Board 8 > This 26 y/o Girl was shot ELEVEN times by COPS cause she had a GUN to her HEAD!.

(+) Yeah! (+)

26 y/o Ashley DiPiazza from Wisconsin was shot ELEVEN times in 2014 because she had a Gun to her head and was going to commit suicide...and now a federal jury has awarded 7 million in damages to her family because the 2 police officers, though cleared of criminal liability, used unreasonable force to shoot her!!

The civil lawsuit was brought upon her parents after Ashley was holed up in her apartment with a gun to her head..

Justin Bailey and Gary Pihlaja were cleared of criminal liability after they shot her multiple times

Ashley's family said that the officers shot her even though she threatened no one but herself and that police had violated DiPiazza's constitutional rights against unreasonable search and seizures when they killed her.

The police were called to her apartment when her bf said hey had a heated "relationship-ending" argument and Ashley was drinking and had a gun to her head..

They arrived and Ashley had a gun pointed to her own head and after attempting ot talk her down for 30 minutes with the help of a negotiator, both officers shot her 11 times....

Officers testified that they shot her when she refused to ignore their commands to drop the weapon..

In the end, the jury said the officers used unreasonable force when trying to subdue her and the family received 7 million

Unlike other criminal trials, the family only had to convince the jury that their claims are true and Ashley's parents were happy to hear that the jury understood that lethal force should not have been used as they wanted justice for Ashley.

But Jim Palmer said that this verdict sends a disconcerting message to officers because it will lead them to second guess which would put them at risk...

Do you think the Officers were Wrong to use Lethal Force?

Ashley - Deceased

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/07/14/22/425961F500000578-4696810-image-a-73_1500067904513.jpg

http://tinyurl.com/ydhxx7bf

http://tinyurl.com/y7wqhlbd

Officers who shot at her -

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/07/14/22/4259622900000578-4696810-image-m-86_1500068073172.jpg

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/07/14/22/4259622D00000578-4696810-image-a-87_1500068089210.jpg

Her Parents -

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/07/14/22/4259624F00000578-4696810-image-a-88_1500068215231.jpg
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Suicide is a crime punishable by death
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When somebody has a gun and refuses to put it down, and their aim is to clearly cause harm to themself... You have no idea what they're going to do, and if they might turn the gun on you.

Definitely don't agree with the verdict in this one.
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Full Throttle posted...

Justin Bailey

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StealThisSheen posted...

When somebody has a gun and refuses to put it down, and their aim is to clearly cause harm to themself... You have no idea what they're going to do, and if they might turn the gun on you.

Definitely don't agree with the verdict in this one.

Not disagreeing, but if you apply the same logic towards dealing with armed cops...

You never know what anyone is going to do
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In this particular case, I feel the cops were in a no-win situation. They can't use a taser because that would cause the person to squeeze the trigger. They can't risk getting closer without putting their lives in considerably more danger and possibly causing the person to pull the trigger and kill themselves. And they can't leave, because the situation would still persist. The only thing that I could see that they should have done was keep up with the negotiator for as long as it takes, 30 minutes doesn't seem like enough time to talk someone down. So, I can see the argument that they may have acted too soon, but it is a somewhat weak argument.
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how many y/o is the negotiator?
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StealThisSheen posted...

When somebody has a gun and refuses to put it down, and their aim is to clearly cause harm to themself... You have no idea what they're going to do, and if they might turn the gun on you.

Definitely don't agree with the verdict in this one.

So you wait until she puts the gun on you. If a 16 y/o girl can beat two trained officers to the punch with their guns already drawn they shouldn't be cops. And if that's the route they're gonna take they shouldn't even show up in the first place.
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HotDogButts posted...

StealThisSheen posted...

When somebody has a gun and refuses to put it down, and their aim is to clearly cause harm to themself... You have no idea what they're going to do, and if they might turn the gun on you.

Definitely don't agree with the verdict in this one.

So you wait until she puts the gun on you. If a 16 y/o girl can beat two trained officers to the punch with their guns already drawn they shouldn't be cops. And if that's the route they're gonna take they shouldn't even show up in the first place.

But what would you have done in that situation? You can't get any closer because, you know, person is waving a gun around.

