Current Events > Being anti-Muslim isn't any different than being racist.

(+) Yeah! (+)

What is racism? It's the power to delineate and exclude certain groups of human beings... and it's intimately tied with the power to discriminate.

First of all, "races" aren't a thing. They don't exist. The idea of biological races is archaic pseudoscience. Here's a piece by Dr. Jefferson Fish, a Professor Emiritus with 12 books on the subject, on why races don't actually exist:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/looking-in-the-cultural-mirror/201109/the-main-reason-races-don-t-exist

So what is "race?" It's a social construct. Who constructs it and why? People in power do, in order to delineate and include/exclude people. What do I mean by including/excluding? I mean including/excluding people from the rights and protections the state purportedly ensures for everyone, equally.

"Oh, but I advocate for equal rights." Well, of course you do. The question is the long list of exceptions, all of the "buts"...

"All people are equal, but some are more equal than others" -- Some people can be shot extrajudicially, excluded physically, left to die, expelled...

"I'm not a racist, I have many Black friends" -- Do you want Blacks on the whole to have the same status in society as everyone else?

"Islamophobia isn't racism because Muslims aren't a race" -- Do you advocate excluding Muslims from our country, denying them a voice, and treating them as a threat?

Races don't exist (except as a social construct). Racism is about the power to impose this social construct and all its legal ramifications.

Lol
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Another user who doesn't know the difference between when people criticize Islam and when people criticize Muslims.
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On_The_Edge posted...

Lol

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Glass_Phantom posted...

What is racism? It's the power to delineate and exclude certain groups of human beings

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPD5q6DC43M
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Glass_Phantom posted...

What is racism? It's the power to delineate and exclude certain groups of human beings... and it's intimately tied with the power to discriminate.

It's funny how this weird definition of racism is used only by people who in using it make themselves immune to claims that they're racist against white people, when by the commonly held definition of racism, they would clearly be guilty of exactly that.

NibeIungsnarf posted...

It's funny how this weird definition of racism is used only by people who in using it make themselves immune to claims that they're racist against white people, when by the commonly held definition of racism, they would clearly be guilty of exactly that.

I don't think I even mentioned white people, did I?

I don't think I said you did, did I?

Glass_Phantom posted...

I don't think I even mentioned white people, did I?

I'd say it was heavily implied given the general theme of your topic.
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It's really dumb how people attack individuals then fall back on the "Islam is an idea" excuse, yeah.

pinky0926 posted...

Glass_Phantom posted...

I don't think I even mentioned white people, did I?

I'd say it was heavily implied given the general theme of your topic.

What theme is that? ;)

Glass_Phantom posted...

pinky0926 posted...

Glass_Phantom posted...

I don't think I even mentioned white people, did I?

I'd say it was heavily implied given the general theme of your topic.

What theme is that? ;)

Race trolling
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Whenever white people don't agree with the action none white people take (Muslims/judes/blacks or whatever). They always pull the racist card. It's so easy to do.
But at one point it wont work anymore. It's like the boy who cried wollf one to many times.

The Admiral posted...

Race trolling

Quite the ironic allegation!

but i'm not anti-muslim

i'm anti-islam
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Glass_Phantom posted...

The Admiral posted...

Race trolling

Quite the ironic allegation!

Add irony to the list of things you apparently don't understand.

GOATTHlEF posted...

Because we all know that there is no difference to people like you. You act like there is, but when it comes down to it you'll treat them the same and just lie about it later.

Your inability to think beyond an emotional level is not my problem.
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By that logic hating the kkk is the same as being racist.

Look, some ideologies just don't deserve a place in modern society until they get their shit together.
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YuriSakazaki0 posted...

but i'm not anti-muslim

i'm anti-islam

Yeah, I don't even know what anti-muslim...ism is.

People are anti-Islam, not anti-muslim. Actual bigots excluded, obviously.

Glass_Phantom posted...

What theme is that? ;)

That "people in power" (read: white people) do everything wrong and hold all the cards, whereas oppressed people (in this case: Muslims) are just trying to get by and are misunderstood.

Basically that you can't criticise Islam, because some people veil their racism as criticism of Islam. The logic doesn't follow.
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YuriSakazaki0 posted...

but i'm not anti-muslim

i'm anti-islam

I would question how much you really know about Islam, but that's beside the point.

Do you think we should 1. prevent Muslim refugees from entering our country, and 2. reduce legal immigration for people who believe in Islam?

Those are the tells.

Glass_Phantom posted...

I would question how much you really know about Islam, but that's beside the point.

This is the perfect rhetorical argument really, you see it a lot. If someone's view happens to not align with your own you can just say they don't know enough about the topic. If it does you can assume they must be a scholar.

"I don't like radiohead"
"Ah well you probably just don't know much about music"

See how annoying that is?

Do you think we should 1. prevent Muslim refugees from entering our country, and 2. reduce legal immigration for people who believe in Islam?

Those are the tells.

I'm not wholly against Muslim refugees entering my country, and unlike you I live in a country with a very significant Muslim population and I'm largely ok with it. The difference is that I think none of this precludes criticism of religious practise.

