Current Events > Can someone explain to me why England is murdering this baby?

(+) Yeah! (+)

The kid was given Italian citizenship and they won't let him leave for treatment and they refuse to treat in England?

Socialized medicine leading to death panels? This why I need an AR-15. God knows my kid would be on a plane right now but how can you fight back in a country that makes butter knives illegal.
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Because doctors believe keeping him alive is cruel and it is the state's baby now not yours and shut up.
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Because Alfie is basically a vegetable at this point, and has been for some time.

All this fighting in courts has done is prolong a child's suffering for something that can't be fixed. And no, there is no "maybe" or "small chance". His brain is effectively dead, and unless some medical marvel has occurred in the last day or so we can't change that fact.

Alfie has simply had a life of suffering and forcing him through more of it on a hope that does not exist just because the parents can't let go is not something we should happily allow.

Yes, I get it is hard for the parents, but they are not being objective in the matter (primarily because it IS their child) but just because they are Alfie's parents doesn't mean we should allow them to effectively torture a baby because they don't want to let him go.
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Funkydog posted...

Because Alfie is basically a vegetable at this point, and has been for some time.

All this fighting in courts has done is prolong a child's suffering for something that can't be fixed. And no, there is no "maybe" or "small chance". His brain is effectively dead, and unless some medical marvel has occurred in the last day or so we can't change that fact.

Alfie has simply had a life of suffering and forcing him through more of it on a hope that does not exist just because the parents can't let go is not something we should happily allow.

Yes, I get it is hard for the parents, but they are not being objective in the matter (primarily because it IS their child) but just because they are Alfie's parents doesn't mean we should allow them to effectively torture a baby because they don't want to let him go.

There could be a cure sometime in the next ten years, in which case, the child would still be at most 12 years old.
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Yeah, it's pretty messed up. If there are means for the family to move him and Italy is accepting I dunno why not just let them go. The kid is apparently brain dead from what I understand anyway, so while they are just prolonging the inevitable, he isn't really suffering so just let them do what they want.

I always thought taking someone off life support and just waiting around for them to die was really cruel, anyway... like can't they just euthanize them at that point rather than let them starve or slowly suffocate? >_>
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Everybody is talking about this.

Can somebody please tell me thee facts on this case?

ben1741 posted...

There could be a cure sometime in the next ten years, in which case, the child would still be at most 12 years old.

He's not going to make it that far even on life support. Being on it he basically has no brain left anyway, so all that is being done is prolonging the inevitable and making a baby suffer for it.
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ben1741 posted...

Funkydog posted...

Because Alfie is basically a vegetable at this point, and has been for some time.

All this fighting in courts has done is prolong a child's suffering for something that can't be fixed. And no, there is no "maybe" or "small chance". His brain is effectively dead, and unless some medical marvel has occurred in the last day or so we can't change that fact.

Alfie has simply had a life of suffering and forcing him through more of it on a hope that does not exist just because the parents can't let go is not something we should happily allow.

Yes, I get it is hard for the parents, but they are not being objective in the matter (primarily because it IS their child) but just because they are Alfie's parents doesn't mean we should allow them to effectively torture a baby because they don't want to let him go.

There could be a cure sometime in the next ten years, in which case, the child would still be at most 12 years old.

Cure for what? Are they going to regrow his brain, do you think?
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shockthemonkey posted...

Shuto-uke posted...

Everybody is talking about this.

Can somebody please tell me thee facts on this case?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfie_Evans_case

"In 23 April, Alfie was granted Italian citizenship under the request of Fratelli D'Italia's leader Giorgia Meloni. The Italian Ministry of Foreign Affairs said it hopes Alfie will be allowed "immediate transfer to Italy""

WOW

So how can the UK say they won't allow it? What's their legal basis? That is fucking crazy

Shuto-uke posted...

shockthemonkey posted...

Shuto-uke posted...

Everybody is talking about this.

Can somebody please tell me thee facts on this case?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfie_Evans_case

"In 23 April, Alfie was granted Italian citizenship under the request of Fratelli D'Italia's leader Giorgia Meloni. The Italian Ministry of Foreign Affairs said it hopes Alfie will be allowed "immediate transfer to Italy""

WOW

So how can the UK say they won't allow it? What's their legal basis? That is fucking crazy

Because doctors have deliberated this is not in the best interests of the child. They're not really considering the parent's wishes as a priority, that's the entire dilemma.
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Shuto-uke posted...

