LogFAQs > #952475273

darkknight109 posted...

Yes there is.

I've already covered this - money is a measure of human labour. It was invented when we shifted from a barter economy ("I will trade you one goat for a cubit of lumber") into a monetary one, where we agreed that people would award each other these little magic tokens based on an arbitrary unit of value.

In a fully automated future, no human labour is happening. That means money cannot exist, because there's no way to earn it (because robots are doing all the jobs) and nothing to spend it on (robots make everything with zero human input).

By definition, money only exists in a world where we have human labour that needs to be recognized and valued; in a fully automated future, that prerequisite no longer exists.

It doesn't mean money can't exist. It can and will. It's be nearly impossible to get unless someone gives it to us. Plus, we still need money fort things like houses. We won't just be able to go and live in a big mansion for free because we want it. Or have land for free since we want it. We still need something to keep things fair. Or do you think everyone should just have to stay where they are forever? And like I said, the people who use money to gain power will make sure money stays that way. If they know by automating everything, they'll lose money and power, then they won't use their money to automate everything. It's that simple. The people with money and power don't want to lose it, so won't do anything that would bring to the level of us commoners. it would literally make no sense for them to give up that power so willingly... So, there is no proof that money won't exist...

darkknight109 posted...

Yes, because other people are still working because we don't live in a fully automated world.

Some people are working == not fully automated == money exists
No people are working == fully automated == money cannot exist

This is a very simple relationship.

And in the future, there will still be people working. Full automation won't happen for decades. We're decades away. But wen things are mostly automated, we'll still need people working. Even at like 80% automation, we'll need people working. What happens to everybody then? It just sucks to be all the people not working, I guess...

darkknight109 posted...

That's a nonsense system, though. After all, if the people "in power" need the people without power to have money, that means they have to give it to them, purely so they can take it from them again.

What's the point? If I charge you 300 DKDollars for my services, then mail you 300 DKDollars as a reward for using my services afterwards, those DKDollars have no value because you're not doing anything to earn them. I'm not paying for your labour, just giving you tokens that you can give back to me in some bizarre trading game.

The reason why people in power covet money today is because money represents human labour, which represents power. By having a token representing human labour, you can exchange those tokens to make people do what you want. In a fully automated future, that's no longer true. Money would have no power because people could live their lives completely satisfactorily without any money and, therefore, buying someone's labour is both impossible and pointless (why spend money on a person when a machine can do the same thing cheaper and better?)

Yes. And they'll do that. Give you the money that they'll take again. Because it keeps them in control... And the people will need them to survive. When the people need you like that, you have so much power over them... And you'll still have to do something to get those DKDollars. Idk what it is you'll do, but they'll make you do it to keep you listening to them. Maybe that's what the measly $500 will be used for. And the reason is to keep you under their control. It's really quite simple. Those people don't want to lose power over you...

darkknight109 posted...

It would be almost impossible for them not to.

Technology improves at a rate far faster than biology can match. Computers are less than a century old, yet they are already capable of doing most tasks as good or better than humans. That they haven't yet matched us in specific fields in no way suggests that they won't be able to in the future.

This "oh, humans are just naturally better at this sort of thing" logic has been tested before and it has never, ever held water. People assumed for a long time that games like Ichigo and Chess were too complex for a machine to play at the level of a human grandmaster, who can think 30, 40, 50 moves ahead and who can feint out opponents with false strategies. Then AIs were developed that even the greatest masters of the game could not beat.

This is, in essence, simply the next level as that. AI are currently nowhere close to being as good at humans at creative endeavours, but that will change - and likely change rapidly - in the future.

Playing a game isn't hard. Especially at something like chess. Using data that's input, they can guess the mostly likely move. And they can see 100 of moves into the future to see what the best move is. But playing and making a game are very different things. Many people who play games can't make them. And I've even seen where people who make a game aren't the best at playing them. It always made sense that a computer could win at something like that. Cause making something is more than taking data from all other games, and mashing them into one...

darkknight109 posted...

And some don't. Some do it purely for the joy of creating something. Some do it for fame or recognition, which would still be valid currency in an automated future (hell, that sort of influence would probably be one of the more valuable currencies in a world where money no longer exists).

Again, money will exist. But who's to say the game will be available to all? Just because they enjoy creating it doesn't mean everyone would be able to play it. Like how people sometimes just create things for friends. It also depends on what it takes to create it. And even then, it'll probably be a lot less than what we have now. Since it'll probably be a fraction of developers... Which is sad, since I like games...
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