Current Events > Brave MusIim comes out as gay and tells of his struggles with HIV.

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UnfairRepresent 10/28/18 1:57:26 PM #1:	Shamal Waraich, 34, was born in Manchester and grew up in a religious British-Pakistani household. He was diagnosed with HIV in 2013, and now educates people about what it's like to be gay, Muslim and living with HIV. "To this day, I have never come across someone like me and it's incredibly lonely," says Shamal Waraich. "Now I have got to the point in my life where I'm proud to say who I am: I'm British-Pakistani, Muslim, gay and living with HIV. I just want to say to someone, 'You understand, right? How difficult it is as a Muslim and being HIV positive?'" Waraich was diagnosed with HIV in October 2013. He had a hard time reconciling being Muslim and gay and this affected how he received his diagnosis. "I felt so much shame and guilt around it," he says. "HIV is seen as a gay man's disease. In the Asian community, there is this perception that this is a sinful thing. I internalised that homophobia, and thought, 'I deserved that - this is probably my destiny, I'm going to die young and go to hell.'" He remembers the day he got his diagnosis at a sexual health clinic in East London. "I had gone in to get tested for something else. That's when it came back that I had HIV and my world just fell apart," The health advisor at the clinic spoke to him for 40 minutes, but he couldn't absorb any of it. "I don't even remember what he said, I was scared to face the reality of it. I just wanted the ground to swallow me up." Waraich kept his diagnosis to himself for two years. "I isolated myself. I didn't tell anyone - only my doctor and a counsellor knew. Having this secret took me to some dark places, and I almost contemplated ending my life." Now Waraich works in sexual health education, as an outreach worker for the Terrence Higgins Trust. He feels it is important to speak out. Recently, Waraich decided to tell his parents about his HIV status. He had been worried about telling them for years. "My mum was really supportive. She said, in Urdu, 'I love you as my son, whatever you bring to my doorstep, I will support you regardless.' "It was such a relief to tell her. I was expecting her to ask me questions, like if I was going to die, but she was just very loving." His older brother and his sister-in-law, Saier and Rabia, have also been supportive. "Rabia has always been able to sense when things are a bit iffy with my mental health. When I told them about the HIV diagnosis, she said, 'Why didn't you just tell us? We could have been there for you.'" But at the time, he says no-one could have helped him because he was not ready. It has taken him five years to accept the support he was offered and be confident to talk about it. Waraich says he was "freaking out" about coming out as gay to his parents a few years ago. "I actually told my dad in the hardware store," he says. "We were looking at drill bits and I was plucking up the courage. I thought, 'I have to do it here, it's a really manly place.' "I wanted to do it in that moment because we were in public. I was thinking, 'OK, he probably won't shout at me or get angry at me here - or maybe he will and pick up a hammer and smash me on the head!' All of these surreal thoughts were going through my mind. But he was so great, my Dad was so supportive." His mother, he says, was more shocked by his tattoos than by his coming out. "I was wearing a vest in the summer - rookie mistake. Mum started shouting, 'You know that is haram [forbidden] in our religion, you're going to be burnt in Jahannam [hell] for that!' Not everyone in his family has been understanding - recently he came out as gay to a cousin. Her reaction was, "Oh that's wrong." --- ^ Hey now that's completely unfair. https://imgtc.com/i/14JHfrt.jpg <cite>UnfairRepresent posted [p:911325730] in Brave MusI... [t:77141695]...</cite> <quote>Shamal Waraich, 34, was born in Manchester and grew up in a religious British-Pakistani household. He was diagnosed with HIV in 2013, and now educates people about what it's like to be gay, Muslim and living with HIV. "To this day, I have never come across someone like me and it's incredibly lonely," says Shamal Waraich. "Now I have got to the point in my life where I'm proud to say who I am: I'm British-Pakistani, Muslim, gay and living with HIV. I just want to say to someone, 'You understand, right? How difficult it is as a Muslim and being HIV positive?'" Waraich was diagnosed with HIV in October 2013. He had a hard time reconciling being Muslim and gay and this affected how he received his diagnosis. "I felt so much shame and guilt around it," he says. "HIV is seen as a gay man's disease. In the Asian community, there is this perception that this is a sinful thing. I internalised that homophobia, and thought, 'I deserved that - this is probably my destiny, I'm going to die young and go to hell.'" He remembers the day he got his diagnosis at a sexual health clinic in East London. "I had gone in to get tested for something else. That's when it came back that I had HIV and my world just fell apart," The health advisor at the clinic spoke to him for 40 minutes, but he couldn't absorb any of it. "I don't even remember what he said, I was scared to face the reality of it. I just wanted the ground to swallow me up." Waraich kept his diagnosis to himself for two years. "I isolated myself. I didn't tell anyone - only my doctor and a counsellor knew. Having this secret took me to some dark places, and I almost contemplated ending my life." Now Waraich works in sexual health education, as an outreach worker for the Terrence Higgins Trust. He feels it is important to speak out. Recently, Waraich decided to tell his parents about his HIV status. He had been worried about telling them for years. "My mum was really