Current Events > Is it ethical to cure people who aren't neurotypical?

(+) Yeah! (+)

3deep5u posted...

P4wn4g3 posted...

The inverse is not true.

p implies q does not mean q implies p, yes...... thank you for stating a fact that does nothing to support your argument

So you concede there is a difference finally.
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I have a young daughter with autism. She attends ABA therapy five days a week.

If I could just cure her autism outright, instead of years of therapy, I would without a second thought.
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"Is it ethical to chemically castrate Alan Turing?"

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P4wn4g3 posted...

So you concede there is a difference finally.

My position is that psychological disorders have neurological causes.

Asking if it's physical or psychological implies that psychological disorders don't have physical causes.
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Yeah honestly I'd also have my depression and anxiety cured.
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3deep5u posted...

P4wn4g3 posted...

So you concede there is a difference finally.

My position is that psychological disorders have neurological causes.

Asking if it's physical or psychological implies that psychological disorders don't have physical causes.

Your position negates the existence of all physical Neurological conditions and is therefore stupid. CP exists, Downs exists, hydrocephalus exists, none of these are some pseudoscience bullshit pulled out of the air tried to be justified as a physical disability because they are clearly physical disabilities. If you can't accept this then I see no point with trying to reason anything else out with you.
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Esrac posted...

I have a young daughter with autism. She attends ABA therapy five days a week.

If I could just cure her autism outright, instead of years of therapy, I would without a second thought.

ABA is legitimately damaging and traumatizing to autistic children. if you care about her, get her out of there
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P4wn4g3 posted...

Your position negates the existence of all physical Neurological conditions

It literally doesn't. You just assumed that it does. GG. I'll just assume your position next time too.
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averagejoel posted...

Esrac posted...

I have a young daughter with autism. She attends ABA therapy five days a week.

If I could just cure her autism outright, instead of years of therapy, I would without a second thought.

ABA is legitimately damaging and traumatizing to autistic children. if you care about her, get her out of there

Perhaps you should familiarize yourself instead of saying things like "I heard this form of ABA therapy is bad, so they all must be bad."
http://blog.theautismsite.com/aba-therapy-controversy/
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I'd like to cure myself of my humanity and become an anthropomorphic dog.
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3deep5u posted...

P4wn4g3 posted...

Your position negates the existence of all physical Neurological conditions

It literally doesn't. You just assumed that it does. GG. I'll just assume your position next time too.

See I was going to then do this thing where I said yes there is a physiological component to all mood disorders, particularly brain chemistry, and yes it has been shown that things like addiction are often genetic, but it appears we aren't going to get there. Oversimplification of neurological issues annoys me, probably due to my own experiences with it.
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averagejoel posted...

Esrac posted...

I have a young daughter with autism. She attends ABA therapy five days a week.

If I could just cure her autism outright, instead of years of therapy, I would without a second thought.

ABA is legitimately damaging and traumatizing to autistic children. if you care about her, get her out of there

I'm not inclined to take you at your word.
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Esrac posted...

averagejoel posted...

Esrac posted...

I have a young daughter with autism. She attends ABA therapy five days a week.

If I could just cure her autism outright, instead of years of therapy, I would without a second thought.

ABA is legitimately damaging and traumatizing to autistic children. if you care about her, get her out of there

I'm not inclined to take you at your word.

I mean, ABA certainly does have some controversy. How substantial or factual it is, I don't know.
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Esrac posted...

averagejoel posted...

Esrac posted...

I have a young daughter with autism. She attends ABA therapy five days a week.

If I could just cure her autism outright, instead of years of therapy, I would without a second thought.

ABA is legitimately damaging and traumatizing to autistic children. if you care about her, get her out of there

I'm not inclined to take you at your word.

it's basically dog training for humans. it won't "cure" your daughter's autism. it won't make her neurotypical. all it does is train her out of perfectly legitimate behaviours just because they're stigmatized as "weird". it's abuse

"You see, you start pretty much from scratch when you work with an autistic child. You have a person in the physical sense - they have hair, a nose and a mouth - but they are not people in the psychological sense. One way to look at the job of helping autistic kids is to see it as a matter of constructing a person. You have the raw materials, but you have to build the person."
-Ivar Lovaas, the founder of ABA

Lovaas literally said that he didn't believe autistics were "as human" as neurotypicals, and supported the use of electroshock therapy on patients. this "therapy" is all based on his ideas.

