Lurker > RetuenOfDevsman

LurkerFAQs, Active Database ( 12.01.2023-present ), DB1, DB2, DB3, DB4, DB5, DB6, DB7, DB8, DB9, DB10, DB11, DB12, Clear
Board List
Page List: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 60
Topicgot fired from my job at the zipper factory today
RetuenOfDevsman
05/09/24 9:58:34 AM
#28
Kamil posted...
You can replace a button, but a zipper, that's game over. Do you know anyone who ever replaced a zipper? I don't.
I can't actually think of anyone who has done any kind of clothing repair in the last quarter century.

My mom used to, but that was because we were poor. And lemme tell ya, that was a kind of poor that doesn't exist anymore. I'm talking, my mom sewed all our clothes because shopping at K-Mart was a pipe dream.

---
There's a difference between canon and not-stupid.
TopicHow many walls does your bed touch?
RetuenOfDevsman
05/09/24 9:49:10 AM
#26
TMOG posted...
One, because my bedroom is so small and poorly laid out that if I moved my bed to a corner I'd either be blocking my power outlet, my heat/AC vent, my closet door, or my bedroom door.
I don't understand how this is such a common thing.

It's like the people who build stuff don't even think of... like, literally anything.

We do all kinds of dumb shit like running extension cords next to the baseboards and having freakin' ceiling fan remotes because of this kind of nonsense. And don't even get me started on power outlets tied to light switches. I wanna punch literally everyone who has ever done this.

---
There's a difference between canon and not-stupid.
TopicHow many walls does your bed touch?
RetuenOfDevsman
05/09/24 8:38:20 AM
#21
If I had a bedroom the size of a jumbo jet hangar, I would still put the bed against a wall tbh.

---
There's a difference between canon and not-stupid.
TopicGreat stuff, Google
RetuenOfDevsman
05/09/24 8:33:41 AM
#12
I played 20 questions with Google's AI chatbot once, back when it was Bard. It was the most mind-blowingly surreal incompetence I've ever witnessed.

First, it thought of a word and it asked me to ask questions. For a while, it did ok but it started going off the rails hard af before too long.

I started by narrowing down the letter it starts with. Before M. Before H. Before E. After C. ... Not D... At this point I just asked it what letter it starts with. It's B. So I ask, it starts with a letter that comes after C, but it also starts with B? That's correct, it says.

... Ok.

So I ask for a part of speech. It's a noun. Then it starts asking me questions about its own word. Is it a vehicle, it asks?

I just decided to play along. Yes.

Then it gives me a list of vehicles that start with B, and asks me if it's one of those:

Blimp
Bicycle
Birplane
Boat

... Freakin' birplane.

I just kept saying yes from this point on. Turns out I was thinking of blimp. Even I didn't know. So I congratulated it on being really good at this and it thanked me and told me to let it know if I wanted to play another game.

---
There's a difference between canon and not-stupid.
Topicgot fired from my job at the zipper factory today
RetuenOfDevsman
05/09/24 8:23:41 AM
#25
What a kick in the teeth

---
There's a difference between canon and not-stupid.
TopicHoly shit my dad got me a book of Dad jokes for my birthday.
RetuenOfDevsman
05/09/24 8:21:23 AM
#115
Master_Kazuya posted...
I'm glad you put the asinine ratings in spoiler tags, ruins the jokes otherwise
I mean, I could always just stop rating them at all.

---
There's a difference between canon and not-stupid.
TopicJames Gunn's thoughts on Batman 89
RetuenOfDevsman
05/09/24 8:18:10 AM
#52
vycebrand2 posted...
89 Gotham looks like a fake city. It's why I like the Bale Gotham. 89 Gotham borrows alot from the 40's and 50's being set then might work better.
It looks like a fake city because it IS a fake city. There is no real Gotham. These are just sets.

What they got right about it, though, was the architecture, dirtiness and overall tone.

It's actually one of my criticisms of the Nolan films. Though I much preferred them overall to every other Batman films, in 2 and 3 Gotham was just Chicago.

---
There's a difference between canon and not-stupid.
TopicHoly shit my dad got me a book of Dad jokes for my birthday.
RetuenOfDevsman
05/09/24 8:11:25 AM
#113
Day 28:

How does a farmer keep track of his cattle?

With a cow-culator.

7/10, I kinda like this one.

---
There's a difference between canon and not-stupid.
TopicWhat system was your very first Legend of Zelda game from?
RetuenOfDevsman
05/09/24 5:43:03 AM
#42
LeoRavus posted...
Yet another poll reminding us that CE is old. The average age has to be over 40 at this point.
There's probably more to it than that. Selection bias (as in, if your first was BotW you might not be as likely to vote), people who start at the beginning even if it's not the most recent release, maybe more.

