'Game Engine' Is Misguided"

(+) Yeah! (+)

https://kotaku.com/the-controversy-over-bethesdas-game-engine-is-misguided-1830435351
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not clicking because fuck kotaku

but the engine is trash
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CE is just gonna say hurr durr cucktaku and not read it, even if its right

Whoops, ninjad
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kotaku pumping out clickbait garbage well i never
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There's some irony that this is coming from Jason Schreier who has done a lot of negative reporting around Destiny and Destiny 2.

One of the criticisms of that game is that Bungie is still using the same outdated engine they've had since at least Halo Reach.

Guess Bungie's checks aren't as good as Bethesda's.
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It's an informative article that the typical gamers will disregard so they can get outraged over shit they don't really understand.
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Ahh Bethesda slurpers.
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dave_is_slick posted...

Ahh Bethesda slurpers.

The article isn't defending Bethesda.
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Turtlemayor333 posted...

There's some irony that this is coming from Jason Schreier who has done a lot of negative reporting around Destiny and Destiny 2.

One of the criticisms of that game is that Bungie is still using the same outdated engine they've had since at least Halo Reach.

Guess Bungie's checks aren't as good as Bethesda's.

This might be a worthwhile point if the engine has been the focus of Schreier's reporting on Destiny. Has it?
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Vyrulisse posted...

That's a pretty dumb comparison considering the second example involved embarassing two specific developers.
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user Prism has gone off the deep end
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Bethesda got exposed this gen
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I don't even care about the graphics, so that's already off the table. The fact is, Bethesda has made buggy af games on their engine for years. I like them regardless, but I don't know how far that's going to extend into the future.
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Bethesda deserves all the flak they get for their shit engine. Their games are always a buggy, broken mess requiring community patches to be borderline enjoyable.

codey posted...

I don't even care about the graphics, so that's already off the table. The fact is, Bethesda has made buggy af games on their engine for years. I like them regardless, but I don't know how far that's going to extend into the future.

The point of the article is that the engine isn't automatically at fault and it's a pretty pointless, specific criticism.

Would a Bethesda game suddenly not be buggy or have awful animations if they used a new engine? Nope. That's not a guarantee at all. Is the engine itself dated because they have used it since Oblivion? No because that engine has been drastically changed and updated over the years. Plenty of games use tech that has foundations that go back decades.
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Regardless it is a shit engine.
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Antifar posted...

Turtlemayor333 posted...

There's some irony that this is coming from Jason Schreier who has done a lot of negative reporting around Destiny and Destiny 2.

One of the criticisms of that game is that Bungie is still using the same outdated engine they've had since at least Halo Reach.

Guess Bungie's checks aren't as good as Bethesda's.

This might be a worthwhile point if the engine has been the focus of Schreier's reporting on Destiny. Has it?

Yes.

One famous example is that he reported in order to move a single rock, Destiny developers had to let the rendering run overnight due to how slow and outdated their development tools are.

People are using "engine" as shorthand, I don't see the big deal.
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Literally linking to Kotaku
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I wish Bethesda would fix the memory address, and leaking issues. Stop the game from crashing half the time.
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Smashingpmkns posted...

Regardless it is a shit engine.

But is there another engine out there that is designed for Bethesda games? Probably not.

Turtlemayor333 posted...

Yes.

One famous example is that he reported in order to move a single rock, Destiny developers had to let the rendering run overnight due to how slow and outdated their development tools are.

People are using "engine" as shorthand, I don't see the big deal.

Do they still have this problem today though?

Like he reported the Bioware team had a lot of issues implementing RPG systems into the Frostbite engine because they simply did not exist. But years later those systems are in place. They impacted the development of Dragon Age and Mass Effect but they've gone through those growing pains and are in a better place despite the issues.

That's the point of the article. That an engine isn't some catch all thing that can simply solve all of their development issues. It's something that's constantly and updated throughout the years as they work on games.
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Darmik posted...

But is there another engine out there that is designed for Bethesda games? Probably not.

I think that's why people are saying they should make a new one...

At the very least make this one competently better.
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Darmik posted...

codey posted...

I don't even care about the graphics, so that's already off the table. The fact is, Bethesda has made buggy af games on their engine for years. I like them regardless, but I don't know how far that's going to extend into the future.