So how can the UK say they won't allow it? What's their legal basis? That is fucking crazy

The UK apparently has a law where the state (or maybe certain advocacy groups?) can go before a judge and argue that the child's best interests aren't being served. And going by that same article, it's absolutely in his best interests to be taken off life support. It's stated that he no longer has the neural pathways for taste, sight, hearing, or touch and that his brain is essentially just water and spinal fluid. And any brain activity he does have (or did, wikipedia at least wasn't clear if this is still happening) only happens during seizures. There's no way that can be cured.

That said, I'm not sure I really agree with the government having that kind of power. I think I'm officially on the fence on this one.
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pinky0926 posted...

Shuto-uke posted...

shockthemonkey posted...

Shuto-uke posted...

Everybody is talking about this.

Can somebody please tell me thee facts on this case?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfie_Evans_case

"In 23 April, Alfie was granted Italian citizenship under the request of Fratelli D'Italia's leader Giorgia Meloni. The Italian Ministry of Foreign Affairs said it hopes Alfie will be allowed "immediate transfer to Italy""

WOW

So how can the UK say they won't allow it? What's their legal basis? That is fucking crazy

Because doctors have deliberated this is not in the best interests of the child. They're not really considering the parent's wishes as a priority, that's the entire dilemma.

as much as trump people love to whine about death panels, this case does sound like just that. So if somebody stubs their toe the UK can say that such person must have their entire leg amputated because the powers that be say so?

Shuto-uke posted...

So if somebody stubs their toe the UK can say that such person must have their entire leg amputated because the powers that be say so?

No, doesn't sound like that.
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pegusus123456 posted...

That said, I'm not sure I really agree with the government having that kind of power. I think I'm officially on the fence on this one.

But is it really much different then how social services have the right to take a child away from neglectful or abusive parents?

The parents here appear to be compassionate to their child, but their compassion is based on ignorance.

Consider how you might feel about parents that refuse to vaccinate their children, and whether that should be allowed. I think at some point, somebody has to be able to step in and say enough.
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Shuto-uke posted...

as much as trump people love to whine about death panels, this case does sound like just that. So if somebody stubs their toe the UK can say that such person must have their entire leg amputated because the powers that be say so?

What a fantastical perversion of the argument, I'm genuinely impressed by how completely you missed the point.
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pinky0926 posted...

But is it really much different then how social services have the right to take a child away from neglectful or abusive parents?

The parents here appear to be compassionate to their child, but their compassion is based on ignorance.

Consider how you might feel about parents that refuse to vaccinate their children, and whether that should be allowed. I think at some point, somebody has to be able to step in and say enough.

Tbh, it's more of an emotional thing. Every logical thought I've had leads me to support it, but it still makes me feel uneasy that a government could essentially kill your kid.
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pegusus123456 posted...

Shuto-uke posted...

So how can the UK say they won't allow it? What's their legal basis? That is fucking crazy

The UK apparently has a law where the state (or maybe certain advocacy groups?) can go before a judge and argue that the child's best interests aren't being served. And going by that same article, it's absolutely in his best interests to be taken off life support. It's stated that he no longer has the neural pathways for taste, sight, hearing, or touch and that his brain is essentially just water and spinal fluid. And any brain activity he does have (or did, wikipedia at least wasn't clear if this is still happening) only happens during seizures. There's no way that can be cured.

That said, I'm not sure I really agree with the government having that kind of power. I think I'm officially on the fence on this one.

The childs best interests are to be killed? Did you even read what you wrote before you posted it? There is nothing worse than being dead.
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ben1741 posted...

The childs best interests are to be killed? Did you even read what you wrote before you posted it? There is nothing worse than being dead.

"There is nothing worse than being dead."

This is not what long term terminally ill people will tell you.

The child is already braindead. There is no resolution to this that has a happy ending.

Come at this from another angle: consider the enormous social cost to keep a child on life support when there is absolutely nothing that can be done to improve his condition, because he's a slowly deteriorating braindead vegetable.
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They say he's going to die either way, so why not just let the parents take him to Italy?
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Shuto-uke posted...

as much as trump people love to whine about death panels, this case does sound like just that. So if somebody stubs their toe the UK can say that such person must have their entire leg amputated because the powers that be say so?