Like somebody already said in here... They were in a no-win situation. They can't use a taser because... It could cause the person to pull the trigger. They can't get closer because... Gun. And they can't just leave because... Gun. They're in an apartment, so if she starts shooting in random directions, it could hit somebody else in an adjacent apartment.

What do you do?
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Not murder her
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So you don't have an actual answer?
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Yes, I would pursue literally every other option aside from murdering her.
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You can't get any closer because, you know, person is waving a gun around.

she wasn't waving around, it sounds like it was pretty firmly pointed at her head

do suicidal people ever turn randomly homicidal when people approach them? I don't think it's reasonable to expect her to start shooting wildly.
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MoogleKupo141 posted...

You can't get any closer because, you know, person is waving a gun around.

she wasn't waving around, it sounds like it was pretty firmly pointed at her head

do suicidal people ever turn randomly homicidal when people approach them? I don't think it's reasonable to expect her to start shooting wildly.

She was very drunk, so I don't think it's reasonable to expect a very drunk person NOT to do something.

Besides, suicide by cop is definitely a thing that happens. You have no idea what somebody who is acting erratically is going to do.
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HotDogButts posted...

Yes, I would pursue literally every other option aside from murdering her.

Which are?

You're not answering the question.
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just wait for her to get sober then? no one else was there, she wasn't an imminent danger to anyone but herself.
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StealThisSheen posted...

MoogleKupo141 posted...

You can't get any closer because, you know, person is waving a gun around.

she wasn't waving around, it sounds like it was pretty firmly pointed at her head

do suicidal people ever turn randomly homicidal when people approach them? I don't think it's reasonable to expect her to start shooting wildly.

She was very drunk, so I don't think it's reasonable to expect a very drunk person NOT to do something.

Besides, suicide by cop is definitely a thing that happens. You have no idea what somebody who is acting erratically is going to do.

she wasn't acting erratically, she was doing one thing very deliberately. If she was going for suicide by cop, she had a weird way of going about it.
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MoogleKupo141 posted...

just wait for her to get sober then? no one else was there, she wasn't an imminent danger to anyone but herself.

Well, considering somebody else called the cops in the first place, there was atleast one other person there. And anybody in adjacent apartments, should she shoot a stray bullet.

I don't really think "Just wait for her to get sober" is a possibility. Especially since... If she shoots herself, then the parents sue the cops for not doing enough.
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MoogleKupo141 posted...

StealThisSheen posted...

MoogleKupo141 posted...

You can't get any closer because, you know, person is waving a gun around.

she wasn't waving around, it sounds like it was pretty firmly pointed at her head

do suicidal people ever turn randomly homicidal when people approach them? I don't think it's reasonable to expect her to start shooting wildly.

She was very drunk, so I don't think it's reasonable to expect a very drunk person NOT to do something.

Besides, suicide by cop is definitely a thing that happens. You have no idea what somebody who is acting erratically is going to do.

she wasn't acting erratically, she was doing one thing very deliberately. If she was going for suicide by cop, she had a weird way of going about it.

If she wasn't acting erratically, why did the boyfriend call the cops?
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I mean, here's the thing.

She was very drunk.
She was threatening to shoot herself.
The boyfriend felt it necessary to call the cops.

Based on those facts, it seems odd to just assume that she was sitting there calmly, deliberately going "Don't worry, officers, you are in no harm. I merely aim to shoot myself."

And frankly, if you're going for suicide by cop, refusing to put a gun down when they're telling you to is a definite way to do it, so

Not saying that was her intention, but... There's nothing odd about that scenario.
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The cops had already been there for 30 minutes so it stands to reason that they had a reason to worry for either their own safety or the safety of others that was prompted by something she was saying or doing.
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StealThisSheen posted...

MoogleKupo141 posted...

StealThisSheen posted...

MoogleKupo141 posted...

You can't get any closer because, you know, person is waving a gun around.

she wasn't waving around, it sounds like it was pretty firmly pointed at her head

do suicidal people ever turn randomly homicidal when people approach them? I don't think it's reasonable to expect her to start shooting wildly.

She was very drunk, so I don't think it's reasonable to expect a very drunk person NOT to do something.

