Current Events > So Apu is offensive but Raj (BBT) is okay?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Veggeta X posted...

Awesome posted...

Big bang theory is ran on cbs.

Simpsons on fox.

Theres a reason why outrage was created and people fell into the trap.

Didn't your alt got banned recently for something some racist shit?

His main and his alt got hit with a warning and suspension respectively lol. It's like he was anticipating the very second he was able to come back on his main and get right back to post dumb shit. Sad!
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CyricZ posted...

Smashingpmkns posted...

We're essentially censoring them by the tyranny of the majority

The only one who had decided to "censor" is Fox itself by ending the character.

We cant ignore that it was what the people who are complaining about Apu wanted though. Again, tyranny of the majority.
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CyricZ posted...

And now, the bigwigs at Fox, in lieu of trying to improve Apu as a character, are just shutting Apu down completely.

Pretty sure FOX has absolutely 0 creative control over the show (baked into the contract). Its why the show roasts the network so much.
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I don't know why anyone gives a shit

Apu was like the worst character on the Simpsons. I'm glad they finally got rid of his ass
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im not 13 posted...

scar the 1 posted...

Why do you think people thought Apu was offensive, TC? Did you read/listen to the complaint that sparked that whole controversy?

That he's a negative stereotype? A business owner, family man that is very intelligent? Yeah I heard

So he's intelligent, owns a business, and is a family man....I don't watch The Simpsons but it seems racist on the left's part to be offended by that.

Alpha218 posted...

CyricZ posted...

And now, the bigwigs at Fox, in lieu of trying to improve Apu as a character, are just shutting Apu down completely.

Pretty sure FOX has absolutely 0 creative control over the show (naked into the contract). Its why the show roasts the network so much.

Fair. I admit, I don't have a lot of knowledge about the upper executive workings of the show. Let's just say "the showrunners" and leave it there.

Smashingpmkns posted...

We cant ignore that it was what the people who are complaining about Apu wanted though

Is it? What they wanted? Do you have proof that "people who are complaining" wanted Apu removed from the Simpsons?
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Veggeta X posted...

I've said this a million fucking time but it's okay I'll say it again as much as needed.

Apu is fine. Comedic takes on race is fine. The problem is when people view a character as a representation of that race and view members of that race like that character. That is what people are upset about. I don't understand why that point is getting lost in all of this. They're only calling for a change in Apu because that character is perpetuating stereotypes that make it harder for a certain group of people. That's not fully the fault of the creators, but more so society as a whole, and things can't fully be changed until characters like that are also changed.

Arguments like this never fail to irk me, because the subtext is "people are idiots who rely on fiction to shape their view of the world". Why can't people just be more intellectually responsible? Shouldn't we be promoting critical thinking, instead of treating cartoons/movies/TV shows/etc. like they're gospel to the masses?
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CyricZ posted...

Is it? What they wanted? Do you have proof that "people who are complaining" wanted Apu removed from the Simpsons?

Most people in these topics before the decision to remove him from the show said that they should remove him from the show or cancel the show altogether. There wasn't much in the way of actually changing the character. Topics here is all I really got because most people arent actually talking about this.
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superman 2000 posted...

Arguments like this never fail to irk me, because the subtext is "people are idiots who rely on fiction to shape their view of the world". Why can't people just be more intellectually responsible? Shouldn't we be promoting critical thinking, instead of treating cartoons/movies/TV shows/etc. like they're gospel to the masses?

I think it's very nave to dismiss the effect media has on people. The population and cartoons/movies/TV shows/whatever art really don't exist as two separate things or with a clear, one-directional relationship. They affect each other. Being more "intellectually responsible" is exactly what the documentary is about; to question, discuss and problematize culture instead of just accepting it at face value.
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Apu is just another character in the Simpsons, not particularly worse than others nor particularly better. Attacking the Simpsons because TV lacks representation of Indian characters is self-defeating. Either they would ignore it or they would remove the character giving you even less representation.

simpsons is a bigger cultural influence so race baiting piece of shit failure at life decided to use it over some tv show

people thought they need to do something because 'racism'. And here we are

superman 2000 posted...

Arguments like this never fail to irk me, because the subtext is "people are idiots who rely on fiction to shape their view of the world". Why can't people just be more intellectually responsible? Shouldn't we be promoting critical thinking, instead of treating cartoons/movies/TV shows/etc. like they're gospel to the masses?

