Board 8 > ~Supreme Court Healthcare Ruling Discussion Topic Part 2~

(+) Yeah! (+)

muddersmilk posted...

I wonder if that changes how easy/difficult it will be to repeal?

That is a very good question.

I wouldn't think so, but who knows.

It's been awhile since I studied this, but two questions to consider:


What kind of majority is needed for Congress to cease the levying of a tax?
What kind of majority is needed for Congress to repeal a law?

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I'm still not sure why lib8rals would want this. I thought they wanted "free" healthcare for everyone, not for everyone to be forced to pay for it. Maybe they just want a victory for Obama so that he can have momentum going into the election?

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I thought they wanted "free" healthcare for everyone, not for everyone to be forced to pay for it.

Uh... I don't think anyone was arguing in favor of that. How the hell can all the citizens of the United States get free healthcare? Where is all the money that would cost supposed to come from?

Mr Lasastryke posted...

I thought they wanted "free" healthcare for everyone, not for everyone to be forced to pay for it.

Uh... I don't think anyone was arguing in favor of that. How the hell can all the citizens of the United States get free healthcare? Where is all the money that would cost supposed to come from?

I mean I always thought it was impossible. Maybe I shouldn't have said lib8rals and istead said facebook liberals. I always seem them saying we should have free healthcare like France.

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From: Mr Lasastryke | #053

Where is all the money that would cost supposed to come from?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve_System

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Mr Lasastryke posted...

I thought they wanted "free" healthcare for everyone, not for everyone to be forced to pay for it.

Uh... I don't think anyone was arguing in favor of that. How the hell can all the citizens of the United States get free healthcare? Where is all the money that would cost supposed to come from?

He meant single-payer, ie government destroying the private sector incentivized healthcare industry so we all have mediocre coverage

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Apparently if we consider this a "tax," it is the single largest tax increase in the history of civilization

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From: Mershaaay | #057

Apparently if we consider this a "tax," it is the single largest tax increase in the history of civilization

If you think of it like that, it also involves the single largest tax cut in the history of civilization. Reagan would be proud.

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I have no problem with people coming to The Greatest Country on Earth to seek better lives for themselves ("legally" or not, ie by dealing with the ridiculous immigration bureaucracy put in place by Democrats), but I do have a problem with them coming here and committing crimes.

I just wanted to take the time to point out how reasonable this is and I feel like this is something that is just so common sense that both the left and the right shouldn't even have to debate it. But alas...

Anyway, if this is considered a tax, this has to be one of the most regressive taxes ever, right? I mean, the wealthy and even the moderately wealthy no doubt already have insurance and are thus exempt. The arguments here are huge, so admittedly I'm not done reading all of it yet.

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Suprak the Stud posted...

I have no problem with people coming to The Greatest Country on Earth to seek better lives for themselves ("legally" or not, ie by dealing with the ridiculous immigration bureaucracy put in place by Democrats), but I do have a problem with them coming here and committing crimes.

I just wanted to take the time to point out how reasonable this is and I feel like this is something that is just so common sense that both the left and the right shouldn't even have to debate it. But alas...

Anyway, if this is considered a tax, this has to be one of the most regressive taxes ever, right? I mean, the wealthy and even the moderately wealthy no doubt already have insurance and are thus exempt. The arguments here are huge, so admittedly I'm not done reading all of it yet.

Look, we dont have the broad-based political support for real reform one way or the other.

Ideally we'd be on single-payer with the burden placed on the wealthy instead of the poor, but its also about time that everyone have access to preventative healthcare to avoid the necessity of ridiculously expensive emergency treatments.

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SCOTUS also struck down a stupid anti free speech law (the one making it a crime to lie about winning service medals).

Besides refusing to reconsider Citizens United I'd say they're on a roll here!

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Suprak the Stud posted...

Anyway, if this is considered a tax, this has to be one of the most regressive taxes ever, right? I mean, the wealthy and even the moderately wealthy no doubt already have insurance and are thus exempt. The arguments here are huge, so admittedly I'm not done reading all of it yet.

It is essentially a massive tax levied exclusively on the middle class, particularly against those who are unemployed (or underemployed).

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I am having a fun time watching morons on Twitter declare they're moving to Canada over this.

As if Canada wasn't a pioneer of universal health care.

By all means, let them leave.

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I'm fine with this as it gives Romney a solid platform (repeal obamacare), nearly 2/3 americans oppose it, and it reduces the chance people feel bad for Obama in November.

