Current Events > What is the main reason people dislike GoT s07 ep06?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Genuine question.

Because Benjen showed up? Because Tormund didn't die? I mean it wasn't perfect - like how they didn't establish the randoms traveling with them who kept dying randomly. But people act like it's the worst episode of the series and the show has jumped the shark.

Remember when people were like "This show is too slow, it's been like 17 seasons and Dany still hasn't gotten to Westeros."? Now they're like "Why didn't a title card come up saying two weeks later? Why didn't they show some pointless travel scenes? I complained in season 5 about filler but now I want more. MORE I SAY."
---

Because it used to be House of Cards meets Lord of the Rings, now it's fantasy Transformers.
---

I didn't dislike it, but it definitely seemed like a lazy bit of plot reverse engineering just so they could get an ice dragon.

scar the 1 posted...

Because it used to be House of Cards meets Lord of the Rings, now it's fantasy Transformers.

What are you basing that on? Can you be more specific?
---

fast travel, too much fan service with the walking around (which ended up taking the one kid, what like 5 minutes to backtrack, and random people just seemed to show up out of nowhere), overall predictable
---

scar the 1 posted...

Because it used to be House of Cards meets Lord of the Rings, now it's fantasy Transformers.

Yup.

Robb died because he wanted a bridge, now we have Daenyrus YAS QUEEN SLAY riding around on a cgi dragon and nobody is dying because all the main characters gained Daryl from the Walking Dead plot armor.

clearaflagrantj posted...

scar the 1 posted...

Because it used to be House of Cards meets Lord of the Rings, now it's fantasy Transformers.

Yup.

Robb died because he wanted a bridge, now we have Daenyrus YAS QUEEN SLAY riding around on a cgi dragon and nobody is dying because all the main characters gained Daryl from the Walking Dead plot armor.

Here's what I don't understand about this complaint though.

The first scene of season 1 is about White Walkers. The dragons are build up from season 1 even before they actually hatch. It was very clearly established that this would be a big part of the story. So what exactly is the issue? In your opinion how should the show be handling this particular aspect/conflict of the story?
---

Stalolin posted...

clearaflagrantj posted...

scar the 1 posted...

Because it used to be House of Cards meets Lord of the Rings, now it's fantasy Transformers.

Yup.

Robb died because he wanted a bridge, now we have Daenyrus YAS QUEEN SLAY riding around on a cgi dragon and nobody is dying because all the main characters gained Daryl from the Walking Dead plot armor.

Here's what I don't understand about this complaint though.

The first scene of season 1 is about White Walkers. The dragons are build up from season 1 even before they actually hatch. It was very clearly established that this would be a big part of the story. So what exactly is the issue? In your opinion how should the show be handling this particular aspect/conflict of the story?

People need to die

What we some kind of a suicide squad Jon?
---

The timing is what bothered me. Gendry is the fucking Flash, ravens can teleport, and dragons fly at mach speeds. All before some ice froze in the middle of the coldest place in the world.
---

Show has been reduced to the level where you have to just watch it and enjoy the action, without thinking about anything.
Otherwise so many things are going to annoy you.

clearaflagrantj posted...

Stalolin posted...

clearaflagrantj posted...

scar the 1 posted...

Because it used to be House of Cards meets Lord of the Rings, now it's fantasy Transformers.

Yup.

Robb died because he wanted a bridge, now we have Daenyrus YAS QUEEN SLAY riding around on a cgi dragon and nobody is dying because all the main characters gained Daryl from the Walking Dead plot armor.

Here's what I don't understand about this complaint though.

The first scene of season 1 is about White Walkers. The dragons are build up from season 1 even before they actually hatch. It was very clearly established that this would be a big part of the story. So what exactly is the issue? In your opinion how should the show be handling this particular aspect/conflict of the story?

People need to die

Why? What specific purpose would that serve in this instance?
---

It's just really fucking stupid if you put any amount of thought into what happened.

Like, the Night King can apparently throw spears like javlin missiles, but he literally just watches the dude from across a small bond for days (or hours, who the fuck can tell with this goofy timescale) without chucking anything at them.

But wait, his plan was to lure Dany out there to get her dragon you say? They had to be alive for that to happen? Then why the fuck did he have his entire fucking horde swarm them the second he could?