The point of the article is that the engine isn't automatically at fault and it's a pretty pointless, specific criticism.

Would a Bethesda game suddenly not be buggy or have awful animations if they used a new engine? Nope. That's not a guarantee at all. Is the engine itself dated because they have used it since Oblivion? No because that engine has been drastically changed and updated over the years. Plenty of games use tech that has foundations that go back decades.

Modders for Bethesda games have been finding the same buggy lines of code since Oblivion, so I would say that them starting fresh instead of repeatedly upgrading might very well result in a less buggy engine.
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So, in other words, Bethesda games don't suck because they refuse to use a new "engine", they suck because they .are unable to make a game that isn't a bug riddled mess. And don't get me started on radiant quests. Go to hell Preston Garvy!
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Smashingpmkns posted...

Darmik posted...

But is there another engine out there that is designed for Bethesda games? Probably not.

I think that's why people are saying they should make a new one...

At the very least make this one competently better.

Making a new engine from scratch isn't exactly an easy endeavor and could potentially be even worse.

Its true that Bethesdas games have long been criticised for their game-breaking bugs and inability to reach the beautiful graphical standards of other high-end games, but there might be many reasons for that. One of those reasons might be their ambitionfew other games offer as much world interaction as Skyrim or Fallout 4.

Perhaps another reason is Bethesdas internal processes, or programming guidelines, or development timeline, or even some busted line of code buried somewhere in a file that nobody has touched since 2004. Its hard to say.

Blaming Bethesdas game engine is misguided, however, because the word engine itself is a misnomer. An engine isnt a single program or piece of technology - its a collection of software and tools that are changing constantly.

To say that Starfield and Fallout 76 are using the same engine because they might share an editor and other common traits is like saying Indian and Chinese meals are identical because they both feature chicken and rice. What we see on the outside, like a games graphical style, its animation system, and its physics, can be changed in all sorts of ways without switching to a new engine.

None of that is incorrect.

The article even points out that Unreal 4 is still built of the foundation from 1998. It means nothing.
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Darmik posted...

Making a new engine from scratch isn't exactly an easy endeavor and could potentially be even worse.

No one is saying it would be easy. if it were easy to make a good engine then they obviously have wouldn't have made such a shit one to begin with.
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Bethesda's engine is certainly flawed but again there's nothing else really else designed like it. It's likely a major reason we don't really see direct clones of their games. I think Todd's reasoning he explained in the article everyone is outraged over makes sense.

There's a lot to criticize Bethesda over but I don't really think this is one of them. We're all armchair developers at the end of the day. We don't know shit about working on a Bethesda game. I doubt it's easy.

If ESVI and Starfield still have the same issues as the recent Fallout games then yeah it deserves criticism. But these games are next generation titles that are years away. It's a bit of a kneejerk reaction to get upset over them using the same engine when we have no idea what they're going to be doing with them.
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Smashingpmkns posted...

Darmik posted...

Making a new engine from scratch isn't exactly an easy endeavor and could potentially be even worse.

No one is saying it would be easy. if it were easy to make a good engine then they obviously have wouldn't have made such a shit one to begin with.

Not to mention that they are a lot bigger of a company than they were in the days of Morrowind. This isn't a small indie with no resources.

The bottom line is: The mechanics of Fallout 76 and the reception to it is now officially a problem for them going forward. People always complained before, but we still bought it and they got a pass. That pass isn't happening now, and this article is not accurately reading the tone of the room.

They will have to figure out how to have a modern open world game that's still easy for modders to play with.
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Darmik posted...

Vyrulisse posted...

That's a pretty dumb comparison considering the second example involved embarassing two specific developers.

Dude when did you become a shill? Excusing Bethesda's incompetence and pretending people pissed off about Diablo have no leg to stand on, you are dangerously close to I Like Toast and Octillery levels of shilling.
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dave_is_slick posted...

Dude when did you become a shill? Excusing Bethesda's incompetence and pretending people pissed off about Diablo have no leg to stand on, you are dangerously close to I Like Toast and Octillery levels of shilling.

1. You still appear to misunderstand the point of article
2. I never said that they have no leg to stand on. All I said is that embarrassing developers on stage because you're upset over an announcement is being a manchild
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Darmik posted...