Besides, suicide by cop is definitely a thing that happens. You have no idea what somebody who is acting erratically is going to do.

she wasn't acting erratically, she was doing one thing very deliberately. If she was going for suicide by cop, she had a weird way of going about it.

If she wasn't acting erratically, why did the boyfriend call the cops?

because she had a gun to her head. That's bad, but deliberate. It doesn't suggest she's going to start shooting other people.

Well, considering somebody else called the cops in the first place, there was atleast one other person there. And anybody in adjacent apartments, should she shoot a stray bullet.

if he was free to call the police, he probably could have left the apartment. It doesn't sound like it was a hostage situation.

anyone with a gun could shoot that gun and hit someone with a stray bullet. I saw a story about a kid getting hit with a bullet from the sky because some idiot shot his guns up to celebrate the 4th of July.

I think this girl pointing a gun directly at herself was actually less dangerous to other people than the average gun owner.
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Sorry to quadruple post, but after some Googling...

DiPiazza was shot and killed after she walked towards police while holding a gun to her head.

If she was advancing toward them, that definitely changes things even more.
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StealThisSheen posted...

I mean, here's the thing.

She was very drunk.
She was threatening to shoot herself.
The boyfriend felt it necessary to call the cops.

Based on those facts, it seems odd to just assume that she was sitting there calmly, deliberately going "Don't worry, officers, you are in no harm. I merely aim to shoot myself."

And frankly, if you're going for suicide by cop, refusing to put a gun down when they're telling you to is a definite way to do it, so

Not saying that was her intention, but... There's nothing odd about that scenario.

if you're going for suicide by cop you should probably go somewhere where you know cops would be, and/or be actively aggressive toward the cops. At least that's what I would do if I wanted a cop to shoot me.

or be black, I guess. I would do a black face thing first, then go out in public with a gun.
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StealThisSheen posted...

Sorry to quadruple post, but after some Googling...

DiPiazza was shot and killed after she walked towards police while holding a gun to her head.

If she was advancing toward them, that definitely changes things even more.

yeah, that would be a relevant detail
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this is what I deserve for assuming Full Throttle accurately conveyed the details of a news story
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Okay, so basically...

She locked herself in the bedroom with the gun. Boyfriend called cops. Cops arrived. She refused to come out of bedroom. Negotiator tried to talk her out of it. She refused. At some point, the negotiator stopped. Some time after, she opened the door, stepped out, and started walking toward them with the gun pointed at her head. They yelled for her to drop the gun. She didn't, and kept advancing. They fired.

The ruling on it is... Strange, too. It's not really saying they shouldn't have shot her in THAT specific situation. It's saying they should have taken precautions to not let that situation happen in the first place, such as by having ballistic shields. Which is... Fair, I guess, but... Given the situation that actually happened, I feel they were in the right.

Like, it's basically saying they should have prepared for a situation where she came out of the bedroom with the gun, and didn't properly do so. But depending on what info they were given, what time they had, etc... I dunno how possible that was. Like, if they didn't bring ballistic shields, they can't really leave the scene to go get them.
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Can we talk about how they shot her ELEVEN times. Dafuq.
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Waluigi1 posted...

Can we talk about how they shot her ELEVEN times. Dafuq.

No. Cops are trained (and rightfully so) to fire multiple times in quick succession in scenarios where it is justified to use force.

Cops don't aim for the gun or aim for the leg because that would not be as likely to resolve the threat of the situation.

Cops aim for the torso because it's the target they are most likely to hit, and they fire multiple times because a single shot is also often not enough to remove any threat.


Eleven might sound like a lot, but it really isn't once you've determined the use of force was reasonable.
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Yeah. They're trained that way because in cases of the person being large, heavily drugged, etc., it often takes multiple shots to make them go down. But it wouldn't be good to try to make them judge in the moment "Will this person take three shots or ten," so they're trained to just take multiple shots, period.
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That's dumb. Aren't there other countries where their cops only kill like 10 people a year, plus have less cop deaths and stuff? How come they can get a better system to work but we can't? Our cops all seem so trigger happy.
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Waluigi1 posted...