Oh yeah, that's ABSOLUTELY what that means. No other way to take that other than your totally legit scenario.
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Thanks guys didn't know this. Still don't think it's any of the states damned business.

New question. English police said they'd be monitoring tweets for dissent. What kind of punishment will they give out for what kind of tweets?

Would they send someone to America to take me down for making this post.
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Anyway, this sounds like the UK version of Terri Schiavo.
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pinky0926 posted...

ben1741 posted...

The childs best interests are to be killed? Did you even read what you wrote before you posted it? There is nothing worse than being dead.

"There is nothing worse than being dead."

This is not what long term terminally ill people will tell you.

The child is already braindead. There is no resolution to this that has a happy ending.

Come at this from another angle: consider the enormous social cost to keep a child on life support when there is absolutely nothing that can be done to improve his condition, because he's a slowly deteriorating braindead vegetable.

When they die its over. No more them. Its objective that the worst life is better than the best death.
Theres always hope for a miracle of modern medicine. Stem cell research could revitalize his brain.
What even is social cost? Thats not a thing.
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why dont you try caring about the suffering people in your country and not some braindead kid in europe
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Cj_WlLL_VVlN posted...

Thanks guys didn't know this. Still don't think it's any of the states damned business.

New question. English police said they'd be monitoring tweets for dissent. What kind of punishment will they give out for what kind of tweets?

Would they send someone to America to take me down for making this post.

Is this a real post
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ben1741 posted...

The childs best interests are to be killed? Did you even read what you wrote before you posted it? There is nothing worse than being dead.

In order: Yes. Yes. No.
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VTBM posted...

They say he's going to die either way, so why not just let the parents take him to Italy?

Because it is just prolonging how much suffering he will be in until he does die.

That is all this ultimately amounts too, even though the parents are doing it for compassionate reasons. They are basing their hope on something that does not exist and letting them make someone else suffer for it is something I absolutely think a government should be called in to prevent.
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ben1741 posted...

When they die its over. No more them. Its objective that the worst life is better than the best death.
Theres always hope for a miracle of modern medicine. Stem cell research could revitalize his brain.
What even is social cost? Thats not a thing.

And yet despite your argument there are ethical euthanasia movements the world over with many people in pallative care wishing they could die sooner.

Clearly not everybody agrees that living in perpetual agony is better than not living. Like, a lot of people, most of them in the situation where they need to consider it.

Maybe go read a bunch of that before writing down arguments that don't match up with reality.

A miracle of modern medicine...do you know how far away what you just said is from reality? Like saying we should stockpile our beanie babies in case they can be converted to fusion power in the next 3 years.

There is nothing in the medicinal world anywhere close to regrowing an entire human brain in the next decade. He will die long before then. If he doesn't it will be horrible.
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pinky0926 posted...

ben1741 posted...

When they die its over. No more them. Its objective that the worst life is better than the best death.
Theres always hope for a miracle of modern medicine. Stem cell research could revitalize his brain.
What even is social cost? Thats not a thing.

And yet despite your argument there are ethical euthanasia movements the world over with many people in pallative care wishing they could die sooner.

Clearly not everybody agrees that living in perpetual agony is better than not living. Like, a lot of people, most of them in the situation where they need to consider it.

Maybe go read a bunch of that before writing down arguments that don't match up with reality.

A miracle of modern medicine...do you know how far away what you just said is from reality? Like saying we should stockpile our beanie babies in case they can be converted to fusion power in the next 3 years.

There is nothing in the medicinal world anywhere close to regrowing an entire human brain in the next decade. He will die long before then. If he doesn't it will be horrible.

It already is horrible, is the issue.

The only thing the kid really experiences are his seizures. Beyond that, he knows nothing else. I think people don't seem to realise just how bad it is for the kid and that no hope actually exists to change the reality of the situation. It is why we listen to doctors on medical matters over what someone with no training in the field says.
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pinky0926 posted...

Cj_WlLL_VVlN posted...

Thanks guys didn't know this. Still don't think it's any of the states damned business.

New question. English police said they'd be monitoring tweets for dissent. What kind of punishment will they give out for what kind of tweets?

Would they send someone to America to take me down for making this post.

Is this a real post

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/951222/alfie-evans-latest-updates-merseyside-police-warning-alder-hey-childrens-hospital
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Cj_WlLL_VVlN posted...