Kind of like how I get on with most Christians even though I think the Bible is garbage.

Islam kind of has the added complication of having a lot more fundamentalist vibes which are very much antithetical to everything I believe in, though. So it depends what those Muslims do upon entry.
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Being pro-muslim is enabling the terrorist behavior though, which is racist.
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Being pro-Muslim is legitimately worse than being 'racist'.
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Being anti-Muslim isn't any different than being racist.

Yes it is. African Americans don't fly planes into buildings or blow up children at a concert.

/topic.
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I guess i'm a racist because I don't support christianity. I'm racist against the christian race.
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The childish posts aside, it is always good to question a culture, faith, etc. if something in it is being used to hurt another group of people which if people keep up with international affairs would know. I feel that sometimes the Mods on this site forget about that, and target the wrong users (I mean I don't blame them because it's hard to tell with some users on here).

But if you're hating for the sake of hating without bringing up any legitimate points..well your post is probably mod worthy because we don't want boards like Politics and CE to become toxic with that mentality.
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kenio8185 posted...

Glass_Phantom posted...

Races don't exist (except as a social construct). Racism is about the power to impose this social construct and all its legal ramifications.

So by this definition, intersectionalality is racist?

Well, it is, because it's another liberal construct meant to attack white people purely for the color of their skin.
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Being anti-Muslim isn't racist, but the two tend to go hand in hand.

pinky0926 posted...

I'm not wholly against Muslim refugees entering my country, and unlike you I live in a country with a very significant Muslim population and I'm largely ok with it. The difference is that I think none of this precludes criticism of religious practise.

Kind of like how I get on with most Christians even though I think the Bible is garbage.

Islam kind of has the added complication of having a lot more fundamentalist vibes which are very much antithetical to everything I believe in, though. So it depends what those Muslims do upon entry.

Well there's an added problem that criticizing Islam provides a legitimate cover for actual bigots/racists/call it what you want. I definitely agree, ideologies and religions need to be criticized, but the criticism needs to be in the proper forum, for the proper reason. And well, America in particular (but also Europe) are very, very, very bad at talking about race. And in this case, race is definitely a part of the discussion.

So all in all it's just a very complicated problem and a lot of people like to pretend that it's quite simple.
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scar the 1 posted...

Well there's an added problem that criticizing Islam provides a legitimate cover for actual bigots/racists/call it what you want. I definitely agree, ideologies and religions need to be criticized, but the criticism needs to be in the proper forum, for the proper reason. And well, America in particular (but also Europe) are very, very, very bad at talking about race. And in this case, race is definitely a part of the discussion.

So all in all it's just a very complicated problem and a lot of people like to pretend that it's quite simple.

That does go both ways obviously. On one side you get those people who are basically just suspicious of Arabic looking people, and then on the other side you get people like the TC who are trying to create an environment where any criticism of Islam or what Muslims do is considered racist, and therefore instantly dismissed as small-minded bigotry.
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I bet TC is ok with being anti christian

I love the argument that race/gender are social constructs, when race/gender can be determined by viewing someone's bone structure.
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Ryo_the_Inferno posted...

I love the argument that race/gender are social constructs, when race/gender can be determined by viewing someone's bone structure.

I mean this just isn't true.
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pinky0926 posted...

scar the 1 posted...

Well there's an added problem that criticizing Islam provides a legitimate cover for actual bigots/racists/call it what you want. I definitely agree, ideologies and religions need to be criticized, but the criticism needs to be in the proper forum, for the proper reason. And well, America in particular (but also Europe) are very, very, very bad at talking about race. And in this case, race is definitely a part of the discussion.

So all in all it's just a very complicated problem and a lot of people like to pretend that it's quite simple.

That does go both ways obviously. On one side you get those people who are basically just suspicious of Arabic looking people, and then on the other side you get people like the TC who are trying to create an environment where any criticism of Islam or what Muslims do is considered racist, and therefore instantly dismissed as small-minded bigotry.

I don't know much about the legitimacy of TC's person, but his OP isn't really indicative of what you speak of. A lot of Islamophobia is thinly veiled racism.
Besides that, I think there's a lot to be said about how people want to actually address the problems they find with an ideology (in this case Islam). What I see from a lot of people is essentially "Fuck off, go back to where you came from, your kind has no place here", which I don't think is much of a solution at all. It's just trying to sweep it under somebody else's rug.
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pinky0926 posted...

Ryo_the_Inferno posted...

I love the argument that race/gender are social constructs, when race/gender can be determined by viewing someone's bone structure.

I mean this just isn't true.

It partially is - men and women have very different hip bones. I don't think the race thing is true, though.
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pinky0926 posted...

Ryo_the_Inferno posted...

I love the argument that race/gender are social constructs, when race/gender can be determined by viewing someone's bone structure.

I mean this just isn't true.

you telling me the tv show Bones is lying? the main character almost every episode can tell what gender and race the victim is by looking at the remains

scar the 1 posted...