That's dumb. Aren't there other countries where their cops only kill like 10 people a year, plus have less cop deaths and stuff? How come they can get a better system to work but we can't? Our cops all seem so trigger happy.

Those other countries either have much, much smaller populations, or much, much stricter gun laws. It's not really a case of them having a better police system as much as them either having lower populations and thus lower crime, or having laws that make it much tougher to own a gun.
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If someone has a gun to their head and multiple guns pointed at them, and is ignoring clear instructions, it's not safe to make assumptions on their intentions. Sucks that it happened but the cops were not wrong.
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To people defending the cops here, what you're arguing is that it's okay to burst into someones home who is going to kill themselves, and if they refuse to not cooperate with you even though they're clearly under mental duress, it's okay if you shoot them 11 times.

If someones uncooperative and suicidal and there's no one else there to be hurt, which the bf would've confirmed. You have absolutely no reason to forcibly intervene at all, at worst they shoot themselves (which is ridiculously a crime) and at best they don't.

Literally no reason for them to forcibly intervene unless someone elses life was in danger. This is the same reason they don't pull out spike traps on busy motorways during high speed police chases because it puts others in danger, and for no benefit.

The only reason to fear a suicide bid if you're not a friend/loved one of the person is if you're either an insurance broker, a debtor or worried they wont die and will cause extremely expensive medical bills.
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Bf: don't worry she won't shoot you
Cops: k, I'm convinced lol :P
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MenuWars posted...

To people defending the cops here, what you're arguing is that it's okay to burst into someones home who is going to kill themselves, and if they refuse to not cooperate with you even though they're clearly under mental duress, it's okay if you shoot them 11 times.

If someones uncooperative and suicidal and there's no one else there to be hurt, which the bf would've confirmed. You have absolutely no reason to forcibly intervene at all, at worst they shoot themselves (which is ridiculously a crime) and at best they don't.

Literally no reason for them to forcibly intervene unless someone elses life was in danger. This is the same reason they don't pull out spike traps on busy motorways during high speed police chases because it puts others in danger, and for no benefit.

The only reason to fear a suicide bid if you're not a friend/loved one of the person is if you're either an insurance broker, a debtor or worried they wont die and will cause extremely expensive medical bills.

Then maybe the boyfriend shouldn't have called the cops? They weren't just walking by and then "Oh man we should go fuck with that suicidal chick." They were called there. They were doing their jobs. And they didn't "forcibly intervene." They were there as backup to somebody who was trying to talk her down. Through a closed door, mind you. It didn't become a physical situation until the girl came out of the room with the gun and advanced toward them. There was no "bursting" in or anything at all, so your hypothetical is stupid. Like, if you're going to judge people from a high horse, atleast make sure you've got the facts right and that your analogy isn't dumb as shit.

If you want them to never take suicide calls, then that's one thing. But I have a feeling that you'd be blaming them if they refused to do anything, too.
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I'm legitimately curious what you think they should have done in that situation. They get called there. A person who is clearly unstable at the time locked themselves in a room with a loaded gun.

They did NOT break the door down and go into the room, as you seem to think. They waited, while a negotiator tried to talk the girl down.

They can't just leave, because... Somebody unstable has a gun and they were made aware of the situation. If they leave and the girl shoots somebody else, such as the boyfriend because he tries to intervene, then that is obviously very bad.

So they just waited outside the door. And only reacted when the situation called for it.

What different do you want, exactly?
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MenuWars posted...

To people defending the cops here, what you're arguing is that it's okay to burst into someones home who is going to kill themselves, and if they refuse to not cooperate with you even though they're clearly under mental duress, it's okay if you shoot them 11 times.

If someones uncooperative and suicidal and there's no one else there to be hurt, which the bf would've confirmed. You have absolutely no reason to forcibly intervene at all, at worst they shoot themselves (which is ridiculously a crime) and at best they don't.

Literally no reason for them to forcibly intervene unless someone elses life was in danger. This is the same reason they don't pull out spike traps on busy motorways during high speed police chases because it puts others in danger, and for no benefit.

The only reason to fear a suicide bid if you're not a friend/loved one of the person is if you're either an insurance broker, a debtor or worried they wont die and will cause extremely expensive medical bills.