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There's also a built-in subsidy based on income to help those with low income pay for the mandated health insurance. I personally don't know many details about the subsidy and how well in practice it will help low-income people get health care, but it's not like they're explicitly going to tax people who are too poor to afford the mandated health coverage.

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the7joker7 posted...

I'm fine with this as it gives Romney a solid platform (repeal obamacare), nearly 2/3 americans oppose it, and it reduces the chance people feel bad for Obama in November.

I literally just applied to work as a writer for Romney's campaign.


I'll probably get the job (since I am a stud), but it involves moving to Boston ugh. I'll probably accept the offer if they give me a better salary than I am predicting they usually offer.

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VF1MS Metal Siren posted...

There's also a built-in subsidy based on income to help those with low income pay for the mandated health insurance. I personally don't know many details about the subsidy and how well in practice it will help low-income people get health care, but it's not like they're explicitly going to tax people who are too poor to afford the mandated health coverage.

yes, but they are taxing those who might be "middle class" but have no employer-based healthcare!

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From: the7joker7 | #064

I'm fine with this as it gives Romney a solid platform (repeal obamacare), nearly 2/3 americans oppose it, and it reduces the chance people feel bad for Obama in November.

and half the people who oppose it do so because they don't think it goes far enough.

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This case is not nearly as bad for conservatives as is being portrayed. In fact, this ends up being a net positive. The court just dealt a decisive blow to liberal arguments on the commerce clause, completely diffused arguments regarding the court's so-called activism, galvanized conservatives and gave us the best fundraising pitch you could possibly imagine.

This is why I am a fan of Chief Justice Roberts. His ruling doesn't give Congress an ounce of extra power it didn't have before but sets a potentially huge road-map for curbing commerce power in the future. The court also just got a lot more latitude when it comes to Article V of the Voting Rights Act, Affirmative Action, and any further Citizens United cases.

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Mershaaay posted...

the7joker7 posted...

I'm fine with this as it gives Romney a solid platform (repeal obamacare), nearly 2/3 americans oppose it, and it reduces the chance people feel bad for Obama in November.

I literally just applied to work as a writer for Romney's campaign.


I'll probably get the job (since I am a stud), but it involves moving to Boston ugh. I'll probably accept the offer if they give me a better salary than I am predicting they usually offer.

Enjoy man!

I'm thinking about joining the Young Republicans, as long as they don't try to make me cold call people.

--
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the7joker7 posted...

Mershaaay posted...

the7joker7 posted...

I'm fine with this as it gives Romney a solid platform (repeal obamacare), nearly 2/3 americans oppose it, and it reduces the chance people feel bad for Obama in November.

I literally just applied to work as a writer for Romney's campaign.


I'll probably get the job (since I am a stud), but it involves moving to Boston ugh. I'll probably accept the offer if they give me a better salary than I am predicting they usually offer.

Enjoy man!

I'm thinking about joining the Young Republicans, as long as they don't try to make me cold call people.

Unless you are a professional, just about any campaign work will involve cold calling or handing out bumper stickers.

--
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Mershaaay posted...

the7joker7 posted...

Mershaaay posted...

the7joker7 posted...

I'm fine with this as it gives Romney a solid platform (repeal obamacare), nearly 2/3 americans oppose it, and it reduces the chance people feel bad for Obama in November.

I literally just applied to work as a writer for Romney's campaign.


I'll probably get the job (since I am a stud), but it involves moving to Boston ugh. I'll probably accept the offer if they give me a better salary than I am predicting they usually offer.

Enjoy man!

I'm thinking about joining the Young Republicans, as long as they don't try to make me cold call people.

Unless you are a professional, just about any campaign work will involve cold calling or handing out bumper stickers.

I can't stand that ****. Oh well, I'll just donate to Romney's campaign and quietly support him from the background.

--
Mitt Romney 2012

I mean, depending on what you want to do as a career there are two routes.


1. Pay your dues and do all this volunteer/intern work so you can start at the bottom of the barrel in politics after college (and do basically the same work for little pay)


2. Do something somewhat relevant in the private sector, make a name for yourself, and then campaigns will hire you into positions of power (thus skipping over all the crap work)

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Oh I'd just be doing it to support my candidate.

I have a fantastic full time job as a software developer I'm more than happy with.

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On the issue of repeal:

Because John Roberts concluded it was a tax, the Democrats cannot filibuster its repeal because of the same reconciliation procedure the Democrats used to pass it.