supportive. She said, in Urdu, 'I love you as my son, whatever you bring to my doorstep, I will support you regardless.' "It was such a relief to tell her. I was expecting her to ask me questions, like if I was going to die, but she was just very loving." His older brother and his sister-in-law, Saier and Rabia, have also been supportive. "Rabia has always been able to sense when things are a bit iffy with my mental health. When I told them about the HIV diagnosis, she said, 'Why didn't you just tell us? We could have been there for you.'" But at the time, he says no-one could have helped him because he was not ready. It has taken him five years to accept the support he was offered and be confident to talk about it. Waraich says he was "freaking out" about coming out as gay to his parents a few years ago. "I actually told my dad in the hardware store," he says. "We were looking at drill bits and I was plucking up the courage. I thought, 'I have to do it here, it's a really manly place.' "I wanted to do it in that moment because we were in public. I was thinking, 'OK, he probably won't shout at me or get angry at me here - or maybe he will and pick up a hammer and smash me on the head!' All of these surreal thoughts were going through my mind. But he was so great, my Dad was so supportive." His mother, he says, was more shocked by his tattoos than by his coming out. "I was wearing a vest in the summer - rookie mistake. Mum started shouting, 'You know that is haram [forbidden] in our religion, you're going to be burnt in Jahannam [hell] for that!' Not everyone in his family has been understanding - recently he came out as gay to a cousin. Her reaction was, "Oh that's wrong."</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
UnfairRepresent 10/28/18 1:57:33 PM #2:	"I wasn't really upset by her reaction," says Waraich. "I just said, 'I'm going to teach you because you don't know any better - I didn't choose to be gay. I was born this way.' Coming out again and again is painful and emotional. I've come out so much in my life, and now I have to come out about my HIV status. "I've learned to not be defensive, but to go into educational mode. But it puts the onus on me. I find myself having to comfort someone else who is finding it hard to deal with - 'Oh my God, you're HIV positive, I'm really sorry,' and then I have to comfort them." Now that Waraich has told everyone in his personal life, he's on a mission to educate others in the South Asian community. "Sexual health clinics do amazing work, but for Asians it's a struggle to get through the door," he says. He knows this from experience. Despite living as an openly gay man after moving to London in 2010, and being well-informed about HIV, he found it hard to overcome the stigma. "Most gay men are quite clocked on, going to get tested regularly. In my experience, people of colour are like, 'What if my mum sees that? What if it comes up on my Internet history?' People are still very nervous about talking about those things. "I could have protected myself. I knew about HIV, but I was so ashamed of going to the clinic, I buried my head in the sand." It's still very difficult for Asians to talk to each other about sex, says Waraich - partly because they lack the right language. "In Urdu for instance, we don't have a word for sex or sexuality or LGBT even though these cultures exist in Pakistan. If there is a word, it's derogatory and I don't want to be known as that." And with conversations not being had about sex, there are even fewer conversations about sexual health. Waraich is aware that South Asian patients might be hesitant to speak to him. "They might feel judged, or think that I might know their auntie or something. Sometimes they don't want to share things but I tell them, 'This is your health, we want YOU to know where you are so you're not affecting anyone else.' "A lot of people don't know that you can be on treatment and that it's not a death sentence. People have normal lives. It's just two pills a day. I set an alarm on my phone and it has just become part of my routine. I am 'undetectable' which means that I cannot pass it to a partner - but not everyone is able to grasp that concept." Despite everything, he still occasionally struggles to reconcile his identity with his religious upbringing. "I'm going to follow my religion on my own terms. God is going to judge me and that's going to be between us." Full Article: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-45723416 A man who has every reason in life to be angry, is instead happy and otimistic. Trying to help others and change attitudes. That's nice. --- ^ Hey now that's completely unfair. https://imgtc.com/i/14JHfrt.jpg <cite>UnfairRepresent posted [p:911325742] in Brave MusI... [t:77141695]...</cite> <quote> "I wasn't really upset by her reaction," says Waraich. "I just said, 'I'm going to teach you because you don't know any better - I didn't choose to be gay. I was born this way.' Coming out again and again is painful and emotional. I've come out so much in my life, and now I have to come out about my HIV status. "I've learned to not be defensive, but to go into educational mode. But it puts the onus on me. I find myself having to comfort someone else who is finding it hard to deal with - 'Oh my God, you're HIV positive, I'm really sorry,' and then I have to comfort them." Now that Waraich has told everyone in his personal life, he's on a mission to educate others in the South Asian community. "Sexual health clinics do amazing work, but for Asians it's a struggle to get through the door," he says. He knows this from experience. Despite living as an openly gay man after moving to London in 2010, and being well-informed about HIV, he found it hard to overcome the stigma. "Most gay men are quite clocked on, going to get tested regularly. In my experience, people of colour are like, 'What