Current Events > Why has Sonic had such a hard transition from 2D to 3D?

(+) Yeah! (+)

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he didn't know da way xD
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because lots of series transitioned to 3D at the time since that was the new tech even if that means the game developers didn't really have a lot of time to think about how that would actually play out.

the worst example of "we have to do this in 3D" would be Bubsy.
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They seem to sell well regardless of how good or bad they are, so maybe it's a case where the devs never really had incentive to produce good games.

When you gonna close that account tho
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Because the core mechanics that Sonic was based on don't transition to 3D.
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s0nicfan posted...

Because the core mechanics that Sonic was based on don't transition to 3D.

Yes they do.

The developers just didn't have a good vision on what they were trying to accomplish.

Take a look at this game for an example of high speed 3D platforming:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qO0Pk1fy3Xo
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fenderbender321 posted...

When looking at games like Sonic Forces, I feel like they have the right idea, but I wonder if it just takes too much to build 3d Sonic levels since they'd have to be so huge to account for how fast Sonic runs, as opposed to 3d Mario games where the levels aren't that big (such as Odyssey).

they outright said as much when Unleashed came out, the Nighttime levels existed because Daytime levels took too long to make for how long they lasted

mario2000 posted...

he didn't know da way xD

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Close your account

fenderbender321 posted...

Never played it, but I heard Sonic Colors was a good game...?

no it was just the most not shit game at the time.
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Here's a better question:

Why has TC not closed his account?
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Sega tried too hard. Rather than make a fantasy game they tried too hard to make it real and edgy. They put more emphasis on that than gameplay and gameplay overall suffered because Sega kept forcing stupid time limits on Sonic Team.
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Because Sonic 2D had an incredible balance of speed and platforming.

Sonic 3D cant find that balance because if they have speed the level is just a long rail where you dont do anything except go fast and bounce off things and if they focus on platforming it feels like Sonic is going too slow and not truly Sonic.

Why are games only considered legit if theyre 3D? Sonic Mania is one of the Games Of The Year.
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I feel like Sonic Team spends a lot of times chasing the latest trends. and often fails to grasp the short-comings of the technology available. They also seem to create new characters without having a firm idea of why that character should exist. The Adventure games are decent, but they're not particularly different from "early generic 3D platformer". Arguably, the problems games of that era had in terms of camera were only exacerbated by the fact that Sonic games are fast, and the engine does really weird things sometimes.

He didn't. The transition was great. Adventure 1 was a fine game, and Adventure 2 was at least decent.

It's just that they fell flat on their face immeditaely after that.
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The Adventure series sucked. The canceled sonic xtreme looked more like how a 3d sonic game should have been. Not open world with whacked out physics.
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DevsBro posted...

He didn't. The transition was great. Adventure 1 was a fine game, and Adventure 2 was at least decent.

It's just that they fell flat on their face immeditaely after that.

SA2 Battle was the last Sonic game I had fun playing.

Why has Sonic had such a hard transition from 2D to 3D?

Because Sonic Adventure wasn't a Sonic game. I don't know what kind of deranged nuttery went into making that game, but it butchered the series pretty much beyond repair, and that was the benchmark for Sonic in 3D, it set the mold, it was the guiding light for future games.

There was almost no actual gameplay coherence between Sonic Adventure and the classic Sonic games. It's not because 2D Sonic gameplay is just some elusive concept that can't work in 3D. They just straight up didn't care about what made Sonic, Sonic, or they forgot; if they didn't forget, people did eventually forget. So many times I saw talks of how "THIS game will be what revives Sonic and brings him back to his roots: speed. Sonic was all about speed!" and no, he wasn't.

Classic Sonic is not a "hold a button and go through elaborate set pieces" game. It's not a furry soap opera. It's not a 13 year old edgelord's wet dream. It's not a beat 'em up. Classic Sonic was a platforming game. With an extremely strong emphasis on physics and momentum influencing gameplay and how the player controls the character and interacts with the world, and design focus on making a lower number of total levels but existing in much more detailed, fleshed out realised worlds, a strong soundtrack, and climatic boss battles, especially a finale, as well as branching paths and intertwining level layers.

Sonic Adventure took a massive dump on nearly everything that made Sonic, Sonic, and future Sonic games made after that took after Sonic Adventure instead of real Sonic games, and set the standard and model for what a Sonic game should be. And then various 2D games were made that didn't understand what a Sonic game was but thought they did so they just made it a "go really fast to the right for awhile and occasionally crash into a dumb obstacle" game and then the 3D games threw up their hands and were like "okay so you're saying the problem is being 3D?" and then made a bunch of 2D gameplay in 3D games that played nothing like classic Sonic so surprise it didn't save the series.