Why did we have to have this ridiculous scene where Gendry ran days worth of blizzard terrain in hours to call for help when we could have just had Bran see them in need of help and use his powers to alert Dany?

Then you have the stuff that makes it even dumber after episode 7? Why did Beric and Tormund have to live through that horde rush if they were just going to possibly die offscreen when the wall fell?

Shit was dumb
---

The Dragon has three heads, but the show threw away the fake Aegon plot entirely so we're all really pissed off about that.

Euron is supposed to be a scary and powerful character but in the show he's just a complete dumbass. No Valyerian Steel armor, he doesn't have the Horn of Winter which is totally what's supposed to break the wall. Season 7 did a lot of garbage things, but the fast travel in episode 6 is particularly a problem because George RR Martin is a writer that has avoided Dues Ex Machina moments and the show writers don't know what they're doing
---

AlecSkorpio posted...

It's just really fucking stupid if you put any amount of thought into what happened.

Like, the Night King can apparently throw spears like javlin missiles, but he literally just watches the dude from across a small bond for days without chucking anything at them.

But wait, his plan was to lure Dany out there to get her dragon you say? They had to be alive for that to happen? Then why the fuck did he have his entire fucking horde swarm them the second he could?

Why did we have to have this ridiculous scene where Gendry ran days worth of blizzard terrain in hours to call for help when we could have just had Bran see them in need of help and use his powers to alert Dany?

Then you have the stuff that makes it even dumber after episode 7? Why did Beric and Tormund have to live through that horde rush if they were just going to possibly die offscreen when the wall fell?

Shit was dumb

1) Because there'd be nothing stopping them from just dipping out and not needing rescue? Haha. Can't steal a dragon if he doesn't need to show up.

2) Has it been established that Bran even knew where they were or what they were doing? He's not omnipotent. Close though, I think?

3) I don't think they dead they weren't on the part of the wall that fell down? Who knows.
---

It was just a clear demonstration of the drop in writing quality this season.

Also, the people complaining about slowness in the beginning are most likely different people then those complaining now.
---

Stalolin posted...

2) Has it been established that Bran even knew where they were or what they were doing? He's not omnipotent. Close though, I think?

It has literally been established that Bran is specifically keeping tabs on the army of the dead in order to keep Jon and everyone else updated. It is far more reasonable to believe that he would have simply seen them in need of help during one of his many raven wargs than Gendry running and getting help like he did.

And I get that they wanted a big battle action sequence, but there were still better ways to do it. They're completely surrounded on that lake, but they could have simply made it so that even after the ice froze back over they still didn't attack, leaving Jon and them to wonder what the hell they are planning. Then maybe the dragons would roar as they approached, and THEN the NK would have his army to swarm to make it appear he's trying to get them before they can escape.

They set it up as like some big reveal that Dany showed up even though it was clear as fuck she was going to show up so there was no reason to have them battling in order to build tension on if she would show up or not.
---

Just nerds jumping on the hate bandwagon.
---

Perascamin posted...

Dues Ex Machina moments and the show writers don't know what they're doing

There haven't been any of those.

?

COVxy posted...

It was just a clear demonstration of the drop in writing quality this season.

Also, the people complaining about slowness in the beginning are most likely different people then those complaining now.

Fair point. But what do you mean about that first part? In what way was it a clear demonstration? Which part?
---

AlecSkorpio posted...

Stalolin posted...

2) Has it been established that Bran even knew where they were or what they were doing? He's not omnipotent. Close though, I think?

It has literally been established that Bran is specifically keeping tabs on the army of the dead in order to keep Jon and everyone else updated. It is far more reasonable to believe that he would have simply seen them in need of help during one of his many raven wargs than Gendry running and getting help like he did.

That's a good point.

But then I wonder, is it MORE or LESS believable that Bran would happen to be warging at that exact moment or seeing that exact part of the army? Just when they needed help. I think at one point he flies ravens near the Night King and he explodes them or something. OR is it better that the magnificent seven survive of their own accord? Through sending Gendry and him overcoming obstacles to help save them? Instead of just Bran sending a text to Dany somehow. People complain about coincidental timing but turn around and suggest that?
---

Stalolin posted...

AlecSkorpio posted...

Stalolin posted...

