Current Events > How come in Marvel, people who want unequal rights/mutant registry are bad guys?

(+) Yeah! (+)

UnfairRepresent posted...

It takes less time for Picard in a bad mood to wipe out the whole race than it takes you to make a cup of coffee and a sandwich. Yes he needs safeguards in place to prevent that.

But here is the thing. There isn't a safeguard you could put on it. Let's say there is a registration. Let's say Xavier even registers that he is an alpha-class telepath capable of rendering everyone in the hemisphere brain dead if he so wished. So the Mutant Control Taskforce shows up and asks Xavier to come with them for the good of humanity. Xavier then decides that as a good person it doesn't make sense for a person who is by all accounts a good guy to spend his whole life in detention or worse lobotomized or executed. So he mindtricks all the members into thinking that he removed his powers and goes about his day. That's like the best case scenario from a good guy who doesn't want to cause an issue. At the end of the day there are still no safeguards.

If Xavier were a bad guy, he probably didn't voluntarily register his powers. He also would likely not entertain any taskforce that showed up at his door telling them to come with him. He kills all those people and then proceeds to probably take some now more drastic offensive measure against the government since he knows he is now a target.

That's with an alpha-level threat. There is no safeguard in the world against someone like Franklin Richards. If he wanted to he could recreate the world in a way that every anti-mutant politician was never born.
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UnfairRepresent posted...

RchHomieQuanChi posted...

It doesn't matter. The analogy still fit

It doesn't tho.

Said it in my opening line:
I get that it is a paper thin allegory for racial or sexual discrimination. But that doesn't fly when you think about it. Black people can't melt you with their mind, Lesbians don't control the weather.

I was watching one of the movies the other day, don't ask me which one because they are all the same but Picard was drugged into being like 4 seconds away from literally murdering every single human on Earth

RchHomieQuanChi posted...

Also keep in mind that there's maybe 6 or 7 mutants that actually have power on the scale you're talking about. Not every mutant is an Omega-level mutant capable of farting and destroying half the world's population.

I don't see how that's relevant, especially considering it's established that more mutants are coming every year and a lot of the have the same powers.

You only have to commit genocide on 7 billion people once.

But let's go back to the original point of your post.

You're asking why the anti-mutant people in the X-Men comics are the bad guys, when they advocate for preemptively killing off/sterilizing an entire percentage of the world's population before they've done anything wrong, while not even fully understanding their powers and while holding them accountable for less than 1% of the mutant population who are only classified as Omega-level mutants and most of whom haven't done anything that would render them an immediate threat.
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KamenRiderBlade posted...

UnfairRepresent posted...

It takes less time for Picard in a bad mood to wipe out the whole race than it takes you to make a cup of coffee and a sandwich. Yes he needs safeguards in place to prevent that.

Yet, they manage not to commit genocide every time he travels to new planets & civilizations.

Well they do in the Grinverse

Annoyingly the Picard ones have mostly been taken off Youtube but Sisko's genocide survived!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTBUgTby93Y" data-time="

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebATLOZCSjI" data-time="

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29-iFOEOgIM" data-time="
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Oh yeah, and the most notable, dangerous faction of mutants came about because humanity treated them like garbage and picked a war with them. Oops!
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The way the SHRA was implemented was really dumb. It was made law at midnight and exactly 5 seconds later, there were SWAT teams breaking down doors, arresting mutants and the like before there was ever a chance for them to even hear about the law or have a chance to consider registration. Then you had Reed Richards and his alternate dimension prison camp that these people were being held in without trial. All in all, it was handled extremely poorly and it had to be otherwise the SHRA would be reasonable, and the anti-reg side would look like anarchists and be the bad guys.
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You seem to have missed my previous post so I'll quote it:

JE19426 posted...

First of all not everyone that's a mutant knows they are mutants. Abilities can be situational and people can believe they are some of kind of superhuman.

Secondly people discover their abilities at different points in time, so if someone claims they just discovered their abilities it's going to be hard to prove otherwise.

Thirdly pretty much all mutant registries, have ridiculous restrictions in place on the mutants being registered. From they have to be enlisted to they need 24h supervision.

Fourthly there's actually real world (well fictional real world) data that all the registries are just planned steps to wiping out mutants.

Fifthly why limit it only to mutants and not all superhumans if you are worried about the dangers?

UnfairRepresent posted...