No one should be allowed to make a 3D Sonic game without being made to play through Sonic The Hedgehog, Sonic 2, 3 & Knuckles while someone points at the screen and says, "That. That is a Sonic game. Observe and understand"

Because it's really hard to get ideas in your head like "Sonic is about big set pieces and going fast with little to no player control" while you navigate Marble Zone. Or Spring Yard Zone. Or Labyrinth Zone. Or Scrap Brain Zone. Oh wow I just listed 4 out of 6 zones in the first game, and Green Hill Zone is only capable of being somewhat speedy in places because it's just the first area and is easy in general, rushing or otherwise. And this kind of balance stayed in the later 2D games. Like if you actually go through those games and pay attention to how often the level design actually basically forces you along speedy set pieces, you may be shocked to see how sparse it really is. Yet some 3D Sonic games are designed like someone played Chemical Plant Zone, and said "I really liked 35% of this zone, I'm going to assume the entire series is all about that"

Also fuck the homing attack. One of the single worst things to come out of 3D Sonics. It dumbs down the gameplay horribly bad and shits all over notions of consistent physics/momentum. Oh wow I shot up into the air and there's several hovering enemies in front of me, better mash A to use them to get across, HOW NOVEL I can't wait for every Sonic game to do this over and over and over again because pressing a button is technically gameplay so woo.

Like yeah I get it the flame barrier shield in Sonic 3 had a cool WHOOUGSH move for Sonic but it was cool because of the momentum implications of rushing forward so fast; making it a baseline Sonic ability that homes in kills that.
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instead of making a 3d sonic game, they made a fucking tech demo starring sonic and friends
they mistakenly thought that people played it for the shitty side modes and not for the actual sonic-like parts, so they kept doing that shit in every game since
they don't make a genuine effort to put the series into 3d, they just make hackjob platformers with strange mechanics and with sonic characters in them, regardless of the bad tonal or gameplay dissonance that tends to result in unfavorable or bad games
they don't even fucking try with level design, opting to make insanely long marathon levels that repeat over and over and never have any meaningful player interaction, fun mechanics that utilize and give access to speed, or even good use of three-dimensional space since everything is a goddamn fucking corridor (with sa1, the first attempt at putting the series in 3d, the only game that even tries at all to have memorable setpiece and layout variety)

The main reason it's been so hard is because Sonic Team has almost always shoehorned unnecessary gimmicks and mechanics into the 3D games. They've also proven to be unable to accurately translate the 2D gameplay of the classics into 3D, relying on a ton of automation and scripted sequences.
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electricbugs2 posted...

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Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 are excellent games
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Damn_Underscore posted...

Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 are excellent games

Theyve aged terribly. Believe me I love Sonic, but theyre almost unplayable in 2018. As a kid it was OMG NEW SONIC OMG 3D SONIC, but now its Am I this big of a Sonic fan that this is okay?
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They are just as great as they ever were

Aside from having great music and levels, they are actually fun to play unlike the "Boost Gameplay" 3D Sonic games
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I have fun with SA1 and 2 but would love to see Tmk's vision of 3D Sonic happen.

Dunno, I loved Secret Rings *shrug*
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzvS_beXtXk

look at this. that had potential to be a great formula for 3D sonic. it also marked the beginning of Sega and Sonic Team being at odds with deadlines and production....and they still haven't gotten their shit together to this day...
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Because at its core 2D Sonic wasn't good to begin with.

You can't have momentum based movement with level design that actively impedes it and a camera so close that I can see sonic's nipples.

Take that and add another dimension and everything gets fucked.
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ZMythos posted...

Because at its core 2D Sonic wasn't good to begin with.

You can't have momentum based movement with level design that actively impedes it and a camera so close that I can see sonic's nipples

You just suck at the game, mate.
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Scotty_Rogers posted...

You just suck at the game, mate.

When your game can be summarized as "bubsy but slower," it's not the player that sucks, m8
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ZMythos posted...

Because at its core 2D Sonic wasn't good to begin with.

You can't have momentum based movement with level design that actively impedes it and a camera so close that I can see sonic's nipples.

They addressed it some after the first game but it was still never great.

The first one was a mess. It worked at times, against all odds, but it was still a mess.
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ZMythos posted...

Because at its core 2D Sonic wasn't good to begin with.

True, but that's beside the point that ZP needs to close his account.
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I really like Sonic Adventure 1. Back in late 1999, Windy Valley made me pucker.
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ZMythos posted...

Because at its core 2D Sonic wasn't good to begin with.

LMAO at this revisionist history

It's "cool" to think 2D Sonic games and the Sonic Adventure games were never good
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sa1 was flawed but admirably ambitious
sa2 was just worse in every way and was mostly popular with the gamecube kiddies and mindless critics who were still won over by the appearance of their childhood hero sonic in 3d

It's amazing how people still don't know how to play 2D Sonic games.

Run, jump, explore, experiment, and master

they forgot that sonic wasnt about going 20000000 mph at all times and was actually speed broken up by fun platforming
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