If ESVI and Starfield still have the same issues as the recent Fallout games then yeah it deserves criticism. But these games are next generation titles that are years away. It's a bit of a kneejerk reaction to get upset over them using the same engine when we have no idea what they're going to be doing with them.

No it fucking isn't since we've already seen what they did with "next gen" since Fallout 4 exists.
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dave_is_slick posted...

Darmik posted...

If ESVI and Starfield still have the same issues as the recent Fallout games then yeah it deserves criticism. But these games are next generation titles that are years away. It's a bit of a kneejerk reaction to get upset over them using the same engine when we have no idea what they're going to be doing with them.

No it fucking isn't since we've already seen what they did with "next gen" since Fallout 4 exists.

Err you know these two games are going to be a generation after Fallout 4 yeah?
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The article says the criticism is misguided, which implies that Bethesda deserves criticism, but in a different direction. But don't let that stop gamers from knee-jerk assuming shit. The life of a gamer is extremely hard, what with being the lone person who knows what they are talking about vs millions of shills and idiots.
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Darmik posted...

Bethesda's engine is certainly flawed but again there's nothing else really else designed like it. It's likely a major reason we don't really see direct clones of their games. I think Todd's reasoning he explained in the article everyone is outraged over makes sense.

There's a lot to criticize Bethesda over but I don't really think this is one of them. We're all armchair developers at the end of the day. We don't know shit about working on a Bethesda game. I doubt it's easy.

If ESVI and Starfield still have the same issues as the recent Fallout games then yeah it deserves criticism. But these games are next generation titles that are years away. It's a bit of a kneejerk reaction to get upset over them using the same engine when we have no idea what they're going to be doing with them.

Those games will sell regardless of how the engine is or even if the game is good. That's another issue. They have no reason to build a new engine because they'll make money regardless, and making a new engine is costly (ask Kojima). So with that train of thought we most likely won't see a new engine after those two games either because why bother?
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hockeybub89 posted...

The article says the criticism is misguided, which implies that Bethesda deserves criticism, but in a different direction. But don't let that stop gamers from knee-jerk assuming shit. The life of a gamer is extremely hard, what with being the lone person who knows what they are talking about vs millions of shills and idiots.

It's sad how much that point is flying over peoples heads.

Yes gamers. You know more than the developers who work on games. No idea why you don't work on games with your expert knowledge.
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Darmik posted...

hockeybub89 posted...

The article says the criticism is misguided, which implies that Bethesda deserves criticism, but in a different direction. But don't let that stop gamers from knee-jerk assuming shit. The life of a gamer is extremely hard, what with being the lone person who knows what they are talking about vs millions of shills and idiots.

It's sad how much that point is flying over peoples heads.

Yes gamers. You know more than the developers who work on games. No idea why you don't work on games with your expert knowledge.

Just because I'm not a chef doesnt mean I dont know when food tastes like shit. There's plenty of reasons to criticize Bethesda and their engine is one of them.
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Darmik posted...

Yes gamers. You know more than the developers who work on games. No idea why you don't work on games with your expert knowledge.

That's a ridiculous argument.
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Smashingpmkns posted...

Darmik posted...

hockeybub89 posted...

The article says the criticism is misguided, which implies that Bethesda deserves criticism, but in a different direction. But don't let that stop gamers from knee-jerk assuming shit. The life of a gamer is extremely hard, what with being the lone person who knows what they are talking about vs millions of shills and idiots.

It's sad how much that point is flying over peoples heads.

Yes gamers. You know more than the developers who work on games. No idea why you don't work on games with your expert knowledge.

Just because I'm not a chef doesnt mean I dont know when food tastes like shit. There's plenty of reasons to criticize Bethesda and their engine is one of them.

You're not the guy saying the food tastes like shit.

You're the guy going to the back of the kitchen and telling him how to cook the food and which ingredients to use despite being significantly less qualified.
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Darmik posted...

dave_is_slick posted...

Darmik posted...

If ESVI and Starfield still have the same issues as the recent Fallout games then yeah it deserves criticism. But these games are next generation titles that are years away. It's a bit of a kneejerk reaction to get upset over them using the same engine when we have no idea what they're going to be doing with them.