Well they do in the Grinverse

That's not Prime-Cannon material, & you know it.
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Also, if the anti-mutant side really wanted to achieve their goals of protecting humanity under the extreme measures that they take, that would require them imprisoning, forcefully sterilizing or outright killing off non-mutants who only carry the X-gene. Legitimately innocent people who don't even have the potential to do anything world-ending. And this is with limited understanding of how the X-gene works and how somebody even gets it, so just imagine the slippery slope here.
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KamenRiderBlade posted...

UnfairRepresent posted...

Well they do in the Grinverse

That's not Prime-Cannon material, & you know it.

I know but they are still funny

Gheb posted...

But here is the thing. There isn't a safeguard you could put on it. Let's say there is a registration. Let's say Xavier even registers that he is an alpha-class telepath capable of rendering everyone in the hemisphere brain dead if he so wished. So the Mutant Control Taskforce shows up and asks Xavier to come with them for the good of humanity. Xavier then decides that as a good person it doesn't make sense for a person who is by all accounts a good guy to spend his whole life in detention or worse lobotomized or executed. So he mindtricks all the members into thinking that he removed his powers and goes about his day. That's like the best case scenario from a good guy who doesn't want to cause an issue. At the end of the day there are still no safeguards.

Except in all canons mindfuck resistant helmets exist (otherwise no villain would ever be a threat)

Even ignoring said Helmets, have snipers or back up teams the other teams don't know about monitoring the situation. If Captain Xavier starts mindraping people then blow his bald head off.

And this is ignoring potential canons of mutant supressing drugs or knocking Xavier out and THEN talking to him once he is secured

That's with an alpha-level threat. There is no safeguard in the world against someone like Franklin Richards. If he wanted to he could recreate the world in a way that every anti-mutant politician was never born.

I can think of a few, and the fact he is so dangerous kinda proves how they need to exist.

Remember that movie Bruce Almighty? God went out of his way to ensure Jim Carrey couldn't interfere with Free Will because he would fuck up the world if he could.

Even God put safe-guards in place of someone that powerful.

RchHomieQuanChi posted...

You're asking why the anti-mutant people in the X-Men comics are the bad guys, when they advocate for preemptively killing off/sterilizing an entire percentage of the world's population before they've done anything wrong

Yeah sure, ones who want cap mutants in the head from birth are douchebags.

But we're talking about registration and safeguards here. That's reasonable, not evil.

Again if Lesbians could control the weather, you'd be cool with NO safe-guards in place whatsoever?

RchHomieQuanChi posted...

Oh yeah, and the most notable, dangerous faction of mutants came about because humanity treated them like garbage and picked a war with them. Oops!

I don't see how that's relevant.

JE19426 posted...

First of all not everyone that's a mutant knows they are mutants. Abilities can be situational and people can believe they are some of kind of superhuman. Secondly people discover their abilities at different points in time, so if someone claims they just discovered their abilities it's going to be hard to prove otherwise.Thirdly pretty much all mutant registries, have ridiculous restrictions in place on the mutants being registered. From they have to be enlisted to they need 24h supervision.

So?

why limit it only to mutants and not all superhumans if you are worried about the dangers?

Cuz this topic is about X-men and how villains are portrayed in it.

Spiderman is not like that. In fact IIRC he supports 'meta-human' registration in the comics because he knows how dangerous they are.
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UnfairRepresent posted...

But we're talking about registration and safeguards here. That's reasonable, not evil.

Every registration or safeguard in the Marvel universe thus far has ended in utter disaster, either because they were only effective on mutants/superhumans willing to actually abide by the law and thus weren't a problem either way, or because the only way to make them effective was by also killing, imprisoning or sterilizing innocent people.

The most notable registration act in all of Marvel was the Superhero Registration Act and we all saw how wonderful that worked out for everyone.
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RchHomieQuanChi posted...

Every registration or safeguard in the Marvel universe thus far has ended in utter disaster,

That's not relevant

RchHomieQuanChi posted...

The most notable registration act in all of Marvel was the Superhero Registration Act and we all saw how wonderful that worked out for everyone.

I didn't :D

However I did see the movies and comics were either all or nearly all mutants died due to a lack of oversight.
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UnfairRepresent posted...

Spiderman is not like that. In fact IIRC he supports 'meta-human' registration in the comics because he knows how dangerous they are.