Comedy doesn't exist in a vacuum. Media doesn't exist in a vacuum.
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KyerWiz posted...

Either they would ignore it or they would remove the character giving you even less representation.

Trying to be martyr is a bad thing.
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scar the 1 posted...

I think it's very nave to dismiss the effect media has on people. The population and cartoons/movies/TV shows/whatever art really don't exist as two separate things or with a clear, one-directional relationship. They affect each other. Being more "intellectually responsible" is exactly what the documentary is about; to question, discuss and problematize culture instead of just accepting it at face value.

My point is that we as a society should strive to be MINDFUL of that effect, so that we don't fall prey to it. As painfully mundane as reality can be, it doesn't change the fact that our favorite movies, video games, etc. are ultimately products of fiction. We should be smart enough to contextualize a show like The Simpsons by understanding it's just a bunch of cartoon characitures. If this were a society of critical thinkers (or hell, even just common sense-havers), we'd know better than to use entertainment to rationalize our perception of others. That's literally what separates children from adults.
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Smashingpmkns posted...

Most people in these topics before the decision to remove him from the show said that they should remove him from the show or cancel the show altogether

It's not because of Apu. CE in general is just sick of the Simpsons and wants to see the show ended on the issue of general quality.

I'm in that camp.
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Serious Cat posted...

superman 2000 posted...

Arguments like this never fail to irk me, because the subtext is "people are idiots who rely on fiction to shape their view of the world". Why can't people just be more intellectually responsible? Shouldn't we be promoting critical thinking, instead of treating cartoons/movies/TV shows/etc. like they're gospel to the masses?

Comedy doesn't exist in a vacuum. Media doesn't exist in a vacuum.

And maybe that's the problem. If society is too stupid to watch a character like Apu and say, "I understand that this character is a comedic stereotype of Indian people, and not representative of real-life Indian people everywhere. I can enjoy this character without having racist thoughts about Indians in general", then that's a problem with society.
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superman 2000 posted...

scar the 1 posted...

I think it's very nave to dismiss the effect media has on people. The population and cartoons/movies/TV shows/whatever art really don't exist as two separate things or with a clear, one-directional relationship. They affect each other. Being more "intellectually responsible" is exactly what the documentary is about; to question, discuss and problematize culture instead of just accepting it at face value.

My point is that we as a society should strive to be MINDFUL of that effect, so that we don't fall prey to it. As painfully mundane as reality can be, it doesn't change the fact that our favorite movies, video games, etc. are ultimately products of fiction. We should be smart enough to contextualize a show like The Simpsons by understanding it's just a bunch of cartoon characitures. If this were a society of critical thinkers (or hell, even just common sense-havers), we'd know better than to use entertainment to rationalize our perception of others. That's literally what separates children from adults.

And the point of the documentary was to have a conversation about that effect so that we can actually be MINDFUL about it. But the whole conversation got reduced by the creators to "PC complaints", whereas Kondabolu's whole point was to try and have an honest conversation. Not to villify or cry racism.
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Am I the only one who always knew how to watch television without projecting its bullshit onto reality? If a show/movie/whatever had a good message that could be applied to real life, then sure, I might feel inspired to act on it. But if a show was clearly just frivolous entertainment, then I DID leave that shit in a vacuum. Because that's how it should be. I don't watch Apu and think, "HA-HA, this is how Indians generally are!" because I'm not a fucking dumbass. And when I interact with Indian people in real life, I treat them as fucking individuals with their own backstories because again, I'm not a fucking dumbass.
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superman 2000 posted...

Am I the only one who always knew how to watch television without projecting its bullshit onto reality? If a show/movie/whatever had a good message that could be applied to real life, then sure, I might feel inspired to act on it. But if a show was clearly just frivolous entertainment, then I DID leave that shit in a vacuum. Because that's how it should be. I don't watch Apu and think, "HA-HA, this is how Indians generally are!" because I'm not a fucking dumbass. And when I interact with Indian people in real life, I treat them as fucking individuals with their own backstories because again, I'm not a fucking dumbass.

Are you being purposefully dense or do you really not understand that this is something that goes deeper than the conclusions you explicitly draw from a work of fiction?
Like, are you really going to pretend that how people, actions, conflicts etc are portrayed in various media reflects and shapes the way they're viewed and discussed in society? And are you going to pretend that every prejudice and preconceived notion is deliberately formed? Do you think that's what racism is? People suddenly, actively going "black people are worth less"?