if my mum sees that? What if it comes up on my Internet history?' People are still very nervous about talking about those things. "I could have protected myself. I knew about HIV, but I was so ashamed of going to the clinic, I buried my head in the sand." It's still very difficult for Asians to talk to each other about sex, says Waraich - partly because they lack the right language. "In Urdu for instance, we don't have a word for sex or sexuality or LGBT even though these cultures exist in Pakistan. If there is a word, it's derogatory and I don't want to be known as that." And with conversations not being had about sex, there are even fewer conversations about sexual health. Waraich is aware that South Asian patients might be hesitant to speak to him. "They might feel judged, or think that I might know their auntie or something. Sometimes they don't want to share things but I tell them, 'This is your health, we want YOU to know where you are so you're not affecting anyone else.' "A lot of people don't know that you can be on treatment and that it's not a death sentence. People have normal lives. It's just two pills a day. I set an alarm on my phone and it has just become part of my routine. I am 'undetectable' which means that I cannot pass it to a partner - but not everyone is able to grasp that concept." Despite everything, he still occasionally struggles to reconcile his identity with his religious upbringing. "I'm going to follow my religion on my own terms. God is going to judge me and that's going to be between us." Full Article: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-45723416 A man who has every reason in life to be angry, is instead happy and otimistic. Trying to help others and change attitudes. That's nice.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
King_Hellebuyck 10/28/18 2:06:25 PM #3:	God is going to judge me and that's going to be between us." This is my favorite type of religious belief. What a good guy. --- All Hail King Connor! Official Connor Hellebuyck fanboy <cite>King_Hellebuyck posted [p:911326206] in Brave MusI... [t:77141695]...</cite> <quote>God is going to judge me and that's going to be between us." This is my favorite type of religious belief. What a good guy.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
tamashiini 10/28/18 2:07:21 PM #4:	I mean, it's a shame about the HIV, but. That is nice. Good for him. --- PSN: helicene Careful, Icarus. <cite>tamashiini posted [p:911326253] in Brave MusI... [t:77141695]...</cite> <quote>I mean, it's a shame about the HIV, but. That is nice. Good for him.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
UnfairRepresent 10/28/18 2:11:43 PM #5:	BTW just to prevent any confusion: This man is British and in the UK "Asian" means like Pakistani or Indian 95% of the time. And they refer to Japanese, Korean or Chinese people as Japanese, Korean or Chinese people. In the US Asian means Japanese or Korean or Chinese 95% of the time. And they refer to Pakistani or Indian people as Pakistani or Indian people. This can confuse people between the channels. Dunno how that happened but it just kinda did. An American will blink twice if you call an Indian Asian and a Brit will cock his head if you refered to a blatantly Japanese person as Asian. --- ^ Hey now that's completely unfair. https://imgtc.com/i/14JHfrt.jpg <cite>UnfairRepresent posted [p:911326470] in Brave MusI... [t:77141695]...</cite> <quote>BTW just to prevent any confusion: This man is British and in the UK "Asian" means like Pakistani or Indian 95% of the time. And they refer to Japanese, Korean or Chinese people as Japanese, Korean or Chinese people. In the US Asian means Japanese or Korean or Chinese 95% of the time. And they refer to Pakistani or Indian people as Pakistani or Indian people. This can confuse people between the channels. Dunno how that happened but it just kinda did. An American will blink twice if you call an Indian Asian and a Brit will cock his head if you refered to a blatantly Japanese person as Asian.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
aki_sora 10/28/18 2:20:16 PM #6:	What about malay people? It call British-malay or Asian? --- this is GFAQs and stating an opinion is a declaration of WAR! Own PS3 & PS VITA <cite>aki_sora posted [p:911326917] in Brave MusI... [t:77141695]...</cite> <quote>What about malay people? It call British-malay or Asian?</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
UnfairRepresent 10/28/18 2:22:21 PM #7:	aki_sora posted... What about malay people? It call British-malay or Asian? Brits will call them Asian Americans will call them "Who the fuck is in-deo-knee-zee-ion-sia??" --- ^ Hey now that's completely unfair. https://imgtc.com/i/14JHfrt.jpg <cite>UnfairRepresent posted [p:911327033] in Brave MusI... [t:77141695]...</cite> <quote><cite>aki_sora posted...</cite> <quote>What about malay people? It call British-malay or Asian?</quote> Brits will call them Asian Americans will call them "Who the fuck is in-deo-knee-zee-ion-sia??"</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
aki_sora 10/28/18 2:22:58 PM #8:	Lol --- this is GFAQs and stating an opinion is a declaration of WAR! Own PS3 & PS VITA <cite>aki_sora posted [p:911327063] in Brave MusI... [t:77141695]...</cite> <quote>Lol</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
