Current Events > Three years since Russia shot down a civilian airliner and murdered 298 people.

(+) Yeah! (+)

God Almighty, please bless our imbecile president and the good people who support him with the clearsightedness to see Russia is not our friend.

Trump supporters don't care about innocent lives

That's why they're glad that Trump still has his nose in the Middle East, and why they're glad that 20 some off million people will be without healthcare
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Do you know how many American citizens would die if we went to war with Russia? 321.4 million. A war with Russia is the end of America as we know it, so it's in everyone's best interest that we keep Putin happy.
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Duncanwii posted...

Do you know how many American citizens would die if we went to war with Russia? 321.4 million. A war with Russia is the end of America as we know it, so it's in everyone's best interest that we keep Putin happy.

Foolish. Foolish. Foolish.

Duncanwii posted...

Do you know how many American citizens would die if we went to war with Russia? 321.4 million. A war with Russia is the end of America as we know it, so it's in everyone's best interest that we keep Putin happy.

Neville Chamberlain would be proud.
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It's very hard for the U.S. government to make a moral case about the wrongness of shooting down civilian airliners and killing 290+ people
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

There are a lot of flaws and faults with the Putin regime, but it behooves us to find a house that isn't made of glass.
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Duncanwii posted...

Do you know how many American citizens would die if we went to war with Russia? 321.4 million. A war with Russia is the end of America as we know it, so it's in everyone's best interest that we keep Putin happy.

no one's going to war with russia. that doesn't mean we should be their friend. also besides nukes, there's nothing militarily that we would have to worry about from russia. and they won't use nukes because they're not suicidal. stop advocating for giving one of geopolitical enemies what they want
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Antifar posted...

It's very hard for the U.S. government to make a moral case about the wrongness of shooting down civilian airliners and killing 290+ people
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

There are a lot of flaws and faults with the Putin regime, but it behooves us to find a house that isn't made of glass.

Let's increase their tax revenue! Implement that carbon tax!

Antifar posted...

It's very hard for the U.S. government to make a moral case about the wrongness of shooting down civilian airliners and killing 290+ people
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

There are a lot of flaws and faults with the Putin regime, but it behooves us to find a house that isn't made of glass.

Come now, TC isn't an agent of our government.

As far as Russia is concerned, I think Obama had the right idea: keep piling on the sanctions and wreck Russia's economy. It's already suffering due to low oil prices. It's not nice, but, let's be honest: who wants to risk a war between nuclear powers over Crimea?

Antifar posted...

It's very hard for the U.S. government to make a moral case about the wrongness of shooting down civilian airliners and killing 290+ people
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

There are a lot of flaws and faults with the Putin regime, but it behooves us to find a house that isn't made of glass.

@Antifar What point did you think you were making when you posted this? That the United States is equally as bad as Russia? It isn't. Such moral equivalence has been the worst thing about leftism for decades and decades -- and I say that as someone who is awfully far left.

Be our country's champion, not its denouncer. For all the mistakes we have made over the years -- there have been many of them -- America has been, and continues to be, a shining light of hope for the rest of the world. Our democracy, our freedom, our Western values *are* special and *should* be fought for. The dictator who rules in Russia is not and should not brook comparison.

I thought this was the plot of Alpha Protocol
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ThyCorndog posted...

Duncanwii posted...

Do you know how many American citizens would die if we went to war with Russia? 321.4 million. A war with Russia is the end of America as we know it, so it's in everyone's best interest that we keep Putin happy.

no one's going to war with russia. that doesn't mean we should be their friend. also besides nukes, there's nothing militarily that we would have to worry about from russia. and they won't use nukes because they're not suicidal. stop advocating for giving one of geopolitical enemies what they want

The TC clearly wants us to go to war with Putin, which would go nuclear very quickly.
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Samurontai posted...

Trump supporters don't care about innocent lives

I really don't get why people think it's okay or reasonable to say things like this.

Glass_Phantom posted...

Antifar posted...

It's very hard for the U.S. government to make a moral case about the wrongness of shooting down civilian airliners and killing 290+ people
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

There are a lot of flaws and faults with the Putin regime, but it behooves us to find a house that isn't made of glass.

@Antifar What point did you think you were making when you posted this? That the United States is equally as bad as Russia? It isn't. Such moral equivalence has been the worst thing about leftism for decades and decades -- and I say that as someone who is awfully far left.

Be our country's champion, not its denouncer. For all the mistakes we have made over the years -- there have been many of them -- America has been, and continues to be, a shining light of hope for the rest of the world. Our democracy, our freedom, our Western values *are* special and *should* be fought for. The dictator who rules in Russia is not and should not brook comparison.