I highly recommend reading this, as well as the follow-up piece linked at the top:
https://madasbirdsblog.wordpress.com/2017/04/03/i-abused-children-for-a-living/
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averagejoel posted...

Esrac posted...

averagejoel posted...

Esrac posted...

I have a young daughter with autism. She attends ABA therapy five days a week.

If I could just cure her autism outright, instead of years of therapy, I would without a second thought.

ABA is legitimately damaging and traumatizing to autistic children. if you care about her, get her out of there

I'm not inclined to take you at your word.

it's basically dog training for humans. it won't "cure" your daughter's autism. it won't make her neurotypical. all it does is train her out of perfectly legitimate behaviours just because they're stigmatized as "weird". it's abuse

"You see, you start pretty much from scratch when you work with an autistic child. You have a person in the physical sense - they have hair, a nose and a mouth - but they are not people in the psychological sense. One way to look at the job of helping autistic kids is to see it as a matter of constructing a person. You have the raw materials, but you have to build the person."
-Ivar Lovaas, the founder of ABA

Lovaas literally said that he didn't believe autistics were "as human" as neurotypicals, and supported the use of electroshock therapy on patients. this "therapy" is all based on his ideas.

I highly recommend reading this, as well as the follow-up piece linked at the top:
https://madasbirdsblog.wordpress.com/2017/04/03/i-abused-children-for-a-living/

I'm aware of what it is. That it won't cure her autism, as there currently are no cures, but is therapy for the behavioral symptoms that stem from her autism. That they're working to encourage more socially functional behavior. That's not abuse, that's trying to help her get to a point where she'll hopefully be able to perform in society with other people.

You don't know what you're talking about and I'm not interested in some little blog you read.
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3deep5u posted...

I should clarify, I'm talking about high-functioning individuals but individuals who would still be diagnosed with some kind of disorder that has to do with their brain.

Psychopaths, autistic people, depressive people, people with bizarre or even dark interests and fetishes, etc just use your imagination.

Would curing someone like Van Gogh or Bill Gates have been the right thing to do?

It depends. Ones that don't negatively impact the immediate well being of a person have no real reason to be eliminated. Conditions that do, if the person is endangered by them, then I guess so?

Like, I have a variety of weird fetishes, and generalized anxiety disorder. Do I want my fetishes cured? No. Do I want my anxiety disorder cured? Yes. It's too big of a margin.
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Esrac posted...

averagejoel posted...

Esrac posted...

averagejoel posted...

Esrac posted...

I have a young daughter with autism. She attends ABA therapy five days a week.

If I could just cure her autism outright, instead of years of therapy, I would without a second thought.

ABA is legitimately damaging and traumatizing to autistic children. if you care about her, get her out of there

I'm not inclined to take you at your word.

it's basically dog training for humans. it won't "cure" your daughter's autism. it won't make her neurotypical. all it does is train her out of perfectly legitimate behaviours just because they're stigmatized as "weird". it's abuse

"You see, you start pretty much from scratch when you work with an autistic child. You have a person in the physical sense - they have hair, a nose and a mouth - but they are not people in the psychological sense. One way to look at the job of helping autistic kids is to see it as a matter of constructing a person. You have the raw materials, but you have to build the person."
-Ivar Lovaas, the founder of ABA

Lovaas literally said that he didn't believe autistics were "as human" as neurotypicals, and supported the use of electroshock therapy on patients. this "therapy" is all based on his ideas.

I highly recommend reading this, as well as the follow-up piece linked at the top:
https://madasbirdsblog.wordpress.com/2017/04/03/i-abused-children-for-a-living/

I'm aware of what it is. That it won't cure her autism, as there currently are no cures, but is therapy for the behavioral symptoms that stem from her autism. That they're working to encourage more socially functional behavior. That's not abuse, that's trying to help her get to a point where she'll hopefully be able to perform in society with other people.