VipaGTS 10/28/18 2:24:17 PM #9:	Respect to him. The unfortunate reality is we may never completely get rid of certain religions, and while it will take several, several years to change those religions, its actions of people like this who will help spearhead that change and they need our support for that. --- "I devour urine just like my Portland Trailblazers, with piss poor defense." <cite>VipaGTS posted [p:911327125] in Brave MusI... [t:77141695]...</cite> <quote>Respect to him. The unfortunate reality is we may never completely get rid of certain religions, and while it will take several, several years to change those religions, its actions of people like this who will help spearhead that change and they need our support for that.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Funkydog 10/28/18 2:28:13 PM #10:	UnfairRepresent posted... and a Brit will cock his head if you refered to a blatantly Japanese person as Asian. No we won't. That aside, is good to see someone trying to spread love and understanding. --- https://imgur.com/BGbZK <cite>Funkydog posted [p:911327327] in Brave MusI... [t:77141695]...</cite> <quote><cite>UnfairRepresent posted...</cite> <quote>and a Brit will cock his head if you refered to a blatantly Japanese person as Asian.</quote> No we won't. That aside, is good to see someone trying to spread love and understanding.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
EliteLevel 10/28/18 2:30:00 PM #11:	Glad to hear something positive for a change. However, hes not a muslim. It is impossible to be gay and Muslim at the same time. --- Judge not, lest ye be judged and get butthurt. <cite>EliteLevel posted [p:911327440] in Brave MusI... [t:77141695]...</cite> <quote>Glad to hear something positive for a change. However, hes not a muslim. It is impossible to be gay and Muslim at the same time.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
King_Hellebuyck 10/28/18 2:32:14 PM #12:	EliteLevel posted... Glad to hear something positive for a change. However, hes not a muslim. It is impossible to be gay and Muslim at the same time. Dont be this kind of person. --- All Hail King Connor! Official Connor Hellebuyck fanboy <cite>King_Hellebuyck posted [p:911327597] in Brave MusI... [t:77141695]...</cite> <quote><cite>EliteLevel posted...</cite> <quote>Glad to hear something positive for a change. However, hes not a muslim. It is impossible to be gay and Muslim at the same time.</quote> Dont be this kind of person.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
VipaGTS 10/28/18 2:33:20 PM #13:	EliteLevel posted... However, hes not a muslim. It is impossible to be gay and Muslim at the same time. I knew this thought would come up. "he's not a REAL Muslim!"..Good, he's part of a new take of that religion. He is potential change in developed nations. Support what he's trying to do, don't just say "Yea well you're not a REAL muslim"...let his idea be whats real. Like i said it'll take a LONG time to see any real change like that but constantly standing in their way by saying "you aren't a real one" won't help things change either. That'll just keep things the same. You'e helping the "real" ones keep people like this down by saying that. --- "I devour urine just like my Portland Trailblazers, with piss poor defense." <cite>VipaGTS posted [p:911327662] in Brave MusI... [t:77141695]...</cite> <quote><cite>EliteLevel posted...</cite> <quote>However, hes not a muslim. It is impossible to be gay and Muslim at the same time.</quote> I knew this thought would come up. "he's not a REAL Muslim!"..Good, he's part of a new take of that religion. He is potential change in developed nations. Support what he's trying to do, don't just say "Yea well you're not a REAL muslim"...let his idea be whats real. Like i said it'll take a LONG time to see any real change like that but constantly standing in their way by saying "you aren't a real one" won't help things change either. That'll just keep things the same. You'e helping the "real" ones keep people like this down by saying that.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
UnfairRepresent 10/28/18 2:33:52 PM #14:	Funkydog posted... UnfairRepresent posted... and a Brit will cock his head if you refered to a blatantly Japanese person as Asian. No we won't. Yes they will. They will wonder why you didn't say Japanese. If you said "I'm going to get Asian food." and came back with Chinese they would be taken aback and stunned for a few moments that you didn't get an Indian curry. --- ^ Hey now that's completely unfair. https://imgtc.com/i/14JHfrt.jpg <cite>UnfairRepresent posted [p:911327686] in Brave MusI... [t:77141695]...</cite> <quote><cite>Funkydog posted...</cite> <quote><cite>UnfairRepresent posted...</cite> <quote>and a Brit will cock his head if you refered to a blatantly Japanese person as Asian.</quote> No we won't.</quote> Yes they will. They will wonder why you didn't say Japanese. If you said "I'm going to get Asian food." and came back with Chinese they would be taken aback and stunned for a few moments that you didn't get an Indian curry.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
CM_Ponch 10/28/18 2:36:49 PM #15:	I'm proud of you TC --- SW-8316-3213-4720 <cite>CM_Ponch posted [p:911327859] in Brave MusI... [t:77141695]...</cite> <quote>I'm proud of you TC</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
masticatingman 10/28/18 2:38:46 PM #16:	King_Hellebuyck posted... EliteLevel posted... Glad to hear something positive for a change. However, hes not a muslim. It is impossible to be gay and Muslim at the same time. Dont be this kind of person. Cant really see him being openly accepted by a congregation. --- Colossally colossal. <cite>masticatingman posted [p:911327970] in Brave MusI... [t:77141695]...</cite> <quote><cite>King_Hellebuyck posted...</cite> <quote><cite>EliteLevel posted...</cite> <quote>Glad to hear something positive for a change. However, hes not a muslim. It is impossible to be gay and Muslim at the same time.</quote> Dont be this kind of person.</quote> Cant really see him being openly accepted by a congregation.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