Are you intentionally omitting information? He supported it at first after pressure from Tony Stark, but realized how stupid it was once his friends were being imprisoned and his loved ones were being assassinated.
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RchHomieQuanChi posted...

Are you intentionally omitting information?

No I just stopped reading comic books when I was a child so my memories old.

I just remember JJ being glad Spiderman was going to unmask because he hates him and then Spiderman being like "Lulz I'm actually like Peter Parker and stuff" and then JJ was like "WTF!?"

But even so, going "He changed his mind later" doesn't change the rationale for supporting safeguards and why it was right to do so.

If someone is in a burning building, the right thing to do is call the Fire Department.

IF the firemen end up beating and raping the victims because they are corrupt (or because a bad writer has to contrive a shitty story) that doesn't change the fact that calling them at the time was the right thing to do and not evil.
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UnfairRepresent posted...

But even so, going "He changed his mind later" doesn't change the rationale for supporting safeguards and why it was right to do so.

Except the rationale for the safeguard was extremely flimsy and stupid.

The entire Superhero Registration Act was kickstarted because some supervillain went apeshit and killed off an entire block of people.

Forcing supers to register with the government doesn't prevent that since, using NRA logic, "laws won't stop criminals from committing crimes". The law instead caused superheroes to fight among each other while the supervillains took advantage of the chaos to commit more crimes. Spider-Man literally outright says that they've spent so much time fighting each other that they failed to stop the bad guys.

There's also the whole "Hey if you have superpowers, we're gonna force you to register and if you register, you're now government property and legally bound to go wherever the hell we tell you to go."
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UnfairRepresent posted...

So?

How do you enforce mutant registration without also imprisoning people, who just discovered their powers are were going to register.

Cuz this topic is about X-men and how villains are portrayed in it.

You mean all the villains that want to force mutant registration, as one step of their mutant genocide? I think the while mutant genocide explains why they are depicted as evil villains.

RchHomieQuanChi posted...

Except the rationale for the safeguard was extremely flimsy and stupid.

The entire Superhero Registration Act was kickstarted because some supervillain went apeshit and killed off an entire block of people.

That's stepping on a snail compared to Jean-Luc Xavier nearly killing everyone. Then killing all his friends

Forcing supers to register with the government doesn't prevent that since, using NRA logic, "laws won't stop criminals from committing crimes". The law instead caused superheroes to fight among each other while the supervillains took advantage of the chaos to commit more crimes. Spider-Man literally outright says that they've spent so much time fighting each other that they failed to stop the bad guys.

Because they fucked up and did it badly to contrive a story.

But the people supporting the safeguards are still not bad guys, or at least shouldn't be considered bad guys.
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UnfairRepresent posted...

That's stepping on a snail compared to Jean-Luc Xavier nearly killing everyone. Then killing all his friends

Yeah that happened because Xavier's mind started to go and he started having seizures. How does mutant registration solve that? The only reason Wolverine was able to stop it is because he's Wolverine.
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JE19426 posted...

How do you enforce mutant registration without also imprisoning people, who just discovered their powers are were going to register.

wut

JE19426 posted...

You mean all the villains that want to force mutant registration, as one step of their mutant genocide? I think the while mutant genocide explains why they are depicted as evil villains.

Mutant genocide happens anyway when they are free.

Ever played Mass Effect? If not you should, it's a good game.

But there's this race called Asari who are blue, all female, can live for well over 1,000 years and can breed with anything by literally mind-fucking them (fanservice much?)

Anyway among these people is a rare genetic condition that means a tiny minority of are vampires who anyone they sleep with dies instantly. On top of that, every time the vampire orgasms it becomes more powerful and gains subtle mind-control abilities that makes them go slowly insane and everyone around them into worshipping cultists and themselves into Goddesses.

So the longer the murder rampage goes the bigger the threat becomes

Now in the game the way society dealt with this was they put all these vampires into a monastery and force them to live there lives there forever as virgins.

In the game you meet 1 that has escaped and has spent 4 centuries brutally massacring thousands of people without hesitation and 1 that is chasing her down.

In the end you have to choose who to side with, the one hunting the vampire down or the vampire going "Hey I only killed everyone because you won't let me be free!"

spoilers ahead
If you pick the vampire she ends up trying to kill you, kills hundreds more people, then gets turned into a horrible abomination andyou have to kill her anyway.