Never mind that there would be tons of places in the 90s whose practically only exposure to Indian culture would be Apu.
Never mind that media helps shape our language, our frames of references, our norms, our collective sense of humor and sense of what's OK to joke about, etc. We affect that. And that affects us.
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scar the 1 posted...

superman 2000 posted...

scar the 1 posted...

I think it's very nave to dismiss the effect media has on people. The population and cartoons/movies/TV shows/whatever art really don't exist as two separate things or with a clear, one-directional relationship. They affect each other. Being more "intellectually responsible" is exactly what the documentary is about; to question, discuss and problematize culture instead of just accepting it at face value.

My point is that we as a society should strive to be MINDFUL of that effect, so that we don't fall prey to it. As painfully mundane as reality can be, it doesn't change the fact that our favorite movies, video games, etc. are ultimately products of fiction. We should be smart enough to contextualize a show like The Simpsons by understanding it's just a bunch of cartoon characitures. If this were a society of critical thinkers (or hell, even just common sense-havers), we'd know better than to use entertainment to rationalize our perception of others. That's literally what separates children from adults.

And the point of the documentary was to have a conversation about that effect so that we can actually be MINDFUL about it. But the whole conversation got reduced by the creators to "PC complaints", whereas Kondabolu's whole point was to try and have an honest conversation. Not to villify or cry racism.

The Simpsons never were the problem, they were an ally. Having Apu on the Simpsons helped Indian representation. Instead of pointing at Apu, an average Simpsons character, and saying that's a problem, they should have wondered why there isn't more representation. Where are the Indian characters on other, more serious, shows?

Even if the one who started the controversy only wanted to start a conversation and encourage more broad Indian representation on TV, "The problem with Apu" was clickbaity and the Simpsons were suddenly questioned on all sides on their portrayal of Apu. There were only ever going to be 2 possible answers to that: ignore it or remove the character. Their attempt to brush it off was met with more accusations so guess what they went with.

You can definitely tell who watched the Simpsons and who listened to an idiot in a documentary and thinks he wasn't lying to you

scar the 1 posted...

Are you being purposefully dense or do you really not understand that this is something that goes deeper than the conclusions you explicitly draw from a work of fiction?
Like, are you really going to pretend that how people, actions, conflicts etc are portrayed in various media reflects and shapes the way they're viewed and discussed in society? And are you going to pretend that every prejudice and preconceived notion is deliberately formed? Do you think that's what racism is? People suddenly, actively going "black people are worth less"?

Are you really missing my entire point that people should be nuanced enough in their thinking to know the difference between stereotypical portrayals and real-life people with their own backstories, upbringings, etc.? That proper education and critical thinking skills are the solution?

Never mind that there would be tons of places in the 90s whose practically only exposure to Indian culture would be Apu.

And IF WE WERE A SMART SOCIETY, that STILL wouldn't fuck up our perception of Indian people. Because we'd be smart enough to go "Hey, I recognize that this Indian character is a stereotype, but I also understand that Indians only make up like 6% of America and that this cartoon's representation of Indian folk shouldn't be taken at face value, if for no other reason than the fact that it's just a fucking cartoon. People should be judged individually, and whether or not I'm personally exposed to Indians is irrelevant."

Never mind that media helps shape our language, our frames of references, our norms, our collective sense of humor and sense of what's OK to joke about, etc. We affect that. And that affects us.

And if America was a society of CRITICAL THINKERS, media wouldn't have us by the fucking balls. That's my point. We need to be a smarter society, so that we can finally start properly contextualizing shit instead of worrying that stereotypes in a goddamn cartoon show will fuck up people's perceptions of the real thing.
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superman 2000 posted...

Are you really missing my entire point that people should be nuanced enough in their thinking to know the difference between stereotypical portrayals and real life people with their own backstories, upbringings, etc.?

Are you really missing my point that that's exactly what the documentary is about?

superman 2000 posted...

And IF WE WERE A SMART SOCIETY, that STILL wouldn't f*** up our perception of Indian people. Because we'd be smart enough to go "Hey, I recognize this Indian stereotype, but I also understand that Indians only make up like 6% of America and that this cartoon's representation of Indian folk shouldn't be taken at face value, if for no other reason than the fact that it's just a f***ing cartoon. Whether or not I'm personally exposed to Indians is irrelevant."