2) Has it been established that Bran even knew where they were or what they were doing? He's not omnipotent. Close though, I think?

It has literally been established that Bran is specifically keeping tabs on the army of the dead in order to keep Jon and everyone else updated. It is far more reasonable to believe that he would have simply seen them in need of help during one of his many raven wargs than Gendry running and getting help like he did.

That's a good point.

But then I wonder, is it MORE or LESS believable that Bran would happen to be warging at that exact moment or seeing that exact part of the army? Just when they needed help. I think at one point he flies ravens near the Night King and he explodes them or something. OR is it better that the magnificent seven survive of their own accord? Through sending Gendry and him overcoming obstacles to help save them? Instead of just Bran sending a text to Dany somehow. People complain about coincidental timing but turn around and suggest that?

I don't complain about coincidental timing because it's a TV show, I complain that Gendry being able to make that trek in that amount of time doesn't follow the logic that the show previously had.

Where as Bran coincidentally seeing they need help through his powers that the show already established would follow that logic.

See, if Gendry was established to have the Flashes powers, or teleportation, or something then I wouldn't be complaining about this.
---

AlecSkorpio posted...

And I get that they wanted a big battle action sequence, but there were still better ways to do it. They're completely surrounded on that lake, but they could have simply made it so that even after the ice froze back over they still didn't attack, leaving Jon and them to wonder what the hell they are planning.

Truuuue, I can dig that.
---

AlecSkorpio posted...

Stalolin posted...

AlecSkorpio posted...

Stalolin posted...

2) Has it been established that Bran even knew where they were or what they were doing? He's not omnipotent. Close though, I think?

It has literally been established that Bran is specifically keeping tabs on the army of the dead in order to keep Jon and everyone else updated. It is far more reasonable to believe that he would have simply seen them in need of help during one of his many raven wargs than Gendry running and getting help like he did.

That's a good point.

But then I wonder, is it MORE or LESS believable that Bran would happen to be warging at that exact moment or seeing that exact part of the army? Just when they needed help. I think at one point he flies ravens near the Night King and he explodes them or something. OR is it better that the magnificent seven survive of their own accord? Through sending Gendry and him overcoming obstacles to help save them? Instead of just Bran sending a text to Dany somehow. People complain about coincidental timing but turn around and suggest that?

I don't complain about coincidental timing because it's a TV show, I complain that Gendry being able to make that trek in that amount of time doesn't follow the logic that the show previously had.

I get the point you're trying to make but can you be more specific with this line of thought?

Also what amount of time? Does it say specifically?
---

AlecSkorpio posted...

See, if Gendry was established to have the Flashes powers, or teleportation, or something then I wouldn't be complaining about this.

Didn't you hear? He's the fastest runner.
---

Stalolin posted...

scar the 1 posted...

Because it used to be House of Cards meets Lord of the Rings, now it's fantasy Transformers.

What are you basing that on? Can you be more specific?

I'm basing that on the latest couple of seasons vs the first couple of seasons. They were more about political intrigue and barely had any action in them at all. In fact, a lot of the battles happened off-screen. Now there's barely any political intrigue and the seasons are centered on "epic" battles, while the plot is just a means to that end.
---

scar the 1 posted...

Stalolin posted...

scar the 1 posted...

Because it used to be House of Cards meets Lord of the Rings, now it's fantasy Transformers.

What are you basing that on? Can you be more specific?

I'm basing that on the latest couple of seasons vs the first couple of seasons. They were more about political intrigue and barely had any action in them at all. In fact, a lot of the battles happened off-screen. Now there's barely any political intrigue and the seasons are centered on "epic" battles, while the plot is just a means to that end.

It's almost like the show is wrapping up.
---

Mernardi posted...

scar the 1 posted...

Stalolin posted...

scar the 1 posted...

Because it used to be House of Cards meets Lord of the Rings, now it's fantasy Transformers.

What are you basing that on? Can you be more specific?

I'm basing that on the latest couple of seasons vs the first couple of seasons. They were more about political intrigue and barely had any action in them at all. In fact, a lot of the battles happened off-screen. Now there's barely any political intrigue and the seasons are centered on "epic" battles, while the plot is just a means to that end.

It's almost like the show is wrapping up.

It's almost like you made a completely obvious, irrelevant statement.
---

Stalolin posted...