I'm neither left or right or any of these stupid groups, but uh yeah you'd have to be straight up blind as a bat to not see the US has been a war hungry imperialist entity for god knows how many decades. We false flag, we invade, we conquer, we get the oil and resources, we install friendly puppet regimes. Rinse and repeat. Other countries hate the US for a reason. I don't hate the US, idgaf one way or another. Just stating the reality. The US got greedy with the middle east, tempted by the prospect it could have all that oil for themselves, thinking it could pull the same old moves, and instead they destabilized the entire region and created a giant hive of rabid terrorism and radical islamist anti western sentiment.
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Glass_Phantom posted...

Our democracy, our freedom, our Western values *are* special and *should* be fought for. The dictator who rules in Russia is not and should not brook comparison.

Then fight for them everywhere. Stop selling arms to Saudi Arabia and enabling their human catastrophe of a war in Yemen. Stop turning a blind eye to a deeply undemocratic coup in Brazil. Don't aid killers in Honduras. If you are going to be a guardian of the world, such failings undermine your claim to the moral high ground, and create space for enemies to reject that authority.

I don't know what the solution is to Putin and his abuses of LGBT people, journalists, and critics of all kinds. I agree that it is a blight and if it were easy I'd say do whatever is necessary to remove him and his band of kleptocrats from power. But I'm skeptical of harsh sanctions that fall heaviest on the civilians we claim to have in our interest. I grow distrustful when Russia is singled out while we continue to prop up and ally ourselves with monstrous regimes elsewhere.

On the whole, I think the US government has regularly overestimated its ability to shape the rest of the world to our liking, and that arrogance has in recent decades caused at least as much trouble as it has solved.
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Antifar posted...

It's very hard for the U.S. government to make a moral case about the wrongness of shooting down civilian airliners and killing 290+ people
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

There are a lot of flaws and faults with the Putin regime, but it behooves us to find a house that isn't made of glass.

qft

2 shit governments ITT
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Why do you care now?
You did not care under the Obama administration which also was when it happened?
Oh right let me guess you are trying to find that one silver bullet that will justify impeaching him.
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ElatedVenusaur posted...

As far as Russia is concerned, I think Obama had the right idea: keep piling on the sanctions and wreck Russia's economy. It's already suffering due to low oil prices. It's not nice, but, let's be honest: who wants to risk a war between nuclear powers over Crimea?

Obama did not go far enough. His weakness in the face of Russian tampering in our election will forever haunt his legacy.

What should be done about Russia is clear. Declare that a new Cold War is on, for it surely is. Isolate Russia diplomatically. Seize their assets, wherever they can be seized. Devise a new framework within the Northern Alliance to sidestep Russia's veto on the U.N. Security Council and be able to undertake multinational peacekeeping action wherever necessary, as in places like Syria. Garrison the Baltic States and Eastern Europe with troops to repel any attempt at further invasion. Embark on a full court press against Vladimir Putin covertly, to include espionage, hacking, dissemination of scandalous information to make the Russian people question Putin's leadership and turn them against him. Hack their elections. Provide armaments to Ukraine, that they make defend themselves and take back their country. Welcome any European country that is not yet a member of NATO. Impose a no-fly zone over Syria and challenge Russia to violate it. Dictators like Putin do not ask why before they take more power, they only ask why not... And making him look weak is of paramount importance.

Duncanwii posted...

Do you know how many American citizens would die if we went to war with Russia? 321.4 million. A war with Russia is the end of America as we know it, so it's in everyone's best interest that we keep Putin happy.

Hillary wouldn't have taken us to war.
A war with Russia wouldn't go nuclear.
If it did go nuclear, we'd probably be safe because of the anti-air defense we have.
It's not in our best interest to keep Putin happy. Putin wants to annex various Baltic States. Once he gets those, he won't just stop there. Literally just like how the world was like in the lead up to WW 2 because "oh we don't want to go into another war."

Stop fear-mongering and grow a pair.

Antifar posted...

Stop turning a blind eye to a deeply undemocratic coup in Brazil.

@Antifar Brazil has been the victim of no such coup. Their president was impeached for corruption.

The far greater coup in the region has been in Venezuela, where the leftist government of Nicolas Maduro conspires to deny the people their democratic rights, even as they go hungry from lack of food.

Do not lecture me for "turning a blind eye." I am not blind to oppression, no matter what skin it wears.

KarmaMuffin posted...

If it did go nuclear, we'd probably be safe because of the anti-air defense we have.

You have far too much faith in missile defense if you think it would take out even half the missiles Russia would throw at us in a nuclear exchange.
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Glass_Phantom posted...

Do not lecture me for "turning a blind eye." I am not blind to oppression, no matter what skin it wears.

I love it when internet warriors type like this hoping to make themselves look like some movie hero giving a speech
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mustachedmystic posted...

