Board 8 > Is punching a Nazi as bad as being a Nazi?

(+) Yeah! (+)

Well?
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Going to need more details to make a judgement. If the Nazi is all talk and hasn't actually acted than it's worse. If the Nazi is actively hurting people then it's not as bad. Also depends who swung first and how hard of a punch
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What if it's a boxing match
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTs_Q4hEqmA
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MZero11 posted...

Going to need more details to make a judgement. If the Nazi is all talk and hasn't actually acted than it's worse. If the Nazi is actively hurting people then it's not as bad. Also depends who swung first and how hard of a punch

Agreed, context is important here. An angry loser with a tiki torch is little more than a sad, lonely little man, more deserving of pity than punching.

On the other hand, if they're actively invading Poland or France or something, you might need to do more than punch them.

Then again, if they're invading Russia, they're kinda-sorta already punching themselves... Hmm.



But yeah, context is important.
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MZero11 posted...

If the Nazi is all talk and hasn't actually acted

Eh, if someone is dumb enough to "pretend" they're a Nazi, maybe they need some sense knocked into them.
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Altimadark posted...

An angry loser with a tiki torch is little more than a sad, lonely little man, more deserving of pity than punching.

Yeesh
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MZero11 posted...

Going to need more details to make a judgement. If the Nazi is all talk and hasn't actually acted than it's worse. If the Nazi is actively hurting people then it's not as bad. Also depends who swung first and how hard of a punch

The Nazi is in public espousing Nazi beliefs.

And the non-Nazi swings first, a regular dominant hand punch.
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Not as bad

Still stupid to do though (unless actually in self defense). It gives the nazis more ammo to claim that they're being victimized.
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If the Nazi is actively hurting people then it's not as bad.

If someone is "actively hurting people" does it matter if they're a nazi or not?

Like, is there a certain group of people you WOULDN'T punch if they were actively hurting others?
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It gives the nazis more ammo to claim that they're being victimized.

If you are punched for having "offensive ideas" you literally ARE being victimized because assault is literally a crime and having bad ideas is not
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SmartMuffin posted...

It gives the nazis more ammo to claim that they're being victimized.

If you are punched for having "offensive ideas" you literally ARE being victimized because assault is literally a crime and having bad ideas is not

A bad idea that involves murdering people is generally different than a standard bad idea.
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LordoftheMorons posted...

Not as bad

Still stupid to do though (unless actually in self defense). It gives the nazis more ammo to claim that they're being victimized.

No, it's showing them that their beliefs and ideologies will be met with violence if they continue, just as they were in WW2.

Anyone who falls for white supremecists playing the victim card when they're espousing anything from "this one race is inferior to mine" to "kill all Jews" really needs to examine why they're being sympathetic to the type of people who literally started the bloodiest war in history.

EDIT: These people need to be shown that their ideas are not welcome, because when everyone else gets complacent, things like Charlottesville happen.

"I think we should murder SmartMuffin. Don't worry guys it's just a bad idea you can totally ignore me while I carry around firearms and body armor."
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Altimadark posted...

Agreed, context is important here. An angry loser with a tiki torch is little more than a sad, lonely little man, more deserving of pity than punching.

while I agree, the punch itself is still not as bad as being a non practicing nazi
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Also maybe it's just me, but I don't see the whole martyr excuse working out here.


"Well he said he wanted to cleanse the land of all these Jews and [racial slur]s and has talked about wanting to go to war..... but some random person punched him in the face, so maybe he has the right idea after all!"
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It's not really being sympathetic.

It's taking the logic that as a society justifying violence for any reason could send the message that anyone can use violence if it's "justified enough."

Do I shed tears if a Nazi gets punched? Nah. Would I feel good about? I think it's amusing. But then they might want to start punching non-nazis. And there are definitely bad non-nazis that probably deserve to get punched. But soon "good" people are punching "bad" people and we can't agree on who's good and who's bad and we should have said "nobody should get punched" in the first place.
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SantaRPidgey posted...

Altimadark posted...

Agreed, context is important here. An angry loser with a tiki torch is little more than a sad, lonely little man, more deserving of pity than punching.

while I agree, the punch itself is still not as bad as being a non practicing nazi

How are you defining "non practicing" here? Doesn't actively go out and kill people? Doesn't show up to marches and chant slogans inciting violence? What's the dividing line?
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Dark Young Link posted...

Also maybe it's just me, but I don't see the whole martyr excuse working out here.