Fair point. But what do you mean about that first part?

The entire episode reeked of generating plot elements only to ensure one or two later plot points were possible, and this was then confirmed by the after episode interviews where they said as much. At best, this produces writing that feels non natural, at worst as it happened in this particular episode, it breaks logical consistency. These things just pull the viewer out of the experience, destroy any immersion. For me, it makes the viewing experience much less enjoyable.
---

scar the 1 posted...

Mernardi posted...

scar the 1 posted...

Stalolin posted...

scar the 1 posted...

Because it used to be House of Cards meets Lord of the Rings, now it's fantasy Transformers.

What are you basing that on? Can you be more specific?

I'm basing that on the latest couple of seasons vs the first couple of seasons. They were more about political intrigue and barely had any action in them at all. In fact, a lot of the battles happened off-screen. Now there's barely any political intrigue and the seasons are centered on "epic" battles, while the plot is just a means to that end.

It's almost like the show is wrapping up.

It's almost like you made a completely obvious, irrelevant statement.

So how is a show where they're about to fight an undead army and try to overthrow the sitting Queen supposed to not have a lot of action? lol
---

I'm basing that on the latest couple of seasons vs the first couple of seasons. They were more about political intrigue and barely had any action in them at all. In fact, a lot of the battles happened off-screen. Now there's barely any political intrigue and the seasons are centered on "epic" battles, while the plot is just a means to that end.

I hear what you're saying (although I think the battles thing was largely a budget limitation). BUT to you I ask again what I asked some other dude a minute ago:

The first scene of season 1 is about White Walkers. The dragons are build up from season 1 even before they actually hatch. It was very clearly established that this would be a big part of the story. In your opinion how should the show be handling this particular aspect/conflict of the story?

Also with most of the major houses and players gone, where is the political intrigue left to rest? Which parts of the story could be doing more in regards to political intrigue? Legit question - like, should Cercei be facing more opposition IN King's Landing? More Sansa showing off what she's learned? Dany talking to Westerosi houses and gauging their support?
---

COVxy posted...

Stalolin posted...

Fair point. But what do you mean about that first part?

The entire episode reeked of generating plot elements only to ensure one or two later plot points were possible, and this was then confirmed by the after episode interviews where they said as much. At best, this produces writing that feels non natural, at worst as it happened in this particular episode, it breaks logical consistency. These things just pull the viewer out of the experience, destroy any immersion. For me, it makes the viewing experience much less enjoyable.

I see your point here - that's a fair criticism.
---

The timeline was intentionally ambiguous. This is what the director said.

“We’ve got Gendry running back, ravens flying a certain distance, dragons having to fly back a certain distance…In terms of the emotional experience, [Jon and company] sort of spent one dark night on the island in terms of storytelling moments. We tried to hedge it a little bit with the eternal twilight up there north of The Wall. I think there was some effort to fudge the timeline a little bit by not declaring exactly how long we were there. I think that worked for some people, for other people it didn’t. They seemed to be very concerned about how fast a raven can fly but there’s a thing called plausible impossibilities, which is what you try to achieve, rather than impossible plausibilities.”
---

DoctorVader posted...

The timeline was intentionally ambiguous. This is what the director said.

“We’ve got Gendry running back, ravens flying a certain distance, dragons having to fly back a certain distance…In terms of the emotional experience, [Jon and company] sort of spent one dark night on the island in terms of storytelling moments. We tried to hedge it a little bit with the eternal twilight up there north of The Wall. I think there was some effort to fudge the timeline a little bit by not declaring exactly how long we were there. I think that worked for some people, for other people it didn’t. They seemed to be very concerned about how fast a raven can fly but there’s a thing called plausible impossibilities, which is what you try to achieve, rather than impossible plausibilities.”

Hmmmmmm.
---

DoctorVader posted...

The timeline was intentionally ambiguous. This is what the director said.

More or less, they knew it was bullshit, purposefully didn't explicate the timeline, and hoped viewers wouldn't be observant enough to notice.
---

The series has been building up to this and people don't understand that there's no time to throw in some unpredictable bull crap. The show is still entertaining. Just the Internet being a bunch of babies as usual.
---

Stalolin posted...