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the7joker7 posted...

Oh I'd just be doing it to support my candidate.

I have a fantastic full time job as a software developer I'm more than happy with.

good man, politics is a terrible career choice

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Anyway I don't see any way this thing doesn't die eventually. Too many hoops to get through.

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Mershaaay posted...

the7joker7 posted...

Oh I'd just be doing it to support my candidate.

I have a fantastic full time job as a software developer I'm more than happy with.

good man, politics is a terrible career choice

Yeah I just want to support Mitt for the sake of it.

Maybe I'll donate...not that he needs it.

--
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this is a great day for america. everyone under 26 should especially be rejoicing.

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WalrusJump posted...

this is a great day for america. everyone under 26 should especially be rejoicing.

Not those of us who have jobs and our own insurance!

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How does already having your own insurance make this a bad thing? Just because it doesn't help you doesn't make it bad.

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Mershaaay posted...

WalrusJump posted...

this is a great day for america. everyone under 26 should especially be rejoicing.

Not those of us who have jobs and our own insurance!

This.

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WalrusJump posted...

this is a great day for america. everyone under 26 should especially be rejoicing.

ITP: the majoriy of America is under 26.

I just turned 26 not too long ago but even then I've had my own health insurance for 4 years.

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Or is it bad because part of my taxes will now go to helping unfortunate people? OH NOES.

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If those unfortunate people don't have health insurance, they have to pay extra taxes, too.

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My Immortal posted...

Or is it bad because part of my taxes will now go to helping unfortunate people? OH NOES.

"Unfortunate people," who may not want insurance, are now going to be forced to buy insurance. Your taxes will do nothing to help them, since the most impoverished families will already be on Medicaid.

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From: WalrusJump | #079

this is a great day for america. everyone under 26 should especially be rejoicing.

Unless you are, you know, independent.

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To expand on what I said earlier:

John Roberts is a boss. He restrains Congress' Spending power (via the ruling on the Medicaid mandate) in the most significant way since pre-New Deal (in a 7-2 decision no less!), strikes down the entire argument the administration used regarding the Necessary and Proper Clause, completely nullified any arguments against the court's activism, and diffused future arguments regarding rulings (hello Citizens United). Oh, and he did all of this without overruling Congress directly AND he comes out as the good guy for being bipartisan and giving the liberals what they wanted on face (which is all the headlines will care about).

Pure. Genius.

Turns out Congress is allowed to pass bad policy and it's their responsibility to deal with the consequences.

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From: My Immortal | #081

How does already having your own insurance make this a bad thing? Just because it doesn't help you doesn't make it bad.

I don't have insurance and it doesn't help me, because I want there to be competition in the health care industry so that I can get a good deal that fits my needs (which is very little healthcare since I rarely go to the doctor and have a great immune system and have never been admitted to a hospital).

But instead I am forced to pay for an overpriced product that I don't need, which makes the super rich healthcare companies even richer due to a government-enforced monopoly.

Keep in mind that poor people have to pay taxes, too.

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completely diffused arguments regarding the court's so-called activism

You would think that.

But it won't stop

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From: CeraSeptem | #091

completely diffused arguments regarding the court's so-called activism

You would think that.

But it won't stop

Oh, it won't stop from some people, but the arguments will be a lot more silly now (not that they weren't before) and Obama can't campaign against the Supreme Court in the manner that he would have had the decision been the other way. Even the media will tone it down a bit. This is the easy counter-example to Citizens United - a case that by the way is guaranteed to never be overturned by this court (even though that was obvious after the Montana decision) since the conservatives have a bit more latitude now.

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Regressive taxes are the last resort of failed governments that spend more than they produce for their society. When you're trying to balance the budget on the backs of parking tickets issued to homeless people.....

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red sox 777 posted...

Regressive taxes are the last resort of failed governments that spend more than they produce for their society. When you're trying to balance the budget on the backs of parking tickets issued to homeless people.....

exactly


such a shame that the bill just didn't offer a tax cut or write-off for buying health insurance

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It looks like because it's now a tax, the bill can be repealed with only a majority in the Senate, instead of 60 votes. And reading the opinion, the Court does give some limits on what can be considered a tax vs. what can be considered a penalty. Namely, something like a 90% marginal income tax rate on fat people would probably be construed as a penalty under this opinion.

So I guess, overall- not bad. The important thing is that the doctrine of virtually unlimited power under the Commerce Clause has been stopped again.

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