"Well he said he wanted to cleanse the land of all these Jews and [racial slur]s and has talked about wanting to go to war..... but some random person punched him in the face, so maybe he has the right idea after all!"

http://www.stonekettle.com/2017/08/no-mans-land.html

tl;dr for a certain type of conservative mind, supporting white supremacists is literally the only option because liberals oppose them.
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pjbasis posted...

But then they might want to start punching non-nazis.

This might be the worst slippery slope argument I've ever seen. Showing defiance to domestic terrorists is not going to make someone bloodthirsty unless they already were in the first place.

Or in other words

Do you prefer a world where nobody, not even Nazis, are punched? Or one where Nazis and lots of good people are punched too?

You might want to say "only Nazis" but I don't think it's very feasible.
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Skyridge87 posted...

pjbasis posted...

But then they might want to start punching non-nazis.

This might be the worst slippery slope argument I've ever seen. Showing defiance to domestic terrorists is not going to make someone bloodthirsty unless they already were in the first place.

You're not thinking big scale enough. I'm not accusing an individual who punches a nazi as someone who would become bloodthirsty. I'm talking about when you bend the rules for some, others will bend the rules who shouldn't.
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Former white supremacists and Nazis generally say that an implicit belief common in those circles is that most people secretly agree with them but were conditioned by society to keep their views hidden. Nothing disavows them of that notion faster than getting clocked in the face.

If they are quiet about their views, fine, but once they start publicly proselytizing or making their assholery known I'd say that they're fair game.
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pjbasis posted...

It's taking the logic that as a society justifying violence for any reason could send the message that anyone can use violence if it's "justified enough."

Are you of the belief that war is never justified then?
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Maybe another way to put it is "is vigilantism good?"

My answer to that, as entertaining as many works of fiction are, a resounding no.
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Dark Young Link posted...

pjbasis posted...

It's taking the logic that as a society justifying violence for any reason could send the message that anyone can use violence if it's "justified enough."

Are you of the belief that war is never justified then?

I guess in self-defense. But I think the most rational society would embrace pacifism, at least within itself.
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pjbasis posted...

But I think the most rational society would embrace pacifism, at least within itself.

It is abundantly clear that we do not live in a rational society. The very idea that "oh, they'll come to their senses and calm down if we just leave them alone" is what happened to Germany in the 30s. And we all know how that went.

Skyridge87 posted...

pjbasis posted...

But I think the most rational society would embrace pacifism, at least within itself.

It is abundantly clear that we do not live in a rational society.

The only way to get there is to start trying now. I don't think not punching those nazis would have led to them becoming more prevalent.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/black-man-daryl-davis-befriends-kkk-documentary-accidental-courtesy_us_585c250de4b0de3a08f495fc


If we could all be this guy, world peace would be a lot closer.
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pjbasis posted...

Dark Young Link posted...

pjbasis posted...

It's taking the logic that as a society justifying violence for any reason could send the message that anyone can use violence if it's "justified enough."

Are you of the belief that war is never justified then?

I guess in self-defense. But I think the most rational society would embrace pacifism, at least within itself.

Fair enough. I was making the point that "Sometimes, violence is unfortunately necessary". But reworded to vigilantism then.. yeah, that's a more compelling argument.
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pjbasis posted...

The only way to get there is to start trying now.

No, the only way to get there is to make it crystal clear that such ideologies are not welcome in this country. You probably didn't see my last minute edit, so I'll post it again.

The very idea that "oh, they'll come to their senses and calm down if we just leave them alone" is what happened to Germany in the 30s. And we all know how that went.

Dark Young Link posted...

Also maybe it's just me, but I don't see the whole martyr excuse working out here.


"Well he said he wanted to cleanse the land of all these Jews and [racial slur]s and has talked about wanting to go to war..... but some random person punched him in the face, so maybe he has the right idea after all!"

The context isn't always going to be presented, though

Some people are just going to present the nazi-punching as "another example of the violent left", and then some conservatives-but-not-nazis will be free to imagine that the person getting punched was one of the supposed "very fine people" who was "just protesting the removal of a statue" or something.
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Skyridge87 posted...

The very idea that "oh, they'll come to their senses and calm down if we just leave them alone" is what happened to Germany in the 30s. And we all know how that went.

I don't even know where to start with this. I think the rise of Nazi Germany is a very long and complicated subject. If you think the reason it happened was too many people preaching some pacifism...well I'm gonna need you to expound a lot more on that.
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If you came up to me and told me, in a totally serious non joking way, that you were a nazi, i would probably punch you.

LordoftheMorons posted...

The context isn't always going to be presented, though

Some people are just going to present the nazi-punching as "another example of the violent left", and then some conservatives-but-not-nazis will be free to imagine that the person getting punched was one of the supposed "very fine people" who was "just protesting the removal of a statue" or something.