You don't know what you're talking about and I'm not interested in some little blog you read.

autism is not a disease, and attempts to find a "cure" have not ended well for autistic people, as I'm sure you know.

the "behavioral symptoms" are not problems. they're legitimate coping mechanisms, usually to deal with sensory overload. when deprived of these mechanisms, autistic people can be put in a great deal of distress. most autistic people who went through this stuff have PTSD or C-PTSD stemming from it.

the fact that you want her to "perform" in society, rather than be appreciated for who she is, is an indication that you are part of the problem. there are plenty of autistic people who can be themselves and live ordinary lives. the important thing is making your household more accessible to her, rather than trying to change who she is (as I mentioned, you won't change who she is, and this disconnect causes actual mental health issues). this therapy is not done to help autistic people; it's to make neurotypical people feel better about themselves.

I am autistic, and I am 100% confident that I'm more informed on these issues than you are.
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ForestLogic posted...

3deep5u posted...

I should clarify, I'm talking about high-functioning individuals but individuals who would still be diagnosed with some kind of disorder that has to do with their brain.

Psychopaths, autistic people, depressive people, people with bizarre or even dark interests and fetishes, etc just use your imagination.

Would curing someone like Van Gogh or Bill Gates have been the right thing to do?

It depends. Ones that don't negatively impact the immediate well being of a person have no real reason to be eliminated. Conditions that do, if the person is endangered by them, then I guess so?

Like, I have a variety of weird fetishes, and generalized anxiety disorder. Do I want my fetishes cured? No. Do I want my anxiety disorder cured? Yes. It's too big of a margin.

It's not and shouldn't be just about what endangers others and themselves. We have gradations of autism that can be very debilitating. It's not just "weird" behavioral quirks.

In the case of my daughter, her social and verbal skills are significantly stunted. She's four and she can't have a conversation with us or other people. Her speech skills are limited to very basic exclamations or requests like "I want a snack". And that took quite a bit of ABA therapy to accomplish, before that she was only able to speak gibberish and the extent of her communication was to kind of push or pull us toward whatever she wanted. Even the little verbal communication we can get from her often takes some (or a lot) of specific prompting.

She has some vocabulary these days and can identify things, letters, numbers, and some people she knows, but she can't put those together to convey her thoughts, whatever they are.

We also have some relevant concerns about her ability to take care of herself in the short and long term. My adult fear is that she will have to live with my wife and me and we will have to take care of her until we die. And then who knows who will have to take care of her after that.
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averagejoel posted...

autism is not a disease, and attempts to find a "cure" have not ended well for autistic people, as I'm sure you know.

the "behavioral symptoms" are not problems. they're legitimate coping mechanisms, usually to deal with sensory overload. when deprived of these mechanisms, autistic people can be put in a great deal of distress. most autistic people who went through this stuff have PTSD or C-PTSD stemming from it.

the fact that you want her to "perform" in society, rather than be appreciated for who she is, is an indication that you are part of the problem. there are plenty of autistic people who can be themselves and live ordinary lives. the important thing is making your household more accessible to her, rather than trying to change who she is (as I mentioned, you won't change who she is, and this disconnect causes actual mental health issues). this therapy is not done to help autistic people; it's to make neurotypical people feel better about themselves.

I am autistic, and I am 100% confident that I'm more informed on these issues than you are.

The fact of the matter is the people with autism live in a neurotypical world. It is disingenuous at best and harmful at worst to suggest that society is going to accommodate people from cradle to grave. That just isnt real. We have to let all people know what behaviors are acceptable regardless of any underlying disability.

While calling someone less human because they have autism is certainly out of line, trying to come up with new ways to help them integrate into the world without the world having to integrate for them is a much better way of handling things than the alternative.

I have Aspergers and my stepson is autistic. One of the things I had to wrap my head around before I married my wife was the realization that he will be living with us for the rest of our lives or at least until he moves in with one of his brothers, that there will be social cues he will never figure out, and that he probably wont ever be able to hold down a real job.

Dont sit back and pretend that you possess some moral superiority and that people bring autistic kids closer to the real world is harming them. We train our son to be able to do basic things which will hopefully allow him to do for himself. Someday he may have to be able to do so.
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Esrac posted...

ForestLogic posted...

3deep5u posted...