If the pick the hunter chasing her, you end up going to one of the monasteries and find out all the other vampires are totally cool with being locked up because they are mature enough to go "Well yeah, every time one of us isn't locked up they go insane and kill everyone for centuries so we get it. This is our home" and they ain't even mad

Turns out freedom was not worth the cost

That same scenario seems relevant here.

Someone like Picard or Jean or Nightcrawler should be maturely open to the threat they produce.

And lunatics need to be netrualized no matter what.

While intelligent but unreasonable people like Neto and Wolverine and whoever need safeguards put in the place.

Or at least, the suggestion of Safeguards is not evil
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UnfairRepresent posted...

Stopping the genocide of the human race isn't "A little temporary safety" is absolute.

Discriminating against people with these powers is only accelerating the genocide of the human race.

And I wasn't quoting Ben Franklin, but Blackstar. And I stand by their quote. Even if permanent safety, giving up freedom for that is not OK.

UnfairRepresent posted...

Slipperly slope falacy

It's not because we've seen this literally happen in that universe. Also the logic you're using applies to anyone with superpowers. Being a mutant or a Strontian or an Asgardian or a mutate doesn't change the fact that you can blow up the Earth.

UnfairRepresent posted...

I'm not sure I agree.

Again I got repeat, Picard nearly killed everyone. Neato nearly killed Nixon.

And if we count Logan as canon (which I hope we don't because it was a meh movie) in response to the Mutants being dangerous as "individuals" they poisoned the high-fructose corn syrup foods of the entire world to cull all mutants.

And in comics Old Man Logan was even worse.

A far worse fate than government oversight.

On top of that, I don't see why "Well the government might be corrupt!" makes people who want to stop the potential mutant armageddon the bad guys.

How would you feel if your son could potentially kill 7 billion people and nearly did?

So...Professor X didn't do anything and Magneto almost killed one guy. Not seeing the need no. The gov't has nuked entire countries and enslaved people. They're factually worse. The Logan example is the gov't being worse than mutants.

The gov't is factually corrupt. No 'might be'.

And I wouldn't care if he nearly did. Until he does it, what ifs don't matter.

And if I had a son who could I'd never register him no matter the circumstances.
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Knowledge_King posted...

How would you feel if your son could potentially kill 7 billion people and nearly did?

I wouldn't care if he nearly did.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yw7dlXrkrEU" data-time="
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UnfairRepresent posted...

wut

What part of my question was unclear?

Mutant genocide happens anyway when they are free.

So obviously they shouldn't try to stop it. Got it.

Because it's a somewhat dated allegory for being different. The X-Men were invented around the civil rights era (even though it was initially a team of five white people, but they were led by one white guy who was wheel chair bound, so there's your diversity), and it has been used to represent race, color, creed, sexuality, and physical/mental well being. In the past fifty years there have been broad social changes where society in spite of itself has progressed, and you can no longer use something like a guy with deadly laser eyes as a blanket misfit for anyone who doesn't fit in as easily as they are a real liability to the well being and safety of the general public.

If anything you could maybe make them more of a symbol of the right wing, like why aren't my razor-sharp adamantium claws protected under the second amendment? This would likely alienate a lot of their idealistic fan-base who have grown up believing this team celebrates diversity.

There's maybe only a few examples of characters on the X-Men who would probably be openly republican with the character of Warren Worthington III, the Angel/Archangel, probably being one of them, but if anything they make him seem more like a wealthy donor who supports them, because they appeal to some of his personal causes similar to how Warren Buffett supports the Democratic party.
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didnt the x men try to to destroy /stop the registry because registered mutants were being killed or kidnaped ? (someone at the goverment was using it as a target list )
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MortimerBrewstr posted...

If anything you could maybe make them more of a symbol of the right wing, like why aren't my razor-sharp adamantium claws protected under the second amendment? This would likely alienate a lot of their idealistic fan-base who have grown up believing this team celebrates diversity.

It would also invite many people who are Pro-2A and give them something to look at.

An allegory as to why they don't want things on a registry.

Look what the Governments in X-men did to the mutants once they were on a registry.

History has proven that a deadly thing like a registry can be abused easily.

So fighting against the creation of one is paramount.
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Trayvon posted...

I don't get why the general public seems to have more of a problem with mutants than non-mutants superheroes like Spiderman and Captain America

don't they exist in the same world?

Going back to this, Spidey is sometimes called a mutant actually, usually by the people who hate mutants to begin with.