OK but that's not how society works, nor is it how the media works. Even if you write it in caps. AND SOCIETY IS DEFINITELY NOT GOING TO GET BETTER IF EVERY ATTEMPT AT NUANCED DISCUSSION GETS SHOT DOWN FOR BEING "PC".

superman 2000 posted...

And if America was a society of CRITICAL THINKERS, media wouldn't have us by the f***ing balls. That's my point. We need to be a smarter society, so that we can finally start properly contextualizing s*** instead of worrying that stereotypes in a goddamn cartoon show will f*** up people's perceptions of the real thing.

Literally no place is every, or will ever be, a society of CRITICAL THINKERS. It's a nice hypothetical but it's literally completely useless.
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scar the 1 posted...

Literally no place is every, or will ever be, a society of CRITICAL THINKERS. It's a nice hypothetical but it's literally completely useless.

And that is my point. THAT'S what needs to change. Again, promote critical thinking. Because until society stops being full of idiots, all we're doing is saying "hurr durr, be a good babysitter, Hollywood, or society won't know any better." That's putting a bandage on a shotgun wound. The problem--REAL problem--is that people just aren't very smart, and that will sooner be the death of society far before any stereotypical character in some cartoon show. Sorry, but in the end, it all comes back to critical thinking.
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What's funny is that everything about BBT is actually offensive. I can't see how Apu is, though due to the nature of the show I'm sure there are parts that are.
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superman 2000 posted...

scar the 1 posted...

Literally no place is every, or will ever be, a society of CRITICAL THINKERS. It's a nice hypothetical but it's literally completely useless.

And that is my point. THAT'S what needs to change. Again, promote critical thinking. Because until society stops being full of idiots, all we're doing is saying "hurr durr, be a good babysitter, Hollywood, or society won't know any better." That's putting a bandage on a shotgun wound. The problem--REAL problem--is that people just aren't very smart, and that will sooner be the death of society far before any stereotypical character in some cartoon show. Sorry, but in the end, it all comes back to critical thinking.

Yeah and my point is that the documentary is an invitation to critical thinking but is being shot down and undermined as PC whining.
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It sounds to me that the reason Apu is considered offensive is simply because he's too popular a character and their aren't any other popular indian characters. Which is a shitty reason to say he's offensive.
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scar the 1 posted...

superman 2000 posted...

scar the 1 posted...

Literally no place is every, or will ever be, a society of CRITICAL THINKERS. It's a nice hypothetical but it's literally completely useless.

And that is my point. THAT'S what needs to change. Again, promote critical thinking. Because until society stops being full of idiots, all we're doing is saying "hurr durr, be a good babysitter, Hollywood, or society won't know any better." That's putting a bandage on a shotgun wound. The problem--REAL problem--is that people just aren't very smart, and that will sooner be the death of society far before any stereotypical character in some cartoon show. Sorry, but in the end, it all comes back to critical thinking.

Yeah and my point is that the documentary is an invitation to critical thinking but is being shot down and undermined as PC whining.

THE PROBLEM WITH APU

Every journalists to the Simpsons creators: Is Apu a racist stereotype?

Could have named it: Apu is a fun character but we also need more Indian representation in serious roles.

Clickbait title was clickbait, people ganged up on the Simpsons, Groening brushed it off, people got mad that THE SIMPSONS, the show which at the height of its popularity was represented by a bratty kid saying eat my shorts, felt fine doing what they'd done for over the past 25 years with every single one of their characters.

Taking offense at criticism because someone describes something as a problem is exactly what I'm talking about. It's not exactly critical thinking, it's dismissive and unwilling to even entertain the notion that some people might think there's a problem. Like, "Sure, do criticism, but only as long as I agree with it"
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Just to see if anyone that's trolling will actually stop
Apu is one of the handful of decent human beings in the town, one of the most educated, good people

but no. no. It's because he's not voiced by a 'real' Indian accented person like failed comedy idiot that's the reason
but we all skip over that because gotta get fake ourtage

scar the 1 posted...

Yeah and my point is that the documentary is an invitation to critical thinking but is being shot down and undermined as PC whining.

I think it's just that people are conflating two different things. There is the documentary and then there is the outrage mob. They are not saying the same things.
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TomNook20 posted...

scar the 1 posted...

Yeah and my point is that the documentary is an invitation to critical thinking but is being shot down and undermined as PC whining.

I think it's just that people are conflating two different things. There is the documentary and then there is the outrage mob. They are not saying the same things.