I should clarify, I'm talking about high-functioning individuals but individuals who would still be diagnosed with some kind of disorder that has to do with their brain.

Psychopaths, autistic people, depressive people, people with bizarre or even dark interests and fetishes, etc just use your imagination.

Would curing someone like Van Gogh or Bill Gates have been the right thing to do?

It depends. Ones that don't negatively impact the immediate well being of a person have no real reason to be eliminated. Conditions that do, if the person is endangered by them, then I guess so?

Like, I have a variety of weird fetishes, and generalized anxiety disorder. Do I want my fetishes cured? No. Do I want my anxiety disorder cured? Yes. It's too big of a margin.

It's not and shouldn't be just about what endangers others and themselves. We have gradations of autism that can be very debilitating. It's not just "weird" behavioral quirks.

In the case of my daughter, her social and verbal skills are significantly stunted. She's four and she can't have a conversation with us or other people. Her speech skills are limited to very basic exclamations or requests like "I want a snack". And that took quite a bit of ABA therapy to accomplish, before that she was only able to speak gibberish and the extent of her communication was to kind of push or pull us toward whatever she wanted. Even the little verbal communication we can get from her often takes some (or a lot) of specific prompting.

She has some vocabulary these days and can identify things, letters, numbers, and some people she knows, but she can't put those together to convey her thoughts, whatever they are.

We also have some relevant concerns about her ability to take care of herself in the short and long term. My adult fear is that she will have to live with my wife and me and we will have to take care of her until we die. And then who knows who will have to take care of her after that.

Uhhhhh... Did you mean to reply to me?
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averagejoel posted...

autism is not a disease, and attempts to find a "cure" have not ended well for autistic people, as I'm sure you know.

the "behavioral symptoms" are not problems. they're legitimate coping mechanisms, usually to deal with sensory overload. when deprived of these mechanisms, autistic people can be put in a great deal of distress. most autistic people who went through this stuff have PTSD or C-PTSD stemming from it.

the fact that you want her to "perform" in society, rather than be appreciated for who she is, is an indication that you are part of the problem. there are plenty of autistic people who can be themselves and live ordinary lives. the important thing is making your household more accessible to her, rather than trying to change who she is (as I mentioned, you won't change who she is, and this disconnect causes actual mental health issues). this therapy is not done to help autistic people; it's to make neurotypical people feel better about themselves.

I am autistic, and I am 100% confident that I'm more informed on these issues than you are.

This post was not only stupid but harmful.
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C7D posted...

averagejoel posted...

autism is not a disease, and attempts to find a "cure" have not ended well for autistic people, as I'm sure you know.

the "behavioral symptoms" are not problems. they're legitimate coping mechanisms, usually to deal with sensory overload. when deprived of these mechanisms, autistic people can be put in a great deal of distress. most autistic people who went through this stuff have PTSD or C-PTSD stemming from it.

the fact that you want her to "perform" in society, rather than be appreciated for who she is, is an indication that you are part of the problem. there are plenty of autistic people who can be themselves and live ordinary lives. the important thing is making your household more accessible to her, rather than trying to change who she is (as I mentioned, you won't change who she is, and this disconnect causes actual mental health issues). this therapy is not done to help autistic people; it's to make neurotypical people feel better about themselves.

I am autistic, and I am 100% confident that I'm more informed on these issues than you are.

The fact of the matter is the people with autism live in a neurotypical world. It is disingenuous at best and harmful at worst to suggest that society is going to accommodate people from cradle to grave. That just isnt real. We have to let all people know what behaviors are acceptable regardless of any underlying disability.

While calling someone less human because they have autism is certainly out of line, trying to come up with new ways to help them integrate into the world without the world having to integrate for them is a much better way of handling things than the alternative.

I have Aspergers and my stepson is autistic. One of the things I had to wrap my head around before I married my wife was the realization that he will be living with us for the rest of our lives or at least until he moves in with one of his brothers, that there will be social cues he will never figure out, and that he probably wont ever be able to hold down a real job.