UnfairRepresent 10/28/18 2:40:53 PM #17:	CM_Ponch posted... I'm proud of you TC Erm, thanks? masticatingman posted... King_Hellebuyck posted... EliteLevel posted... Glad to hear something positive for a change. However, hes not a muslim. It is impossible to be gay and Muslim at the same time. Dont be this kind of person. Cant really see him being openly accepted by a congregation. In the UK? He might find one. He'd have to look tho In the rest of Europe? Yeah he'd be lucky to be alive --- ^ Hey now that's completely unfair. https://imgtc.com/i/14JHfrt.jpg <cite>UnfairRepresent posted [p:911328096] in Brave MusI... [t:77141695]...</cite> <quote><cite>CM_Ponch posted...</cite> <quote>I'm proud of you TC</quote> Erm, thanks? <cite>masticatingman posted...</cite> <quote><cite>King_Hellebuyck posted...</cite> <quote><cite>EliteLevel posted...</cite> <quote>Glad to hear something positive for a change. However, hes not a muslim. It is impossible to be gay and Muslim at the same time.</quote> Dont be this kind of person.</quote> Cant really see him being openly accepted by a congregation.</quote> In the UK? He might find one. He'd have to look tho In the rest of Europe? Yeah he'd be lucky to be alive</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
King_Hellebuyck 10/28/18 2:43:39 PM #18:	masticatingman posted... King_Hellebuyck posted... EliteLevel posted... Glad to hear something positive for a change. However, hes not a muslim. It is impossible to be gay and Muslim at the same time. Dont be this kind of person. Cant really see him being openly accepted by a congregation. Let him worry about that, you dont have to. --- All Hail King Connor! Official Connor Hellebuyck fanboy <cite>King_Hellebuyck posted [p:911328237] in Brave MusI... [t:77141695]...</cite> <quote><cite>masticatingman posted...</cite> <quote><cite>King_Hellebuyck posted...</cite> <quote><cite>EliteLevel posted...</cite> <quote>Glad to hear something positive for a change. However, hes not a muslim. It is impossible to be gay and Muslim at the same time.</quote> Dont be this kind of person.</quote> Cant really see him being openly accepted by a congregation.</quote> Let him worry about that, you dont have to.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
EliteLevel 10/28/18 2:45:53 PM #19:	VipaGTS posted... EliteLevel posted... However, hes not a muslim. It is impossible to be gay and Muslim at the same time. I knew this thought would come up. "he's not a REAL Muslim!"..Good, he's part of a new take of that religion. He is potential change in developed nations. Support what he's trying to do, don't just say "Yea well you're not a REAL muslim"...let his idea be whats real. Like i said it'll take a LONG time to see any real change like that but constantly standing in their way by saying "you aren't a real one" won't help things change either. That'll just keep things the same. You'e helping the "real" ones keep people like this down by saying that. What a ridiculous thing to say. Homosexuality is totally forbidden in Islam. Sure you can start a new religion. But you cant say you follow Islam and do something incompatible with oth it. Change may come but it wont be Islam anymore. --- Judge not, lest ye be judged and get butthurt. <cite>EliteLevel posted [p:911328340] in Brave MusI... [t:77141695]...</cite> <quote><cite>VipaGTS posted...</cite> <quote><cite>EliteLevel posted...</cite> <quote>However, hes not a muslim. It is impossible to be gay and Muslim at the same time.</quote> I knew this thought would come up. "he's not a REAL Muslim!"..Good, he's part of a new take of that religion. He is potential change in developed nations. Support what he's trying to do, don't just say "Yea well you're not a REAL muslim"...let his idea be whats real. Like i said it'll take a LONG time to see any real change like that but constantly standing in their way by saying "you aren't a real one" won't help things change either. That'll just keep things the same. You'e helping the "real" ones keep people like this down by saying that.</quote> What a ridiculous thing to say. Homosexuality is totally forbidden in Islam. Sure you can start a new religion. But you cant say you follow Islam and do something incompatible with oth it. Change may come but it wont be Islam anymore.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
VipaGTS 10/28/18 2:48:41 PM #20:	EliteLevel posted... Change may come but it wont be Islam anymore. and that's a bad thing? if things can change and the "new" version of it replaces the old version majorly is that not a good thing? Christianity changed over the years too...Like i said, this line of thinking is only helping the super strict followers of the religion keep it in the stone ages. If that's what you want more power to you, i guess. They really appreciate your contribution to their cause. --- "I devour urine just like my Portland Trailblazers, with piss poor defense." <cite>VipaGTS posted [p:911328502] in Brave MusI... [t:77141695]...</cite> <quote><cite>EliteLevel posted...</cite> <quote>Change may come but it wont be Islam anymore.</quote> and that's a bad thing? if things can change and the "new" version of it replaces the old version majorly is that not a good thing? Christianity changed over the years too...Like i said, this line of thinking is only helping the super strict followers of the religion keep it in the stone ages. If that's what you want more power to you, i guess. They really appreciate your contribution to their cause.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
Middle hope 10/28/18 2:52:00 PM #21:	He should be glad he lives in a decent country and not one of the middle eastern regions of peace --- \|)\|_ \|_\_/\|)\|_\|)\| - RE expert44 \|\\|__ \|__/\\| \|__\|\_\| This is RE expert44 (b^.^b)Have a nice day... <cite>Middle hope posted [p:911328665] in Brave MusI... [t:77141695]...</cite> <quote>He should be glad he lives in a decent country and not one of the middle eastern regions of peace</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