You have far too much faith in missile defense if you think it would take out even half the missiles Russia would throw at us in a nuclear exchange.

By electing Trump, the Republican Party has taken off the mantle of Ronald Reagan.

Let us, as Democrats, pick it up and put it on, taking only the best elements of what Reagan stood for. His tireless pursuit of freedom for the oppressed peoples of Eastern Europe. His adamant opposition to the dictatorship in Moscow. His sacred conviction that America is a shining city on a hill, unique in the world -- which it is. A place whose freedoms millions of people all over the world aspire to -- which they do.

As Antifar has remarked, we need not burden ourselves with all of Reagan's faults and missteps, his support for the Sandinistas and the Mujahadeen, his double-dealings with Iran, the horrific acts which occurred in El Salvador and elsewhere. But let us take what was good about him and make it ours.

The Republican Party does not care about freedom anymore; they wish to see the Middle East in chains. They've deluded themselves into thinking Muslims have to be oppressed to be kept under control. They've deluded themselves into thinking Russia cannot be opposed, for doing so would be tantamount to nuclear war. They are leading this world down a path to destruction. We must be better than them and stand up for what is right. Stand up for freedom, and wear it proudly. If they won't, someone must.

Duncanwii posted...

Do you know how many American citizens would die if we went to war with Russia? 321.4 million. A war with Russia is the end of America as we know it, so it's in everyone's best interest that we keep Putin happy.

Lmao and conservatives have the nerve to say liberals have no spine
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Russia loves me!
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Glass_Phantom posted...

By electing Trump, the Republican Party has taken off the mantle of Ronald Reagan.

Ok, but how does this have anything to do with the point I made in my post? Or, maybe this response was meant for someone else?
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mustachedmystic posted...

Ok, but how does this have anything to do with the point I made in my post? Or, maybe this response was meant for someone else?

What does your post have to do with any of the points I made in my posts?

Lmao why are you typing like this my dude
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literal_garbage posted...

Lmao why are you typing like this my dude

Forgive me, I'm not putting anything on. It is just the way I type. =)

Glass_Phantom posted...

Their president was impeached for corruption.

Corruption that the Senate then found never occurred:

https://theintercept.com/2016/06/30/major-new-brazil-events-expose-the-fraud-of-dilmas-impeachment-and-temers-corruption/

FROM THE START of the campaign to impeach Brazil’s democratically elected President Dilma Rousseff, the primary justification was that she used a budget trick known as pedaladas (“peddling”: illegal delay of re-payments to state banks) to mask public debt. But this week, as the Senate conducts her impeachment trial, that accusation was obliterated: The Senate’s own expert report concluded there was “no indication of direct or indirect action by Dilma” in any such budgetary maneuvers. As the Associated Press put it: “Independent auditors hired by Brazil’s Senate said in a report released Monday that suspended President Dilma Rousseff didn’t engage in the creative accounting she was charged with at her impeachment trial.” In other words, the Senate’s own objective experts gutted the primary claim as to why impeachment was something other than a coup.

And Dilma was replaced by a man who could not legally run for President having been convicted of violating election law, who is now himself the subject of corruption accusations.

Even more significant is the growing evidence of the full-scale corruption of Dilma’s installed replacement, Michel Temer. In just over 30 days since his installation, Temer lost three of his chosen ministers to corruption. One of them, his extremely close ally Romero Jucá, was caught on tape plotting Dilma’s impeachment as a way to shut down the ongoing corruption investigation, as well as indicating that Brazil’s military, the media, and the courts were all participants in the impeachment plotting.

A key investigation informant, former senator and construction executive Sérgio Machado, has now said that Temer received and controlled 1.5 million reals in illegal campaign funds, while a separate informant last week said Temer was the “beneficiary” of 1 million reals in bribes. And Temer is now banned by a court order from running for any office for eight years due to his own violation of election laws. Remember: This is who, in the name of fighting “corruption,” Brazil’s elites installed in the place of the elected president.

Meanwhile, Temer’s political party, PMDB, is almost certainly the most corrupt in this hemisphere. Its president of the lower House, Eduardo Cunha — who presided over Dilma’s impeachment — is now suspended by the Supreme Court, and the House’s Ethics Commission just voted to expel him entirely because he lied about bribe-filled Swiss bank accounts he controls. The same construction executive, Machado, testified that three of PMBD’s key leaders — including Jucá — were paid a total of 71.1 million reals in bribes. Meanwhile, two key Temer allies from the center-right PSDB that Dilma defeated in 2014 — Temer’s Foreign Minister José Serra and Dilma’s 2014 opponent Aécio Neves — are now both targets of the corruption investigation.