Dont sit back and pretend that you possess some moral superiority and that people bring autistic kids closer to the real world is harming them. We train our son to be able to do basic things which will hopefully allow him to do for himself. Someday he may have to be able to do so.

ok? parents teaching their kids to do stuff is not at all the same as ABA, which was what I was talking about.

also FYI "asperger's" is now called "high functioning autism", a label which has its own problems, but is better than labelling it as distinct from other autism spectrum disorders
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prince_leo posted...

Fishy posted...

I think the womb question is much more interesting. They haven't developed personalities yet at that point.

I don't think I can blame any parent for wanting their children to be neurotypical. if we have gene editing technology, anyone WITH ACCESS is going to want to make their children more beautiful, smart, healthy, creative, etc. than they would have been

There is the problem. Who gets access? An inescapable form of discrimination would set in, and we could never go back from that.
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COVxy posted...

averagejoel posted...

autism is not a disease, and attempts to find a "cure" have not ended well for autistic people, as I'm sure you know.

the "behavioral symptoms" are not problems. they're legitimate coping mechanisms, usually to deal with sensory overload. when deprived of these mechanisms, autistic people can be put in a great deal of distress. most autistic people who went through this stuff have PTSD or C-PTSD stemming from it.

the fact that you want her to "perform" in society, rather than be appreciated for who she is, is an indication that you are part of the problem. there are plenty of autistic people who can be themselves and live ordinary lives. the important thing is making your household more accessible to her, rather than trying to change who she is (as I mentioned, you won't change who she is, and this disconnect causes actual mental health issues). this therapy is not done to help autistic people; it's to make neurotypical people feel better about themselves.

I am autistic, and I am 100% confident that I'm more informed on these issues than you are.

This post was not only stupid but harmful.

this topic started out extremely close to eugenics, and arrived there within the first few posts
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averagejoel posted...

C7D posted...

averagejoel posted...

autism is not a disease, and attempts to find a "cure" have not ended well for autistic people, as I'm sure you know.

the "behavioral symptoms" are not problems. they're legitimate coping mechanisms, usually to deal with sensory overload. when deprived of these mechanisms, autistic people can be put in a great deal of distress. most autistic people who went through this stuff have PTSD or C-PTSD stemming from it.

the fact that you want her to "perform" in society, rather than be appreciated for who she is, is an indication that you are part of the problem. there are plenty of autistic people who can be themselves and live ordinary lives. the important thing is making your household more accessible to her, rather than trying to change who she is (as I mentioned, you won't change who she is, and this disconnect causes actual mental health issues). this therapy is not done to help autistic people; it's to make neurotypical people feel better about themselves.

I am autistic, and I am 100% confident that I'm more informed on these issues than you are.

The fact of the matter is the people with autism live in a neurotypical world. It is disingenuous at best and harmful at worst to suggest that society is going to accommodate people from cradle to grave. That just isnt real. We have to let all people know what behaviors are acceptable regardless of any underlying disability.

While calling someone less human because they have autism is certainly out of line, trying to come up with new ways to help them integrate into the world without the world having to integrate for them is a much better way of handling things than the alternative.

I have Aspergers and my stepson is autistic. One of the things I had to wrap my head around before I married my wife was the realization that he will be living with us for the rest of our lives or at least until he moves in with one of his brothers, that there will be social cues he will never figure out, and that he probably wont ever be able to hold down a real job.

Dont sit back and pretend that you possess some moral superiority and that people bring autistic kids closer to the real world is harming them. We train our son to be able to do basic things which will hopefully allow him to do for himself. Someday he may have to be able to do so.

ok? parents teaching their kids to do stuff is not at all the same as ABA, which was what I was talking about.

also FYI "asperger's" is now called "high functioning autism", a label which has its own problems, but is better than labelling it as distinct from other autism spectrum disorders

At least they are doing something. Are their methods flawed? I dont know. I dont concern myself with them as they dont matter until they come up with something that works. Im betting they werent experimenting with kids without their parental consent.

Also, I dont really care what the labels say. I have difficulty with communication which is both effective for me and the person to whom Im speaking. I usually just tell people whatever I think they want to hear because I know its easier for me. I also manipulate circumstances to get what I want. I dont understand psychology as a science because it doesnt influence how I live my daily life.
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averagejoel posted...

this topic started out extremely close to eugenics, and arrived there within the first few posts

Doesn't make stating that autism is perfectly normal and healthy a moronic statement.