I'm basing that on the latest couple of seasons vs the first couple of seasons. They were more about political intrigue and barely had any action in them at all. In fact, a lot of the battles happened off-screen. Now there's barely any political intrigue and the seasons are centered on "epic" battles, while the plot is just a means to that end.

I hear what you're saying (although I think the battles thing was largely a budget limitation). BUT to you I ask again what I asked some other dude a minute ago:

The first scene of season 1 is about White Walkers. The dragons are build up from season 1 even before they actually hatch. It was very clearly established that this would be a big part of the story. In your opinion how should the show be handling this particular aspect/conflict of the story?

Also with most of the major houses and players gone, where is the political intrigue left to rest? Which parts of the story could be doing more in regards to political intrigue? Legit question - like, should Cercei be facing more opposition IN King's Landing? More Sansa showing off what she's learned? Dany talking to Westerosi houses and gauging their support?

Fair questions.
I don't have a perfect answer to the first one - I'm not a writer. However, the show got popular not because of the fantasy elements (I believe), but because the plot was relatable. My impression is that a lot of people appreciated how characters were positioned in morally gray areas rather than this typical "good vs evil". Yes, the good vs evil is there in the form of white walkers, but it's a backdrop. If a show changes its tone the way GoT has done, it's bound to lose a lot of its original fan base.

As for your second question, I don't really care for the way they deleted so many of the major houses and players. It's very transparent and it indicates that they had no idea how to resolve the plots they started. The bombing of Baelor's Sept is perhaps the most egregious example of this, however not much higher up on the list is Ramsay offing Roose to make sure the Boltons are completely evil and can't be rooted for, Littlefinger being reduced to a pathetic sideline schemer, and Varys being reduced to a bald, frowning guy with nothing interesting to say.
---

scar the 1 posted...

for your second question, I don't really care for the way they deleted so many of the major houses and players. It's very transparent and it indicates that they had no idea how to resolve the plots they started. The bombing of Baelor's Sept is perhaps the most egregious example of this, however not much higher up on the list is Ramsay offing Roose to make sure the Boltons are completely evil and can't be rooted for, Littlefinger being reduced to a pathetic sideline schemer, and Varys being reduced to a bald, frowning guy with nothing interesting to say.

You've got a really good point there haha.
---

AlecSkorpio posted...

Then you have the stuff that makes it even dumber after episode 7? Why did Beric and Tormund have to live through that horde rush if they were just going to possibly die offscreen when the wall fell?

I doubt they died. Tormund is a popular character, and I don't think they would give a character like that an offscreen death unless something happens to the actor between this season and the next that prevents him from being able to return to the show.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7ji_euRLoo

It's funny cause before it was re purposed, the dialogue was about ASOIAF but it's even more apt for the show now.
---

i didn't hate the episode. but some of the goofy shit to me was

they had better ways of getting dany to east watch without having gendry run. bran's been keeping tabs on the night king. he could have seen it and sent the raven. they established the connection between jon and the dragons. they could have sensed he was in danger and dany could have taken off. that would help explain how dany found them too.

if they wanted to jon to fall in the ice, he could have just fallen off a dragon, instead of teasing that with jorah. not charge forward when everyone is on dragons waiting for his ass.

the actual fighting wasn't as good as other fight scenes. jons twirly backstab move was tight though.

you got dudes that can light swords on fire but they're sitting there freezing. lord of light needs to bestow that power to jon as well.

....benjen. just...benjen v_v

the whole plan to begin with was pretty dumb. i guess that was the best way to get the night king a dragon.
---

It was one of the better episodes of the series. Those complaining probably just aren't used to sophisticated and nuanced plots.
---

DifferentialEquation posted...

It was one of the better episodes of the series. Those complaining probably just aren't used to sophisticated and nuanced plots.

I'm really starting to appreciate your posts.
---

The biggest issue to me was just the execution really. Battles in the show generally feel pretty grounded.

Sure we still have the main characters surviving in those battles because at the end of the day it's still a TV show. But we had stuff like the scene where Jon nearly suffocates fighting Ramsay for example. They still feel human.

In this scene we have a badass hero squad fighting off hundreds of zombie soldiers. There's nothing else really like this in the series before. It looked like something from The Avengers.

I think if it was something like Jon and crew spending most of their time hiding behind enemy lines and barely surviving it would have went down a lot better.
---