Say what you will about Maduro, but at least he was elected.
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Duncanwii posted...

so it's in everyone's best interest that we keep Putin happy.

Jesus christ
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Glass_Phantom posted...

literal_garbage posted...

Lmao why are you typing like this my dude

Forgive me, I'm not putting anything on. It is just the way I type. =)

Alas, I fear that the ability to believe you escapes me.
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Glass_Phantom posted...

mustachedmystic posted...

Ok, but how does this have anything to do with the point I made in my post? Or, maybe this response was meant for someone else?

What does your post have to do with any of the points I made in my posts?

My bad, I somehow confused you with KarmaMuffin.
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Antifar posted...

Say what you will about Maduro, but at least he was elected.

@Antifar "At least Maduro was elected?" Yes, he was elected in a sham election, wherein the state-run media showered him with favorable coverage and gave the opposition a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of the coverage Bernie Sanders got. He has ruled by decree for the last four years, granting himself the unquestioned power to dictate what goes in the country, answerable to none. He's stacked the supreme court with loyalists, imprisoned activists and political opponents, deployed the military against the populace, forced people to work in the fields against their will to grow enough food to feed the starving people, and suspended every effort to have another election. All in the name of preserving "the glorious Bolivarian Revolution of the people" and standing against "the great evil in the world, the United States."

Venezuela is where you ought to direct your ire, not Brazil, whose government is still entirely democratic. Maduro is a villain and he deserves the scorn of the world.

Glass_Phantom posted...

Antifar posted...

Say what you will about Maduro, but at least he was elected.

@Antifar "At least Maduro was elected?" Yes, he was elected in a sham election, wherein the state-run media showered him with favorable coverage and gave the opposition a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of the coverage Bernie Sanders got. He has ruled by decree for the last four years, granting himself the unquestioned power to dictate what goes in the country, answerable to none. He's stacked the supreme court with loyalists, imprisoned activists and political opponents, deployed the military against the populace, forced people to work in the fields against their will to grow enough food to feed the starving people, and suspended every effort to have another election. All in the name of preserving "the glorious Bolivarian Revolution of the people" and standing against "the great evil in the world, the United States."
Venezuela is where you ought to direct your ire, not Brazil, whose government is still entirely democratic. Maduro is a villain and he deserves the scorn of the world.

There's plenty of outrage to go around. What's happening in Brazil is deplorable, and what is happening in Venezuela is terrible too. In both cases, anti-democratic forces have seized power and subverted state institutions for their own gain. That one is nominally conservative and the other nominally socialist is neither here nor there. Any attack on democracy from any angle is outrageous and deserves our fullest condemnation. No need for your and Antifar to play at which one is worse: they're both horrible.

TheFuzz3451 posted...

Duncanwii posted...

Do you know how many American citizens would die if we went to war with Russia? 321.4 million. A war with Russia is the end of America as we know it, so it's in everyone's best interest that we keep Putin happy.

Lmao and conservatives have the nerve to say liberals have no spine

Duncan is a hardcore leftist.
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JohnLennon6 posted...

TheFuzz3451 posted...

Duncanwii posted...

Do you know how many American citizens would die if we went to war with Russia? 321.4 million. A war with Russia is the end of America as we know it, so it's in everyone's best interest that we keep Putin happy.

Lmao and conservatives have the nerve to say liberals have no spine

Duncan is a hardcore leftist.

@TheFuzz3451
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JohnLennon6 posted...

TheFuzz3451 posted...

Duncanwii posted...

Do you know how many American citizens would die if we went to war with Russia? 321.4 million. A war with Russia is the end of America as we know it, so it's in everyone's best interest that we keep Putin happy.

Lmao and conservatives have the nerve to say liberals have no spine

Duncan is a hardcore leftist.

@Duncanwii
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What?
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You should tell the Fuzz that you're not a conservative.
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Yeah

@TheFuzz3451

I'm pretty liberal, I mean I voted for Trump, but that was only to avoid nuclear war. I really wanted to vote for Bernie tbh, but that would've been a wasted vote.
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Glass_Phantom posted...

God Almighty, please bless our imbecile president and the good people who support him with the clearsightedness to see Russia is not our friend.

Remind me again what it was Obama did after it happened, since it was on his watch after all.
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Duncanwii posted...

I mean I voted for Trump

so you're not a liberal then
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Duncanwii posted...

I'm pretty liberal, I mean I voted for Trump, but that was only to avoid nuclear war. I really wanted to vote for Bernie tbh, but that would've been a wasted vote.

@Duncanwii You're a tragically misguided person. =(

TheFuzz3451 posted...

Duncanwii posted...

I mean I voted for Trump

so you're not a liberal then

He was forced to vote for him since Hillary was such an awful candidate.
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