Yeah, like just let your child bash their head into the wall repeatedly until they have additional brain damage! Just normal behavior!
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C7D posted...

At least they are doing something. Are their methods flawed? I dont know. I dont concern myself with them as they dont matter until they come up with something that works. Im betting they werent experimenting with kids without their parental consent.

what do you mean you don't know? the guy who invented ABA literally used electroshock "therapy" to try and "cure" it

and parents of autistic children are often shitty and abusive too, so "parental consent" is generally not an issue

you should read the link i posted previously in this topic
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COVxy posted...

averagejoel posted...

this topic started out extremely close to eugenics, and arrived there within the first few posts

Doesn't make stating that autism is perfectly normal and healthy a moronic statement.

Yeah, like just let your child bash their head into the wall repeatedly until they have additional brain damage! Just normal behavior!

self-harming behaviours are not what I was talking about. please don't pretend that they are the only behaviours typical of autistic people
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And yet they are the core behavior that ABA targets, most often.
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averagejoel posted...

C7D posted...

At least they are doing something. Are their methods flawed? I dont know. I dont concern myself with them as they dont matter until they come up with something that works. Im betting they werent experimenting with kids without their parental consent.

what do you mean you don't know? the guy who invented ABA literally used electroshock "therapy" to try and "cure" it

and parents of autistic children are often shitty and abusive too, so "parental consent" is generally not an issue

you should read the link i posted previously in this topic

Oh wait... it actually works about 90% of the time. https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/news/articles/self-harming-behavior-in-children-with-autism-can-electroconvulsive-therapy-help

Whats better: a kid killing him self from self injuring or shocking him every now and again so he doesnt continue to injure himself?

Fortunately for you, you dont have to make that choice and get to sit back in the catbird seat judging their parenting methodologies.
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COVxy posted...

And yet they are the core behavior that ABA targets, most often.

cool. ABA is abusive regardless of which behaviours they target

C7D posted...

Oh wait... it actually works about 90% of the time. https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/news/articles/self-harming-behavior-in-children-with-autism-can-electroconvulsive-therapy-help

Whats better: a kid killing him self from self injuring or shocking him every now and again so he doesnt continue to injure himself?

Fortunately for you, you dont have to make that choice and get to sit back in the catbird seat judging their parenting methodologies.

ABA is abuse, regardless of whether or not it works. it's not done to help autistic people; it's done for the convenience of neurotypicals
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averagejoel posted...

COVxy posted...

And yet they are the core behavior that ABA targets, most often.

cool. ABA is abusive regardless of which behaviours they target

C7D posted...

Oh wait... it actually works about 90% of the time. https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/news/articles/self-harming-behavior-in-children-with-autism-can-electroconvulsive-therapy-help

Whats better: a kid killing him self from self injuring or shocking him every now and again so he doesnt continue to injure himself?

Fortunately for you, you dont have to make that choice and get to sit back in the catbird seat judging their parenting methodologies.

ABA is abuse, regardless of whether or not it works. it's not done to help autistic people; it's done for the convenience of neurotypicals

Is it better to leave them locked in a padded room or to let them kill themselves? Honest question...
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C7D posted...

Is it better to leave them locked in a padded room or to let them kill themselves? Honest question...

false dichotomy. there are ways to help autistic people that do not involve leaving them "locked in a padded room"
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averagejoel posted...

cool. ABA is abusive regardless of which behaviours they target

Right, modifying behavior to be less harmful is abuse. Gotchya.
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COVxy posted...

averagejoel posted...

cool. ABA is abusive regardless of which behaviours they target

Right, modifying behavior to be less harmful is abuse. Gotchya.

don't do this. it's disingenuous. you usually have a good track record for being reasonable. read the link i posted. educate yourself
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averagejoel posted...

COVxy posted...

averagejoel posted...

cool. ABA is abusive regardless of which behaviours they target

Right, modifying behavior to be less harmful is abuse. Gotchya.

don't do this. it's disingenuous. you usually have a good track record for being reasonable. read the link i posted. educate yourself

No, I understand the methodologies. It's not abuse, you just see it as attacking your identity.