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/951222/alfie-evans-latest-updates-merseyside-police-warning-alder-hey-childrens-hospital

"dissent" =/= literal death threats directed specifically at hospital staff

Don't worry bro, nobody is coming after anybody for voicing their disapproval of the legal system.
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pinky0926 posted...

Cj_WlLL_VVlN posted...

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/951222/alfie-evans-latest-updates-merseyside-police-warning-alder-hey-childrens-hospital

"dissent" =/= literal death threats directed specifically at hospital staff

Don't worry bro, nobody is coming after anybody for voicing their disapproval of the legal system.

Threatening OR malicious... Malicious seems very vague.
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It's a horrible situation for all parties involved, but ultimately it is the kindest thing to do to let the poor kid pass in peace.

It'd be a different story if there was the remotest chance of recovery, or - like with Charlie Gard - an experimental or unproven procedure that could at least be tried, but there simply isn't. His brain is literally gone, he is only "alive" in the most rudimentary sense, and even the doctors in Italy that the family want to take the kid to have flat out said that there is absolutely nothing at all that can be done. This isn't a situation where people are arguing over switching off life support for the hell of it, this is the equivalent of a guy flatlining and the doctors making the call to stop using the defibrillators, only in this case it would be a call made after the docs have been using the defibrillators on the corpse for over a year.

It's a wretched situation for the parents to be in, but ultimately it is unspeakably cruel on both the child and the family to keep the kid on life support. Even the Italian medics that the family want to take the kid to have said this. They themselves are not in favour of transferring Alfie.

I must say, I find something uncomfortable about the fact that the Catholic Church has now got involved twice in two years in the case of a terminal child, trying to get the patient moved to their own medical facilities against the express and informed wishes of the courts, the UK's medical experts, and their own Italian experts. In both cases the patients' parents will if course be looking for any slither of hope, and there seems something pretty predatory about the way that the church seems to be fuelling legal cases that provide and build on that hope without any basis in reality at all and in the face of undeniable, irrefutable and cast iron scientific evidence to the contrary.

Unlike the Charlie Gard case last year, though, where there was animosity but ultimately respect on both sides, I have to say that the family's supporters have behaved despicably. Literally storming a children's hospital, threatening and berating doctors, spreading absolute nonsense on social media about how the kid is getting "a lethal injection", even linking arms in the street outside the hospital preventing an ambulance from getting there. It's awful.I think part of the reason that this case has blown up so much is that the dad is a legit scumbag (previously convicted of stabbing someone for example) who is playing up to the case and trying to stir as much shit as possible - he has even began legal proceedings for "conspiracy to commit murder", which is bang out of order. I'm not saying that a parent shouldn't do all they can to save their kid, and I'm obviously not saying he deserves to be in this position, but in his anger he seems to be on a crusade to attack the doctors rather than to protect his son.
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Shuto-uke posted...

as much as trump people love to whine about death panels, this case does sound like just that. So if somebody stubs their toe the UK can say that such person must have their entire leg amputated because the powers that be say so?

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Cj_WlLL_VVlN posted...

pinky0926 posted...

Cj_WlLL_VVlN posted...

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/951222/alfie-evans-latest-updates-merseyside-police-warning-alder-hey-childrens-hospital

"dissent" =/= literal death threats directed specifically at hospital staff

Don't worry bro, nobody is coming after anybody for voicing their disapproval of the legal system.

Threatening OR malicious... Malicious seems very vague.

Because you want it to play into your 1984 narrative, and not simply use a bit of common sense and realise that the police have better things to be doing than constructing a monster database of all twitter uses who dissented with the government over a relatively minor issue.
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pinky0926 posted...

Cj_WlLL_VVlN posted...

pinky0926 posted...

Cj_WlLL_VVlN posted...

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/951222/alfie-evans-latest-updates-merseyside-police-warning-alder-hey-childrens-hospital

"dissent" =/= literal death threats directed specifically at hospital staff

Don't worry bro, nobody is coming after anybody for voicing their disapproval of the legal system.

Threatening OR malicious... Malicious seems very vague.

Because you want it to play into your 1984 narrative, and not simply use a bit of common sense and realise that the police have better things to be doing than constructing a monster database of all twitter uses who dissented with the government over a relatively minor issue.

Holy shit dude. You're right. The state would never do anything wrong. You are a loyal servant of the crown. I'm sorry for putting you in danger and any British police should know pinky has never spoken an ill word about your great nation.
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Cj_WlLL_VVlN posted...