Where is the outrage mob?
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the stupid part is they removed the character. There's no reason to shut down the character really, characters have been whitewashed for years, males have played females, and more recently the opposite has happened and other races have played white people. You don't see superman cancelled forever because of that. It's pretty stupid.
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P4wn4g3 posted...

the stupid part is they removed the character. There's no reason to shut down the character really, characters have been whitewashed for years, males have played females, and more recently the opposite has happened and other races have played white people. You don't see superman cancelled forever because of that. It's pretty stupid.

It's just people being stupid
Nancy voices a 10 year old boy
perhaps some 10 year old boyscan bitch like the idiot did

It was a false report that they removed him. The character had apparently already seen a diminished role over the past few years. Hes been your typical background character long before this controversy started.
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scar the 1 posted...

Taking offense at criticism because someone describes something as a problem is exactly what I'm talking about. It's not exactly critical thinking, it's dismissive and unwilling to even entertain the notion that some people might think there's a problem. Like, "Sure, do criticism, but only as long as I agree with it"

Criticizing a character in a show because not enough OTHER shows have a character of that ethnicity is terrible criticism and deserves to be dismissed. Apu is a good character that is neither a horrible person nor a hero, an average guy. That's representation, that's good. No, he cannot properly represent the entire Indian community by himself, that's ridiculous. Get Indian characters in other shows.

There is no problem with Apu, there is a problem with people expecting a single cartoon character to properly represent their entire community.

No one expected that. He was just used as an example because he was the most well known character playing that stereotype. They didnt blame it on Apu. They didnt blame it on the Simpsons. It was just used to illustrate their point. Did you guys even listen to anything they said lol.
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VipaGTS posted...

It was a false report that they removed him. The character had apparently already seen a diminished role over the past few years. Hes been your typical background character long before this controversy started.

Did they correct the story?
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P4wn4g3 posted...

VipaGTS posted...

It was a false report that they removed him. The character had apparently already seen a diminished role over the past few years. Hes been your typical background character long before this controversy started.

Did they correct the story?

Not that I know of. IIRC it came from a different source.
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People are fed up with outrage culture.
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P4wn4g3 posted...

People are fed up with outrage culture.

Outrage culture is often times manufactured by people who don't want things to be questioned
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scar the 1 posted...

P4wn4g3 posted...

People are fed up with outrage culture.

Outrage culture is often times manufactured by people who don't want things to be questioned

Why cite sources questioning norms in the first place then
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P4wn4g3 posted...

People are fed up with outrage culture.

What does that have to do with a false report being corrected? The original source never came from the simpsons either.
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VipaGTS posted...

P4wn4g3 posted...

People are fed up with outrage culture.

What does that have to do with a false report being corrected? The original source never came from the simpsons either.

This shouldn't have gotten the publicity it did in the first place.
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We're not going to have comedy for much longer, we're heading for no fun allowed at all
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P4wn4g3 posted...

VipaGTS posted...

P4wn4g3 posted...

People are fed up with outrage culture.

What does that have to do with a false report being corrected? The original source never came from the simpsons either.

This shouldn't have gotten the publicity it did in the first place.

Why not? Again, this wasnt about Apu is racist get rid of him! Your failure to understand the dialog they were trying to start isnt their fault. Not everything like this is a result of outrage. The irony is the higher outrage is coming from you as youre acting outraged about something they didnt even say.
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l Dudeboy l posted...

Raj is played by an Indian actor so he can do what he likes.

You are totally ignorant to the whole situation. You don't understand that the Indian actor has no choice but to take these demeaning roles in order to survive in Hollywood...and more or less put food on the table. Hollywood has a history of casting only white people for characters with positive attributes and people of color for the negative stereotypical roles. This is especially true for East Asian men. This definitely needs to stop because it distorts the perception of young minds, such as kids, to the social structure and status of race. And leads future generations to white worship.
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Apu isn't racist. I'm still convinced that was a marketing ploy to get people to talk about the Simpson's again.
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Also no one ever said stereotypical Indian characters cant exist. Theyre really just saying hey..we can do more than put on fake accents and act like goofy Indians...give us a chance to do that. And yea its getting better as the years go on but there was a time where Indian actors in Hollywood were just asked to do the funny accent thing...why is bringing attention to that and saying ok that was fun...can we try and show you what else we can do? Such a bad thing to say to some of you?
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BBT is offensive because it isn't funny at all.