Further, you should really calm down on your criticism of ECT. It's really effective on several types of disorders, probably because of the influx of BDNF after changing the properties of the blood brain barrier.
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averagejoel posted...

C7D posted...

Is it better to leave them locked in a padded room or to let them kill themselves? Honest question...

false dichotomy. there are ways to help autistic people that do not involve leaving them "locked in a padded room"

Not in the people that are receiving this therapy... Its a last ditch effort after everything else has been tried. When the brain is undergoing catatonia, the kid doesnt even know they are hurting themselves. The brains electrical signals are messed up. These people are fixing them.
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Depends on what the ethics of the time are. They're not fixed.

I'm not sure about forced treatment of people to bring them into line with the majority but I know that I'm not in favour of the whole "celebrate our differences" and treating abnormalities as though they are good or desirable. Support yes, celebrate no.
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COVxy posted...

averagejoel posted...

COVxy posted...

averagejoel posted...

cool. ABA is abusive regardless of which behaviours they target

Right, modifying behavior to be less harmful is abuse. Gotchya.

don't do this. it's disingenuous. you usually have a good track record for being reasonable. read the link i posted. educate yourself

No, I understand the methodologies. It's not abuse, you just see it as attacking your identity.

Further, you should really calm down on your criticism of ECT. It's really effective on several types of disorders, probably because of the influx of BDNF after changing the properties of the blood brain barrier.

The evidence regarding success rates of ABA is skewed. the autistic individual is not usually interviewed at the end of the treatment, the neurotypical parents are. So, a parent that can't stand their autistic kid can say "much improvement! They don't stim or embarrass me anymore!" Though the autistic child is suffering at higher rates from anxiety and often times PTSD.

it's solely related to how traumatized a kid can be into acting neurotypical

autistic people generally know that ABA is harmful. you should try listening to them directly instead of the people who put them through it
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C7D posted...

averagejoel posted...

C7D posted...

Is it better to leave them locked in a padded room or to let them kill themselves? Honest question...

false dichotomy. there are ways to help autistic people that do not involve leaving them "locked in a padded room"

Not in the people that are receiving this therapy... Its a last ditch effort after everything else has been tried. When the brain is undergoing catatonia, the kid doesnt even know they are hurting themselves. The brains electrical signals are messed up. These people are fixing them.

they're not being fixed. read the thing i linked up there ^
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averagejoel posted...

C7D posted...

averagejoel posted...

C7D posted...

Is it better to leave them locked in a padded room or to let them kill themselves? Honest question...

false dichotomy. there are ways to help autistic people that do not involve leaving them "locked in a padded room"

Not in the people that are receiving this therapy... Its a last ditch effort after everything else has been tried. When the brain is undergoing catatonia, the kid doesnt even know they are hurting themselves. The brains electrical signals are messed up. These people are fixing them.

they're not being fixed. read the thing i linked up there ^

I read it. The author clearly lacks the prerequisite knowledge to know what she is talking about. She was not nor is she currently an expert on autism. She freely admits this in the blog. My wife was once a leader for a national autism advocacy group. She used some, not all of the techniques discussed in the article herself to make life livable for our son. He no longer hurts himself of others and talks when neurologists said he never would speak. The bigger trick now is getting him to stop. Some, most all of this stuff works as it is intended to. Sit down.
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C7D posted...

averagejoel posted...

C7D posted...

averagejoel posted...

C7D posted...

Is it better to leave them locked in a padded room or to let them kill themselves? Honest question...

false dichotomy. there are ways to help autistic people that do not involve leaving them "locked in a padded room"

Not in the people that are receiving this therapy... Its a last ditch effort after everything else has been tried. When the brain is undergoing catatonia, the kid doesnt even know they are hurting themselves. The brains electrical signals are messed up. These people are fixing them.

they're not being fixed. read the thing i linked up there ^

I read it. The author clearly lacks the prerequisite knowledge to know what she is talking about. She was not nor is she currently an expert on autism. She freely admits this in the blog. My wife was once a leader for a national autism advocacy group. She used some, not all of the techniques discussed in the article herself to make life livable for our son. He no longer hurts himself of others and talks when neurologists said he never would speak. The bigger trick now is getting him to stop. Some, most all of this stuff works as it is intended to. Sit down.

was it an actual autism advocacy group, or was it Autism Speaks? because they are famously bad
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averagejoel posted...