---
There's a difference between canon and not-stupid.
TopicSince when did the word "cap" become slang for lying?
RetuenOfDevsman
05/08/24 11:48:23 PM
#18
Hinakuluiau posted...
It's easy to forget how white CE can be sometimes
The little bit of slang I know these days all comes from here.

It's always like "what does this mean"

And, it kinda varies between "haha yeah it's slang" and like, the pianist stops playing and the cowboys over at the card table all start gathering their chips and the marshall lumbers over to inquire just where the hell I come from.

---
There's a difference between canon and not-stupid.
Topicwho is that user that would always tell you to.
RetuenOfDevsman
05/08/24 11:23:54 PM
#5
In my head canon, internet arguments are won by being able to resist calling the opponent "kid" longer.

---
There's a difference between canon and not-stupid.
TopicWere you breastfed, CE?
RetuenOfDevsman
05/08/24 11:22:09 PM
#7
Don't remember. How does anybody know this? Your families bring it up at dinner?

---
There's a difference between canon and not-stupid.
TopicIs 30fps in a video game acceptable to you?
RetuenOfDevsman
05/08/24 10:06:47 PM
#8
60 is better but 30 is fine.

I think I'm a rarity, being able to tell the difference but not considering it the only thing in the universe that matters.

---
There's a difference between canon and not-stupid.
TopicVideo games should be covered by the 1A... But...
RetuenOfDevsman
05/08/24 10:01:44 PM
#18
[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

Well, I'm still working through the series but so far I like the two numbered games. The side games have issues but they're mostly ok. This is the first one I just had a lot of issues with

---
There's a difference between canon and not-stupid.
TopicVideo games should be covered by the 1A... But...
RetuenOfDevsman
05/08/24 9:00:28 PM
#15
[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

KH Birth by Sleep.

It's a super boss, but even so.

He also just generally one hit kills you without special abilities that rescue you from it. It's a pain in the ass battle, but really the whole game was kind of a pain in the ass.

---
There's a difference between canon and not-stupid.
TopicVideo games should be covered by the 1A... But...
RetuenOfDevsman
05/08/24 8:40:00 PM
#12
[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

At a point, though, it doesn't work anymore.

I'm working on fighting a boss right now that hits you with a move that has little telegraph and makes you rapid tap to avoid one hit killing you. And no, no abilities can prevent it, even the ones that are specifically purposed to let you survive instant death moves. And it's fast. Like, I dunno, I don't count because I'm furiously tapping as fast as I can but it's definitely at least five taps a second the first time he does it and faster every time. I have managed to survive it twice on a couple of runs but if he casts it a third time, I'm convinced it's impossible.

Where exactly the cutoff for too fast would be, I have no idea. It's probably subjective. I'd rather they just stop doing it entirely.

---
There's a difference between canon and not-stupid.
TopicFinal Fantasy Tactics Advance...Good game or nah?
RetuenOfDevsman
05/08/24 8:33:21 PM
#32
HighSeraph posted...
Too bad you don't tho
Heeeeeeeeere we go lol

---
There's a difference between canon and not-stupid.
TopicHoly shit my dad got me a book of Dad jokes for my birthday.
RetuenOfDevsman
05/08/24 8:31:13 PM
#111
Day 27:

What do you call a pig that does karate?

A pork chop!

7/10, not bad.

---
There's a difference between canon and not-stupid.
TopicFinal Fantasy Tactics Advance...Good game or nah?
RetuenOfDevsman
05/08/24 8:10:12 PM
#25
Eh.

A tad difficult for my tastes but not crazy.
Stupidly repetitive when it comes to the side missions.
Gameplay and story were fine though. I didn't mind the law system at all.

---
There's a difference between canon and not-stupid.
TopicWould you live on A Houseboat?
RetuenOfDevsman
05/08/24 8:04:23 PM
#8
I guess if there's a way to work out getting electricity onboard, or if it were just for a weekend with Mrs. Devsman, but no way in hell am I gonna take up permanent residence anywhere without a PC.

---
There's a difference between canon and not-stupid.
TopicYou owe Nintendo a apology
RetuenOfDevsman
05/08/24 7:57:26 PM
#24
I only have two gripes with Ninten:

1. Their pricing has been stupid af for more than a decade.

2. Stubborn refusal to port anything ever.

Otherwise, they've always done great work.

---
There's a difference between canon and not-stupid.
TopicSomeone is going to have to explain the concept of rules of war to me.
RetuenOfDevsman
05/08/24 7:54:48 PM
#9
IdiotMachine posted...
Philosophers, like Hobbes, believe war is necessary and is part of nature; other philosophers, like Clausewitz, believes that war only exists as states and politics exists. This leads to the just war doctrine, which states that war is morally justifiable (i.e., in some situations, war is not always the worst option). History has also shown that war is inevitable, with countless that get killed on both sides of a conflict.