EliteLevel 10/28/18 2:52:18 PM #22:	VipaGTS posted... EliteLevel posted... Change may come but it wont be Islam anymore. and that's a bad thing? if things can change and the "new" version of it replaces the old version majorly is that not a good thing? Christianity changed over the years too...Like i said, this line of thinking is only helping the super strict followers of the religion keep it in the stone ages. If that's what you want more power to you, i guess. They really appreciate your contribution to their cause. Im not saying thats a bad thing. And also shut the fuck up. Never again imply Im fighting for the cause of Islam or Muslims. --- Judge not, lest ye be judged and get butthurt. <cite>EliteLevel posted [p:911328683] in Brave MusI... [t:77141695]...</cite> <quote><cite>VipaGTS posted...</cite> <quote><cite>EliteLevel posted...</cite> <quote>Change may come but it wont be Islam anymore.</quote> and that's a bad thing? if things can change and the "new" version of it replaces the old version majorly is that not a good thing? Christianity changed over the years too...Like i said, this line of thinking is only helping the super strict followers of the religion keep it in the stone ages. If that's what you want more power to you, i guess. They really appreciate your contribution to their cause.</quote> Im not saying thats a bad thing. And also shut the fuck up. Never again imply Im fighting for the cause of Islam or Muslims.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
VipaGTS 10/28/18 2:56:01 PM #23:	But you are. By saying "you can't be a REAL muslim, it'll be a different thing" you're helping keep that barbaric variation of it alive...or you can support this guy's message so other people who are born into Islam might see varying ideas and choose to gravitate more towards him than the stricter side of things. You won't eradicate the religion but you can help boost up more positive thoughts within it. This is one of them. Let him be a Muslim with these thoughts. Hope that his thoughts reach future generations and we can see an overall change where people in Islam or born into Islam help usher in a change that sees more people gravitating towards this positive message and fewer people holding on to the old ways. That works so much better than saying "well, Islam will still exist this will just be different". It may not be your intention, and I apologize if i made it sound that way, but saying things like that doesn't help people like this change the message. it helps the backwards lunatics keep the old, strict way alive. --- "I devour urine just like my Portland Trailblazers, with piss poor defense." <cite>VipaGTS posted [p:911328874] in Brave MusI... [t:77141695]...</cite> <quote>But you are. By saying "you can't be a REAL muslim, it'll be a different thing" you're helping keep that barbaric variation of it alive...or you can support this guy's message so other people who are born into Islam might see varying ideas and choose to gravitate more towards him than the stricter side of things. You won't eradicate the religion but you can help boost up more positive thoughts within it. This is one of them. Let him be a Muslim with these thoughts. Hope that his thoughts reach future generations and we can see an overall change where people in Islam or born into Islam help usher in a change that sees more people gravitating towards this positive message and fewer people holding on to the old ways. That works so much better than saying "well, Islam will still exist this will just be different". It may not be your intention, and I apologize if i made it sound that way, but saying things like that doesn't help people like this change the message. it helps the backwards lunatics keep the old, strict way alive.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
EliteLevel 10/28/18 3:05:52 PM #24:	VipaGTS posted... But you are. By saying "you can't be a REAL muslim, it'll be a different thing" you're helping keep that barbaric variation of it alive...or you can support this guy's message so other people who are born into Islam might see varying ideas and choose to gravitate more towards him than the stricter side of things. You won't eradicate the religion but you can help boost up more positive thoughts within it. This is one of them. Let him be a Muslim with these thoughts. Hope that his thoughts reach future generations and we can see an overall change where people in Islam or born into Islam help usher in a change that sees more people gravitating towards this positive message and fewer people holding on to the old ways. That works so much better than saying "well, Islam will still exist this will just be different". It may not be your intention, and I apologize if i made it sound that way, but saying things like that doesn't help people like this change the message. it helps the backwards lunatics keep the old, strict way alive. The source of Islam is the Quran and the Hadiths. They state homosexuality is one of the biggest sins in Islam. In fact gays are accursed. Im all for eradicating every religion (though thatll probably never happen) but even modernising them is ok. However, if you write something out of religion or change it then its no longer that religion any more. Its like if you have a cheese pizza. If you add chicken to it its no longer a cheese pizza. Thats what Im saying. Hes not a real muslim because in order to be one you have to believe and follow Allahs message (the Quran) and believe and follow what the prophet Mohammed sid/did (the Hadiths). --- Judge not, lest ye be judged and get butthurt. <cite>EliteLevel posted [p:911329352] in Brave MusI... [t:77141695]...</cite> <quote><cite>VipaGTS posted...