It was in an apartment. Spoilers bullets travel through walls
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MenuWars posted...

The only reason to fear a suicide bid if you're not a friend/loved one of the person is if you're either an insurance broker, a debtor or worried they wont die and will cause extremely expensive medical bills.

To further pick apart this post, it's a good thing in your made up scenario funerals are never ruinously expensive.

(spoilers: they can be)
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Forceful_Dragon posted...

MenuWars posted...

The only reason to fear a suicide bid if you're not a friend/loved one of the person is if you're either an insurance broker, a debtor or worried they wont die and will cause extremely expensive medical bills.

To further pick apart this post, it's a good thing in your made up scenario funerals are never ruinously expensive.

(spoilers: they can be)

(spoilers: I know, but that doesn't affect the cops that shot her one bit now does it?)
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Oh and to answer your question, about what I'd have them do, I'd have them guard outside whilst medical professionals were called, hell get some tranq darts, if you have to shoot someone that was trying to commit suicide 11 times, you're a douchebag, stupid, and a coward.
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MenuWars posted...

Oh and to answer your question, about what I'd have them do, I'd have them guard outside whilst medical professionals were called, hell get some tranq darts, if you have to shoot someone that was trying to commit suicide 11 times, you're a douchebag, stupid, and a coward.

Maybe they needed to shoot her 11 times because she can dodge bullets like you dodge points that people make >_>
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MenuWars posted...

Oh and to answer your question, about what I'd have them do, I'd have them guard outside whilst medical professionals were called, hell get some tranq darts, if you have to shoot someone that was trying to commit suicide 11 times, you're a douchebag, stupid, and a coward.

Or someone with a gun is approaching you, they are refusing orders to stop or drop the gun, so you do the regrettable because you must.

I don't envy them having to do that, but in this specific situation they had to.

We've already discussed that the number of shots is not an absurd number. Not unless they shot her once every 5-6 seconds over the course of a minute. But all 11 shots likely occurred in a single burst of shots.

If they only fired once apiece it would have been stupid and dangerous.
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ImTheMacheteGuy posted...

Bf: don't worry she won't shoot you
Cops: k, I'm convinced lol :P

Also that's not what I was saying at all, I merely said the boyfriend would have alerted them to anyone in the vicinity that may have been in harms way, like this was a suicide bid not a hostage situation, unless it WAS a hostage situation and the courts decided to donate 7 million dollars for laughs.
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Also if the officers testified that they shot her because she refused to drop the weapon, where are you getting the acted threateningly, waved her arms about, advanced on them with a weapon parts?

If she was acting like a psychopath, why was 7 million dollars awarded? The cops have gotten away with far worse, under the pretences of self defence, what makes this 7 million dollars worth of fuck up as opposed to the rest?
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MenuWars posted...

I merely said the boyfriend would have alerted them to anyone in the vicinity that may have been in harms way, like this was a suicide bid not a hostage situation

And this boyfriend happens to know everyone within a quarter of a mile and knew their exact locations.

What kind of hypothetical situation have you crafted for yourself here?
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What kind of hypothetical have you crafted for yourself where the suicidal drunk woman suddenly starts sharp shooting people?
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MenuWars posted...

Also if the officers testified that they shot her because she refused to drop the weapon, where are you getting the acted threateningly, waved her arms about, advanced on them with a weapon parts?

"acted threateningly". Who said this happened?

"waved her arms about". Who said this happened?

"advanced on them with a weapon"
-This part actually happened and is very important.

MenuWars posted...

If she was acting like a psychopath, why was 7 million dollars awarded?

If I had to guess it would be because juries are sympathetic in situations like that and cops are getting a lot of bad publicity for police shootings these days. It's also possible that there was some procedure they failed to follow or some reason to believe they could have better deescalated the situation before it played out the way it did.

But you cant use a potentially erroneous court decision to justify your hypothetical fantasy scenario.


We saw the court decision and said "Well based on the article and the events, that seems like a bad court decision".

You ignored the evidence and description of events are instead using the fact that a court decision was awarded to push your own narrative.

That's quite a different take there.
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Have you heard of risk assessment?
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...and you can't make up evidence to back your assertion when a court ruled in favour of the cops fucking it up.
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