Given that, and the belief in utilitarianism, the best way to come out ahead on a terrible tragedy of war is to reduce the total amount of suffering and maximize the total amount of happiness. How do you do that? By limiting what can be done during a war. This is the basis of the rules of war; some forms of rules have been in effect for thousands of years, to ensure civility between the two sides, and to ensure humanity doesn't go scorched earth, since that just hurts both sides.

Practically, who polices these rules of war? States can accuse other states of war crimes and invoke the international courts, most commonly known to be a part of the United Nations. Based on the gravity of the situation, many consequences could be faced by the member state, up to and including ejection from the UN and the lack of diplomacy and help from others (as well as punitive measures, like blockades).

But what if the five permanent members (e.g., US, UK, China, Russia, France) commits war crimes? Well the other member states will just denounce the crimes and everyone will just go about their day/business, since you can't really punish the big five. Part of this unfairness was also what lead to the dissolution of the League of Nations and to the start of WWII... so if the five members go crazy, maybe we'll have another WWIII and a dissolution of the UN.
Good explanation, thanks!

---
There's a difference between canon and not-stupid.
TopicCan popes be impeached?
RetuenOfDevsman
05/08/24 7:46:31 PM
#5
And they can make a cover of Blitzkrieg Bop that swaps out the lyrics so it's Papal Pop.

---
There's a difference between canon and not-stupid.
TopicCan popes be impeached?
RetuenOfDevsman
05/08/24 7:43:18 PM
#4
The term probably isn't impoped, but it should be.

Or better yet, popped. The Pope was popped. They popped the pope. I like it.

---
There's a difference between canon and not-stupid.
TopicEvery country has at least two cows
RetuenOfDevsman
05/08/24 7:39:24 PM
#9
I don't buy it. I'm gonna need to see evidence that there are cows in, say, The Vatican, St. Vincent and the Grenadines and Congo, just to name a couple that I'm skeptical about. I can probably come up with a lot more if I thought about it.

---
There's a difference between canon and not-stupid.
TopicI don't really know Tails that well. Why does CE hate him so much?
RetuenOfDevsman
05/08/24 7:36:45 PM
#90
He's just annoying and has a bad voice and AI, an--

I uh... I guess we're not talking about THAT Tails.

---
There's a difference between canon and not-stupid.
TopicSomeone is going to have to explain the concept of rules of war to me.
RetuenOfDevsman
05/08/24 7:28:20 PM
#1
Seems to me, war is by definition breaking probably the most important rule there is. Like, if a thing is going to have rules, and "don't kill a million people so you can steal their land" isn't implicitly a rule, you shouldn't have bothered. It's the rule so obvious it generally goes without saying.

Furthermore, what then? Suppose somebody breaks one of these so-called rules of war. What is the recourse, or consequence? You gonna kill him? You were already going to kill him. You going to arrest him INSTEAD of killing him? That's just incentive for him to break the rules.

This is a thing my brain just cannot at all process. One of many such things, as you my good friends here at CE may have discovered.

---
There's a difference between canon and not-stupid.
TopicDonald J Trump takes over as the protagonist of the last game you played
RetuenOfDevsman
05/08/24 2:46:29 PM
#53
KH BbS

He'd do marvelously as Terra, actually.

He starts off thinking he's doing the right thing, but gets manipulated and in the end literally becomes the bad guy.

He even has a "very fine people on both sides" phase, lol

Trump would just skip all the nonsense and go straight to being the bad guy.

---
There's a difference between canon and not-stupid.
TopicWould you rather be the world's only attractive person or the world's only ugly?
RetuenOfDevsman
05/08/24 11:50:12 AM
#14
Solar_Crimson posted...
Wasn't the first one (only attractive person) essentially a Twilight Zone episode? Basically, beauty standards were so skewed that what we see as beauty was actually seen as ugly and repulsive in that world, and the surgery that the main character tried to get to "beautify" themselves failed when they came out looking like a regular, attractive by our standards person.
Yeah

But suppose that effect weren't a thing. Suppose everyone would agree that you were the world's only attractive/ugly person.

---
There's a difference between canon and not-stupid.
TopicWhich is worse? Prequel Trilogy or Sequel Trilogy >_>
RetuenOfDevsman
05/08/24 11:45:45 AM
#60
stormtrooper634 posted...
The Force Awakens was such a disappointment. A lot of folks wanted more Star Wars and what we got was mostly fan service rehashing of old plots and characters. It only went down hill from there.
No, it was the right call for sure. Prequel backlash was, at the time, roughly what sequel backlash is now.