If you decide that one person getting punched by one person is evidence that the left are all awful and these "very fine people" did nothing wrong, then that's willful blindness. Some people will not be helped. These are the same people who will go "They're not Nazis" until they start invading Germany.
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pjbasis posted...

Skyridge87 posted...

The very idea that "oh, they'll come to their senses and calm down if we just leave them alone" is what happened to Germany in the 30s. And we all know how that went.

I don't even know where to start with this. I think the rise of Nazi Germany is a very long and complicated subject. If you think the reason it happened was too many people preaching some pacifism...well I'm gonna need you to expound a lot more on that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeasement

I believe he's specifically referring to this.
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Leafeon13N posted...

If you came up to me and told me, in a totally serious non joking way, that you were a nazi, i would probably punch you.

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That seems to be more of a country to country relationship thing.

The context I'm talking about is within a country/society, individual to individual.
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To be clear I think that people coming out to peacefully counter the nazi message (and make it clear that they're a fringe ideology that most people reject, as happened today in Boston) is a very good thing; I'm not saying let them have their gathering uninterrupted.
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LordoftheMorons posted...

To be clear I think that people coming out to peacefully counter the nazi message (and make it clear that they're a fringe ideology that most people reject, as happened today in Boston) is a very good thing; I'm not saying let them have their gathering uninterrupted.

yeah this is very good
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as happened today in Boston

today in boston masked communists assaulted a little old lady for the crime of carrying an american flag
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SmartMuffin posted...

as happened today in Boston

today in boston masked communists assaulted a little old lady for the crime of carrying an american flag

This is understandably shitty, but that doesn't discredit the peaceful protesters.
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Dark Young Link posted...

These are the same people who will go "They're not Nazis" until they start invading Germany.

what
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LeonhartFour posted...

I don't even know where to start with this. I think the rise of Nazi Germany is a very long and complicated subject. If you think the reason it happened was too many people preaching some pacifism...well I'm gonna need you to expound a lot more on that.

I'm well aware, but the fact that "people decided to leave the Nazis alone and then WW2 happened" is indisputable. To even BEGIN to entertain the idea that "Oh, they won't be THAT bad this time. They can be reasoned with" is reckless and disrespectful to the entire world.

(also, people have been trying to "reason" with white supremacists for years now. That's why we have no white supremacists these days, you see)

Skyridge87 posted...

I'm well aware, but the fact that "people decided to leave the Nazis alone and then WW2 happened" is indisputable. To even BEGIN to entertain the idea that "Oh, they won't be THAT bad this time. They can be reasoned with" is reckless and disrespectful to the entire world.

"certain people can't be reasoned with" is literally the exact sentiment that leads to war
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NFUN posted...

Dark Young Link posted...

These are the same people who will go "They're not Nazis" until they start invading Germany.

what

Willfully blind people. >_>
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If Nazis had their way, this wouldn't exist

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BSMh9qS0OvE
and I think that's deserving of a slap.
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Man, I'm not even saying we should go try to convert all the white supremacists.

I don't think the people are the problem, they're too small in number for that. It's the idea that we need to stop the spread of. To me that sounds easy. Just keep denouncing white supremacy like we have been for years. Go protest their rallies. I'm not sure what else you want me to say or think needs to be done.

Do you think we would have been worse off if the Charlottesville incident had been nonviolent? Do you see nonviolent protests and think "these guys are doing it wrong, they should be ATTACKING them"? Because I'm just kinda confused where you want to take this.
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pjbasis posted...

I don't think the people are the problem, they're too small in number for that. It's the idea that we need to stop the spread of. To me that sounds easy. Just keep denouncing white supremacy like we have been for years. Go protest their rallies. I'm not sure what else you want me to say or think needs to be done.

Ok, that I actually agree with. I was getting the impression that you were suggesting not protesting things at all.

But if it gets to the point where there's a Nazi screaming in your face, you are well within the moral high ground to punch their teeth in.

Also violence is not the only (or most effective) way to deal with these people. For example, seeing all of these stories about nazis losing their jobs is probably going to cause more second thoughts about future rally attendance than stories about nazis being punched.
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The only reason I am against the whole PUNCH NAZIS YEAH movement of things is because it can quickly become a tool for liberals to incite violence against just about anyone they don't like. I've had users from this board unironically call me a Nazi, which is really fucked up, and like I don't want to think about having to keep my head on a swivvel in public because I'm sort of conservative with my views.

That said, when you strap up with the red armband and start doing salutes in public, you pretty much deserve everything you get and then some.
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