I'm in the camp that doesn't like the X-Men being in the same universe as the rest of Marvel though. It's as jarring to me as the Watchmen sharing with DC.
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SmidgeIsntBack posted...

Trayvon posted...

I don't get why the general public seems to have more of a problem with mutants than non-mutants superheroes like Spiderman and Captain America

don't they exist in the same world?

Going back to this, Spidey is sometimes called a mutant actually, usually by the people who hate mutants to begin with.

I'm in the camp that doesn't like the X-Men being in the same universe as the rest of Marvel though. It's as jarring to me as the Watchmen sharing with DC.

Yeah I agree

I know they are the same universe and characters turn up in each other stories and stuff but its just hard to imagine like Iron-Man and Spidey and Captain America in the same universe as the US Government deploying giant pink Sentiels to kill US citizens.

That's the shit Nazis would do and Capn' would fight.

There's also like no villain outside the X-men rogues gallery who couldn't be stopped simply by going "Yo Xavier, its Peter, can you use your magic mind machine to locate Mysterio, tell me where he is and then incapciate him for me? Cheers, thanks."

Yeah sure that wouldn't happen for punks robbing a Wal-Mart but every time a villain is about to end the world?

They just don't Gel together.

Reminds me of that Fantastic Four story where Sue Richards opens up a telekensis force-field buble thing INSIDE someone's organs and then expands it.

And it's just like "Motherfucker if you can do THAT how is anyone ever any kind of threat to you whatsoever?" even like Galactus would be fucked if you opened a bubble inside his brain or heart and expanded it..
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I know they are the same universe and characters turn up in each other stories and stuff but its just hard to imagine like Iron-Man and Spidey and Captain America in the same universe as the US Government deoploying giant pink Sentiels to kill US citizens.

i remember thinking this while reading zero tolerance
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I think if so much of a comic line's writing revolves around the worldbuilding, it probably shouldn't be included into a broader universe.
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SmidgeIsntBack posted...

I think if so much of a comic line's writing revolves around the worldbuilding, it probably shouldn't be included into a broader universe.

Depends on the story.

Smaller scope stories make perfect sense in a broader universe
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RchHomieQuanChi posted...

UnfairRepresent posted...

That's stepping on a snail compared to Jean-Luc Xavier nearly killing everyone. Then killing all his friends

Yeah that happened because Xavier's mind started to go and he started having seizures. How does mutant registration solve that? The only reason Wolverine was able to stop it is because he's Wolverine.

because safeguards would be in place

he would be isolated or have his powers removed
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Nightcrawler? How is he dangerous? One guy with an AR-15 is more dangerous than him.
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jumi posted...

Nightcrawler? How is he dangerous? One guy with an AR-15 is more dangerous than him.

guy with an AR-15 can't teleport into every world leaders house and kill them.

on top of that, Nightcrawler can carry an AR-15.

What's stopping Crawly from teleporting into your daughters bedroom, teleporting her into a pit and raping her for 14 years with no trail.

His hideouts doesn't even need an entrance.

Nightcrawler makes nearly all forms of security literally worthless.

He could Rob 20 banks and make it home for dinner
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UnfairRepresent posted...

jumi posted...

Nightcrawler? How is he dangerous? One guy with an AR-15 is more dangerous than him.

guy with an AR-15 can't teleport into every world leaders house and kill them.

on top of that, Nightcrawler can carry an AR-15.

What's stopping Crawly from teleporting into your daughters bedroom, teleporting her into a pit and raping her for 14 years with no trail.

His hideouts doesn't even need an entrance.

Nightcrawler makes nearly all forms of security literally worthless.

He could Rob 20 banks and make it home for dinner

He gets tired the more he teleports. Also certain technology/powers can literally prevent him from teleporting at all. He's very beatable. And very noticeable.
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UnfairRepresent posted...

RchHomieQuanChi posted...

UnfairRepresent posted...

That's stepping on a snail compared to Jean-Luc Xavier nearly killing everyone. Then killing all his friends

Yeah that happened because Xavier's mind started to go and he started having seizures. How does mutant registration solve that? The only reason Wolverine was able to stop it is because he's Wolverine.

because safeguards would be in place

he would be isolated or have his powers removed

sounds inhumane

smoliske posted...

sounds inhumane

So does the extinction of the human race.
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and he was never seen again
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unlike you I have a job

I don't have time to debate about taking away someones basic human rights which is insane