</cite> <quote>But you are. By saying "you can't be a REAL muslim, it'll be a different thing" you're helping keep that barbaric variation of it alive...or you can support this guy's message so other people who are born into Islam might see varying ideas and choose to gravitate more towards him than the stricter side of things. You won't eradicate the religion but you can help boost up more positive thoughts within it. This is one of them. Let him be a Muslim with these thoughts. Hope that his thoughts reach future generations and we can see an overall change where people in Islam or born into Islam help usher in a change that sees more people gravitating towards this positive message and fewer people holding on to the old ways. That works so much better than saying "well, Islam will still exist this will just be different". It may not be your intention, and I apologize if i made it sound that way, but saying things like that doesn't help people like this change the message. it helps the backwards lunatics keep the old, strict way alive.</quote> The source of Islam is the Quran and the Hadiths. They state homosexuality is one of the biggest sins in Islam. In fact gays are accursed. Im all for eradicating every religion (though thatll probably never happen) but even modernising them is ok. However, if you write something out of religion or change it then its no longer that religion any more. Its like if you have a cheese pizza. If you add chicken to it its no longer a cheese pizza. Thats what Im saying. Hes not a real muslim because in order to be one you have to believe and follow Allahs message (the Quran) and believe and follow what the prophet Mohammed sid/did (the Hadiths).</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
UnfairRepresent 10/28/18 3:17:28 PM #25:	EliteLevel posted... The source of Islam is the Quran and the Hadiths. They state homosexuality is one of the biggest sins in Islam. In fact gays are accursed. Im all for eradicating every religion (though thatll probably never happen) but even modernising them is ok. However, if you write something out of religion or change it then its no longer that religion any more. By this logic there's only like 5 million relgious people left on Earth. The amount of things religious texts forbid or call sinful and beliefs that used to common place that no longer exist is staggering. For example female eyebrow plucking and using toothpaste is a sin in Islamic text. $5 says you would not be screaming "You're not a true Muslim!" at some Islamic chick with shiny white teeth. --- ^ Hey now that's completely unfair. https://imgtc.com/i/14JHfrt.jpg <cite>UnfairRepresent posted [p:911330008] in Brave MusI... [t:77141695]...</cite> <quote><cite>EliteLevel posted...</cite> <quote> The source of Islam is the Quran and the Hadiths. They state homosexuality is one of the biggest sins in Islam. In fact gays are accursed. Im all for eradicating every religion (though thatll probably never happen) but even modernising them is ok. However, if you write something out of religion or change it then its no longer that religion any more. </quote> By this logic there's only like 5 million relgious people left on Earth. The amount of things religious texts forbid or call sinful and beliefs that used to common place that no longer exist is staggering. For example female eyebrow plucking and using toothpaste is a sin in Islamic text. $5 says you would not be screaming "You're not a true Muslim!" at some Islamic chick with shiny white teeth.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
EliteLevel 10/28/18 3:31:46 PM #26:	UnfairRepresent posted... EliteLevel posted... The source of Islam is the Quran and the Hadiths. They state homosexuality is one of the biggest sins in Islam. In fact gays are accursed. Im all for eradicating every religion (though thatll probably never happen) but even modernising them is ok. However, if you write something out of religion or change it then its no longer that religion any more. By this logic there's only like 5 million relgious people left on Earth. The amount of things religious texts forbid or call sinful and beliefs that used to common place that no longer exist is staggering. For example female eyebrow plucking and using toothpaste is a sin in Islamic text. $5 says you would not be screaming "You're not a true Muslim!" at some Islamic chick with shiny white teeth. Committing sins doesnt mean youre no longer a follower. It depends on which sins you commit. Some make you a bad follower but you can pray to Allah for forgiveness. But other sins can mean you are no longer a muslim. --- Judge not, lest ye be judged and get butthurt. <cite>EliteLevel posted [p:911330783] in Brave MusI... [t:77141695]...</cite> <quote><cite>UnfairRepresent posted...</cite> <quote><cite>EliteLevel posted...</cite> <quote> The source of Islam is the Quran and the Hadiths. They state homosexuality is one of the biggest sins in Islam. In fact gays are accursed. Im all for eradicating every religion (though thatll probably never happen) but even modernising them is ok. However, if you write something out of religion or change it then its no longer that religion any more. </quote> By this logic there's only like 5 million relgious people left on Earth. The amount of things religious texts forbid or call sinful and beliefs that used to common place that no longer exist is staggering. For example female eyebrow plucking and using toothpaste is a sin in Islamic text. $5 says you would not be screaming "You're not a true Muslim!" at some Islamic chick with shiny white teeth.</quote> Committing sins doesnt mean youre no longer a follower. It depends on which sins you commit. Some make you a bad follower but you can pray to Allah for forgiveness. But other sins can mean you are no longer a muslim.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
UnfairRepresent 10/28/18 3:52:55 PM #27:	My how convenient --- ^ Hey now that's completely unfair. https://imgtc.com/i/14JHfrt.jpg <cite>UnfairRepresent posted [p:911331970] in Brave MusI... [t:77141695]...</cite> <quote>My how convenient</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