I don't know much about the legitimacy of TC's person, but his OP isn't really indicative of what you speak of. A lot of Islamophobia is thinly veiled racism.
Besides that, I think there's a lot to be said about how people want to actually address the problems they find with an ideology (in this case Islam). What I see from a lot of people is essentially "Fuck off, go back to where you came from, your kind has no place here", which I don't think is much of a solution at all. It's just trying to sweep it under somebody else's rug.

Sure, but I think as soon as you stop drawing a distinction between race and a religious group you're essentially inviting the term "Islamophobia" to refer to anyone who makes any sort of criticism at all. I'm not strawmanning here - you see that term get thrown around in any conversation that is critical of Islamic practises or customs or deeds. It's another problem, and why I don't like the term "Islamophobia" at all.

I level this same kind of thinking towards Hasidic Jews, who seem above criticism despite their wholly medieval social attitudes.
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darkjedilink posted...

It partially is - men and women have very different hip bones. I don't think the race thing is true, though.

Sex and gender are not the same thing though. Sex is a biological distinction. Gender is a loose way of attempting to categorise people as they appear and behave.

Race has a similar problem, because scientists generally feel that trying to pidgeonhole the enormously large wealth of genetic diversity into just a few blurry categories is unhelpful. This is why people say it's a social construct, because being "black" has far more social meaning than biological meaning.

I think this is why the whole gender debate is getting out of hand, becuase some people just keep adding more categories whereas others want to do away with categories altogether, and then even more ask "well what is even the point of categories in the first place if we can't use them".
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pinky0926 posted...

Race has a similar problem, because scientists generally feel that trying to pidgeonhole the enormously large wealth of genetic diversity into just a few blurry categories is unhelpful. This is why people say it's a social construct, because being "black" has far more social meaning than biological meaning.

It is also important to add that there is pretty much no such thing as a 'pure' race.

The difference is that it is wrong to be anti something someone can't control, like their race or their sex

But it is not the same to be against something that is a choice or a belief. Something they actively choose to demonstrate.

If someone says "Behead those who insult our prophet"

And then someone says "That's horrible! Youre disgusting!"

Your reaction should not be "Oh you're just as bad as a racist who wants to enslave Chinese people!" that's literal nonsense
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Zikten posted...

you telling me the tv show Bones is lying? the main character almost every episode can tell what gender and race the victim is by looking at the remains

The problem is more that the categories themselves are the inexact science. You can figure out what the person would look like and where their ancestry might have originated and so on, but then you have to say "well this makes them a black person", and that "black" category is woolly at best.
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UnfairRepresent posted...

The difference is that it is wrong to be anti something someone can't control, like their race or their sex

But it is not the same to be against something that is a choice or a belief. Something they actively choose to demonstrate.

This is an interesting point, because it leads to the debate of "what can you control?". A lot of a person's ideology is formed by where they grew up. Americans will have much more liberal views on a lot of issues than Chinese not because they choose to, but because that's what they know. Heck, just look at Republican and Democrat populations in the US. It's often very tribal! This goes for religious conviction as well. It's not something that anyone can just pick and choose, because their lives are already shaped. Indoctrination happens all over the world.
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the key difference is that black people as a whole have done nothing wrong, but muslims as a whole discriminate against women, treat them as the property of men and not deserving of rights, execute gay people for being gay, protest to have sharia law implemented world wide, etc etc
Glass_Phantom posted...

Races don't exist (except as a social construct)

you're an absolute clown and you should shut the fuck up
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scar the 1 posted...

This is an interesting point, because it leads to the debate of "what can you control?". A lot of a person's ideology is formed by where they grew up. Americans will have much more liberal views on a lot of issues than Chinese not because they choose to, but because that's what they know. Heck, just look at Republican and Democrat populations in the US. It's often very tribal! This goes for religious conviction as well. It's not something that anyone can just pick and choose, because their lives are already shaped. Indoctrination happens all over the world.

That is a good point, but eventually you have to ask at what point do you stop forgiving someone for the things they were programmed to do and start not tolerating it?

I think basically that point is: any time you are faced with the decision that you might have to compromise your own ethical standards to accommodate someone else's.
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scar the 1 posted...

This is an interesting point, because it leads to the debate of "what can you control?"

That's not an interesting debate at all.

You can leave Islam any time you want, you can't leave your body and become a mongoose any time you want.

Its black and white
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UnfairRepresent posted...

scar the 1 posted...

This is an interesting point, because it leads to the debate of "what can you control?"

That's not an interesting debate at all.

You can leave Islam any time you want, you can't leave your body and become a mongoose any time you want.

Its black and white

Make no mistake, I did respond to your post.

But it wasn't a response intended for you.

pinky0926 posted...

That is a good point, but eventually you have to ask at what point do you stop forgiving someone for the things they were programmed to do and start not tolerating it?

I think basically that point is: any time you are faced with the decision that you might have to compromise your own ethical standards to accommodate someone else's.

Yeah, but this touches on questions of privilege; Do we know their experience well enough to realize the demands we're putting on them? And, if we don't, is there a way we can put the same demands on them in a more reasonable fashion? Etc
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