Holy shit dude. You're right. The state would never do anything wrong. You are a loyal servant of the crown. I'm sorry for putting you in danger and any British police should know pinky has never spoken an ill word about your great nation.

The state does an awful lot wrong. A fucking ton wrong actually. Don't get me started on all the criticisms I have of the British government, it will end up a laundry list.

Protecting hospital staff (and these parents) from death threats = not wrong.
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ben1741 posted...

The childs best interests are to be killed? Did you even read what you wrote before you posted it? There is nothing worse than being dead.

The child is--for all intents and purposes--already dead.

ben1741 posted...

Theres always hope for a miracle of modern medicine. Stem cell research could revitalize his brain.

And how long will that miracle take to happen? It's a gamble that could take decades. And there's no way the child will live for that long.
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pinky0926 posted...

Cj_WlLL_VVlN posted...

Holy shit dude. You're right. The state would never do anything wrong. You are a loyal servant of the crown. I'm sorry for putting you in danger and any British police should know pinky has never spoken an ill word about your great nation.

The state does an awful lot wrong. A fucking ton wrong actually. Don't get me started on all the criticisms I have of the British government, it will end up a laundry list.

Protecting hospital staff (and these parents) from death threats = not wrong.

He was just joking guys he would never question you. Don't get him.

But what about tweets like "fuck these doctors, fuck this government and fuck this hospital, let the boy live!"

Wouldn't that be malicious.
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Cj_WlLL_VVlN posted...

pinky0926 posted...

Cj_WlLL_VVlN posted...

Holy shit dude. You're right. The state would never do anything wrong. You are a loyal servant of the crown. I'm sorry for putting you in danger and any British police should know pinky has never spoken an ill word about your great nation.

The state does an awful lot wrong. A fucking ton wrong actually. Don't get me started on all the criticisms I have of the British government, it will end up a laundry list.

Protecting hospital staff (and these parents) from death threats = not wrong.

He was just joking guys he would never question you. Don't get him.

But what about tweets like "fuck these doctors, fuck this government and fuck this hospital, let the boy live!"

Wouldn't that be malicious.

I think you're just being deliberately obtuse at this point.
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So I've been to this place called Christopher's in London a few times. Haven't been in a couple years. It's a steak house not the best I've ever had but pretty good and there bar is great.

Id like to go back sometime but I need to know if they now precut the steak? Do I have to cut it with a spoon? Can I get some sort of license to rent a knife?
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Why'd you leave. I need to know!
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shockthemonkey posted...

pegusus123456 posted...

Shuto-uke posted...

So how can the UK say they won't allow it? What's their legal basis? That is fucking crazy

The UK apparently has a law where the state (or maybe certain advocacy groups?) can go before a judge and argue that the child's best interests aren't being served. And going by that same article, it's absolutely in his best interests to be taken off life support. It's stated that he no longer has the neural pathways for taste, sight, hearing, or touch and that his brain is essentially just water and spinal fluid. And any brain activity he does have (or did, wikipedia at least wasn't clear if this is still happening) only happens during seizures. There's no way that can be cured.

That said, I'm not sure I really agree with the government having that kind of power. I think I'm officially on the fence on this one.

Yeah, like I feel like the government is making the right arguments for the childs best interests but it also seems fucking weird that they can just overstep the parents and another country like this.

should be like america where you can justl ock your kid in a basement and refuse him medical treatment because kids are your property and religion.
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should be like america where you can justl ock your kid in a basement and refuse him medical treatment because kids are your property and religion.

That's not true, they'd get charged! In England however there was a story about a kid forced to live under a staircase to keep him from his religion.
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Don't forget about this one.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jahi_McMath_case
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Monolith1676 posted...

Don't forget about this one.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jahi_McMath_case

Good to see people fighting for their kids. Despicable to think doctors can just decide to murder people.
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Cj_WlLL_VVlN posted...

Monolith1676 posted...

Don't forget about this one.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jahi_McMath_case

Good to see people fighting for their kids. Despicable to think doctors can just decide to murder people.

I know, right?

The fuck do doctors think, thinking they know more about someone than their PARENTS. Their parents BELIEVE they can come back from no brain activity and all these fancy schmancy "doctors" with their "degrees" are really just licensed killers the government has hired to kill god fearing supporters of FREEDOM.

.
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