C7D posted...

averagejoel posted...

C7D posted...

averagejoel posted...

C7D posted...

Is it better to leave them locked in a padded room or to let them kill themselves? Honest question...

false dichotomy. there are ways to help autistic people that do not involve leaving them "locked in a padded room"

Not in the people that are receiving this therapy... Its a last ditch effort after everything else has been tried. When the brain is undergoing catatonia, the kid doesnt even know they are hurting themselves. The brains electrical signals are messed up. These people are fixing them.

they're not being fixed. read the thing i linked up there ^

I read it. The author clearly lacks the prerequisite knowledge to know what she is talking about. She was not nor is she currently an expert on autism. She freely admits this in the blog. My wife was once a leader for a national autism advocacy group. She used some, not all of the techniques discussed in the article herself to make life livable for our son. He no longer hurts himself of others and talks when neurologists said he never would speak. The bigger trick now is getting him to stop. Some, most all of this stuff works as it is intended to. Sit down.

was it an actual autism advocacy group, or was it Autism Speaks? because they are famously bad

She has held leadership positions both with Autism Speaks and National Autism Association though she is no longer active in either.
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C7D posted...

averagejoel posted...

C7D posted...

averagejoel posted...

C7D posted...

averagejoel posted...

C7D posted...

Is it better to leave them locked in a padded room or to let them kill themselves? Honest question...

false dichotomy. there are ways to help autistic people that do not involve leaving them "locked in a padded room"

Not in the people that are receiving this therapy... Its a last ditch effort after everything else has been tried. When the brain is undergoing catatonia, the kid doesnt even know they are hurting themselves. The brains electrical signals are messed up. These people are fixing them.

they're not being fixed. read the thing i linked up there ^

I read it. The author clearly lacks the prerequisite knowledge to know what she is talking about. She was not nor is she currently an expert on autism. She freely admits this in the blog. My wife was once a leader for a national autism advocacy group. She used some, not all of the techniques discussed in the article herself to make life livable for our son. He no longer hurts himself of others and talks when neurologists said he never would speak. The bigger trick now is getting him to stop. Some, most all of this stuff works as it is intended to. Sit down.

was it an actual autism advocacy group, or was it Autism Speaks? because they are famously bad

She has held leadership positions both with Autism Speaks and National Autism Association though she is no longer active in either.

yeah I'm not sure about NAA, but Autism Speaks is a shitty organization that doesn't actually do anything to help autistic people
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averagejoel posted...

Autism Speaks is a shitty organization that doesn't actually do anything to help autistic people

You only say this because they advocate for the treatment of autism as a disorder, which it is, rather than uncritical acceptance.
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COVxy posted...

averagejoel posted...

Autism Speaks is a shitty organization that doesn't actually do anything to help autistic people

You only say this because they advocate for the treatment of autism as a disorder, which it is, rather than uncritical acceptance.

that's far from the only reason
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averagejoel posted...

that's far from the only reason

It's literally the only criticism I've seen of the organization. And it's not like a lot of it doesn't fly past my newsfeed. The primary focus of the criticism is the ostrasizing nature of being labeled disordered in need of treatment.

My guess, though, is that the large majority of this criticism comes from people who have put themselves on the spectrum or ran away with a statement like "you're a bit above average in autism like behaviors", rather than people who have legitimate experience with the disorder to begin with.
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COVxy posted...

averagejoel posted...

that's far from the only reason

It's literally the only criticism I've seen of the organization. And it's not like a lot of it doesn't fly past my newsfeed. The primary focus of the criticism is the ostrasizing nature of being labeled disordered in need of treatment.

My guess, though, is that the large majority of this criticism comes from people who have put themselves on the spectrum or ran away with a statement like "you're a bit above average in autism like behaviors", rather than people who have legitimate experience with the disorder to begin with.

you should try listening to autistic people. you might learn something
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Agreed. When I want to learn about a mental "disorder" I only listen to people with that mental "disorder." Disorder is just a social construct and doesn't exist.
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