EliteLevel 10/28/18 3:54:47 PM #28:	UnfairRepresent posted... My how convenient You obviously know nothing of religion. --- Judge not, lest ye be judged and get butthurt. <cite>EliteLevel posted [p:911332089] in Brave MusI... [t:77141695]...</cite> <quote><cite>UnfairRepresent posted...</cite> <quote>My how convenient</quote> You obviously know nothing of religion.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
gamer167 10/28/18 3:54:56 PM #29:	UnfairRepresent posted... EliteLevel posted... The source of Islam is the Quran and the Hadiths. They state homosexuality is one of the biggest sins in Islam. In fact gays are accursed. Im all for eradicating every religion (though thatll probably never happen) but even modernising them is ok. However, if you write something out of religion or change it then its no longer that religion any more. By this logic there's only like 5 million relgious people left on Earth. The amount of things religious texts forbid or call sinful and beliefs that used to common place that no longer exist is staggering. For example female eyebrow plucking and using toothpaste is a sin in Islamic text. $5 says you would not be screaming "You're not a true Muslim!" at some Islamic chick with shiny white teeth. I think the majority of Muslims would call this guy not a true Muslim. ISIS wasnt throwing dudes off roofs for having a tube of Crest 3D. <cite>gamer167 posted [p:911332097] in Brave MusI... [t:77141695]...</cite> <quote><cite>UnfairRepresent posted...</cite> <quote><cite>EliteLevel posted...</cite> <quote> The source of Islam is the Quran and the Hadiths. They state homosexuality is one of the biggest sins in Islam. In fact gays are accursed. Im all for eradicating every religion (though thatll probably never happen) but even modernising them is ok. However, if you write something out of religion or change it then its no longer that religion any more. </quote> By this logic there's only like 5 million relgious people left on Earth. The amount of things religious texts forbid or call sinful and beliefs that used to common place that no longer exist is staggering. For example female eyebrow plucking and using toothpaste is a sin in Islamic text. $5 says you would not be screaming "You're not a true Muslim!" at some Islamic chick with shiny white teeth.</quote> I think the majority of Muslims would call this guy not a true Muslim. ISIS wasnt throwing dudes off roofs for having a tube of Crest 3D.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
UnfairRepresent 10/28/18 4:09:11 PM #30:	gamer167 posted... I think the majority of Muslims would call this guy not a true Muslim. And the majority if not all Muslims from a thousand years ago would not call any Muslims today "True Muslims" gamer167 posted... ISIS wasnt throwing dudes off roofs for having a tube of Crest 3D. Sigless user logic. ISIS get to decide who is Muslim now. It's bullshit, it always was. No True Scotsmans all the way down --- ^ Hey now that's completely unfair. https://imgtc.com/i/14JHfrt.jpg <cite>UnfairRepresent posted [p:911332827] in Brave MusI... [t:77141695]...</cite> <quote><cite>gamer167 posted...</cite> <quote> I think the majority of Muslims would call this guy not a true Muslim.</quote> And the majority if not all Muslims from a thousand years ago would not call any Muslims today "True Muslims" <cite>gamer167 posted...</cite> <quote> ISIS wasnt throwing dudes off roofs for having a tube of Crest 3D. </quote> Sigless user logic. ISIS get to decide who is Muslim now. It's bullshit, it always was. No True Scotsmans all the way down</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
gamer167 10/28/18 4:32:37 PM #31:	UnfairRepresent posted... gamer167 posted... I think the majority of Muslims would call this guy not a true Muslim. And the majority if not all Muslims from a thousand years ago would not call any Muslims today "True Muslims" gamer167 posted... ISIS wasnt throwing dudes off roofs for having a tube of Crest 3D. Sigless user logic. ISIS get to decide who is Muslim now. It's bullshit, it always was. No True Scotsmans all the way down The difference being it doesnt matter if you talked to Muslims from the year 1000 all the way to 2018 NONE of them would consider this guy a true Muslim. <cite>gamer167 posted [p:911334212] in Brave MusI... [t:77141695]...</cite> <quote><cite>UnfairRepresent posted...</cite> <quote><cite>gamer167 posted...</cite> <quote> I think the majority of Muslims would call this guy not a true Muslim.</quote> And the majority if not all Muslims from a thousand years ago would not call any Muslims today "True Muslims" <cite>gamer167 posted...</cite> <quote> ISIS wasnt throwing dudes off roofs for having a tube of Crest 3D. </quote> Sigless user logic. ISIS get to decide who is Muslim now. It's bullshit, it always was. No True Scotsmans all the way down</quote> The difference being it doesnt matter if you talked to Muslims from the year 1000 all the way to 2018 NONE of them would consider this guy a true Muslim.</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
UnfairRepresent 10/28/18 4:43:46 PM #32:	gamer167 posted... The difference being it doesnt matter if you talked to Muslims from the year 1000 all the way to 2018 NONE of them would consider this guy a true Muslim. And that matters because? --- ^ Hey now that's completely unfair. https://imgtc.com/i/14JHfrt.jpg <cite>UnfairRepresent posted [p:911334847] in Brave MusI... [t:77141695]...</cite> <quote><cite>gamer167 posted...</cite> <quote> The difference being it doesnt matter if you talked to Muslims from the year 1000 all the way to 2018 NONE of them would consider this guy a true Muslim.</quote> And that matters because?</quote> ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Current Events > Brave MusIim comes out as gay and tells of his struggles with HIV. (+) Yeah! (+)

Current Events > Brave MusIim comes out as gay and tells of his struggles with HIV.