No it fucking isn't since we've already seen what they did with "next gen" since Fallout 4 exists.

Err you know these two games are going to be a generation after Fallout 4 yeah?

Your point? Skyrim was last gen. Fallout 4 is this gen. Why the fuck are you pretending that there isn't a pattern already?
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dave_is_slick posted...

Darmik posted...

dave_is_slick posted...

Darmik posted...

If ESVI and Starfield still have the same issues as the recent Fallout games then yeah it deserves criticism. But these games are next generation titles that are years away. It's a bit of a kneejerk reaction to get upset over them using the same engine when we have no idea what they're going to be doing with them.

No it fucking isn't since we've already seen what they did with "next gen" since Fallout 4 exists.

Err you know these two games are going to be a generation after Fallout 4 yeah?

Your point? Skyrim was last gen. Fallout 4 is this gen. Why the fuck are you pretending that there isn't a pattern already?

And Morrowind was a generation before that.

Do Morrowind and Fallout 76 have the same issues because they use the same engine foundation?

What is the pattern exactly?
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DarthAragorn posted...

not clicking because fuck kotaku

but the engine is trash

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eggcorn posted...

Darmik posted...

Yes gamers. You know more than the developers who work on games. No idea why you don't work on games with your expert knowledge.

That's a ridiculous argument.

It's especially ridiculous when talking about companies trying to cut down costs. Even Todd himself would say he'd like a new engine if money were no object.

This isn't about expertise or trying to tell the chef how to cook, it's telling him he's being cheap with the ingredients.
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I'm pretty sure everyone having to make new engines is the whole reason we're seeing games take 4-5 years to get made now.

Where as when everyone was using the Unreal engine we saw games coming out every 1-2 years.
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fuck bethesda
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Turtlemayor333 posted...

Even Todd himself would say he'd like a new engine if money were no object.

Where did he say that?

The quote everyone got outraged over was this;

For Fallout 76 we have changed a lot. The game uses a new renderer, a new lighting system and a new system for the landscape generation. For Starfield even more of it changes. And for The Elder Scrolls VI, out there on the horizon even more.

We like our editor. It allows us to create worlds really fast and the modders know it really well. There are some elementary ways we create our games and that will continue because that lets us be efficient and we think it works best.

The funny thing is as far as I can tell he's not even specifically talking about the Creation Engine there.
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Darmik posted...

dave_is_slick posted...

Darmik posted...

dave_is_slick posted...

Darmik posted...

If ESVI and Starfield still have the same issues as the recent Fallout games then yeah it deserves criticism. But these games are next generation titles that are years away. It's a bit of a kneejerk reaction to get upset over them using the same engine when we have no idea what they're going to be doing with them.

No it fucking isn't since we've already seen what they did with "next gen" since Fallout 4 exists.

Err you know these two games are going to be a generation after Fallout 4 yeah?

Your point? Skyrim was last gen. Fallout 4 is this gen. Why the fuck are you pretending that there isn't a pattern already?

And Morrowind was a generation before that.

Do Morrowind and Fallout 76 have the same issues because they use the same engine foundation?

What is the pattern exactly?

Inexcusably buggy games, I thought that was obvious enough for a five year old to figure out. But, apparently I'm dealing with a Bethesda slurper and based on my dealings with Trump slurpers, facts don't matter so I'm dipping before I give myself a concussion from all the facepalms.
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dave_is_slick posted...

Inexcusably buggy games, I thought that was obvious enough for a five year old to figure out. But, apparently I'm dealing with a Bethesda slurper and based on my dealings with Trump slurpers, facts don't matter so I'm dipping before I give myself a concussion from all the facepalms.

For the third time the point of the article flew over your head.

The point of the article is that the bugs can't just be blamed on an engine and nothing else.

Nobody is saying that Bethesda games aren't buggy. Nobody is 'slurping' them.

You're getting outraged over something you are unwilling to try and understand. Thinking Fallout 76 would magically be a bug free game if they used a different engine is some clownshoe logic.
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Yeah, Bethesda games are buggy because Bethesda has shit QA.

If it was an inherent problem with the engine, they wouldn't be as easily fixed through unofficial patches as they are I'm pretty sure.
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