---
There's a difference between canon and not-stupid.
TopicWhich is worse? Prequel Trilogy or Sequel Trilogy >_>
RetuenOfDevsman
05/08/24 11:02:51 AM
#54
Now, I know I said the PT was worse, but I do have to give credit where it's due:

The worst character in the entire series of nine main films plus Solo and Rogue One is, without question, Episode 9 C3P0.

I don't know how it happened--this has never happened to me before or since--but I legit got to a point with this fictional character that my irritation/disgust actually became physical and that flare of rage deep in the pit of my stomach started coming up.

---
There's a difference between canon and not-stupid.
TopicWhich is worse? Prequel Trilogy or Sequel Trilogy >_>
RetuenOfDevsman
05/08/24 10:50:21 AM
#47
Prequel trilogy is way worse. Anyone who says otherwise just hasn't seen Episode 2 lately.

South in space
Sand
Sonic weaponry in space
It's all Obi-Wan's faulthe's jealous
Pretending to die
Flowers
R2D2 FLIES NOW?!
Good thing somebody we don't know just happened to be building an army of clones to fight a battle we didn't know was coming and Obi-Wan just happened to stumble up on it within minutes of it being needed
Be patient and rational Anakin, now excuse me while I jump out the thousandth floor window
Monster disarms a Jedi by hitting his lightsaber with its horn

It's really a complete trainwreck of a film.

---
There's a difference between canon and not-stupid.
TopicI can't believe the Ford F150 is the US best selling vehicle for 42 years.
RetuenOfDevsman
05/08/24 10:42:04 AM
#5
It's all the Boomers who still think American products are worth a damn.

---
There's a difference between canon and not-stupid.
TopicWatch, CE, as my Mega Man addiction reaches a new low.
RetuenOfDevsman
05/08/24 10:38:22 AM
#1
I keep thinking I have hit rock bottom. And I keep surprising myself.

*begins reading the novelization of the manga adaptation of the spinoff Mega Man X*

---
There's a difference between canon and not-stupid.
TopicMan, I've had a great month retro game hunting
RetuenOfDevsman
05/08/24 10:28:54 AM
#42
The dumb thing about thrift stores where I live is that people actually see value in the same stuff I do, so either they don't give it away in the first place or someone else swoops in and buys it in minutes.

Where I used to live, there was a whole section of "I dunno some kind of cable" items that I could peruse and go OOO A CABLE COMPANY COAX SPLITTER FOR ONLY FIFTY CENTS!!! YOU CAN'T BUY THESE IN STORES, YOU KNOW. THE ONES THEY SELL THAT HAVE THE GOLD COLORED CONNECTORS ARE AWFUL FOR SIGNAL QUALITY!!!

But here, anyone who has such a treasure isn't giving it away and anyone who stumbles upon some is buying the lot of them immediately.

---
There's a difference between canon and not-stupid.
TopicSony is trying to kill Helldivers 2 with the PS account requirement on Steam.
RetuenOfDevsman
05/08/24 10:20:36 AM
#300
ROBANN_88 posted...
Considering that you haven't even looked at the game enough to know it's multiplayer, why are you even here?

RetuenOfDevsman posted...
there is something interesting being said about them


---
There's a difference between canon and not-stupid.
TopicAnother pet peeve: Chocolate chocolate chocolate
RetuenOfDevsman
05/08/24 10:19:03 AM
#6
Giant_Aspirin posted...
each of those components provides a different texture. like, i'm not big on chocolate either and would never order a double chocolate cookie or anything, but the chips within the cookie definitely serve a purpose.
Sure.

It's still peak lol though.

---
There's a difference between canon and not-stupid.
TopicSony is trying to kill Helldivers 2 with the PS account requirement on Steam.
RetuenOfDevsman
05/08/24 10:13:26 AM
#298
Karovorak posted...
Now you lost me because you don't make any sense at all.

Wtf are you even talking about now?

dave_is_slick posted...
Again, what?
Well, I can't tell what is confusing you. If you can't play because other people didn't buy it, it must be multiplayer.

Or if it's the thing about hating yourself that's confusing you, I mean, multiplayer is garbage. From matchmaking that sucks to unbalanced P2W shit to unbalanced not P2W shit, to asshat opponents, to waiting for a match, to the possibility of being denied a rematch, gracious, how can you play it if you don't hate yourself?

Or--and this just came to me--if it's the part where I don't know whether the game is multiplayer, that's because I live under a rock and don't actually read any gaming publications, and don't tend to click on topics about games I've never heard of unless, as in this case, there is something interesting being said about them. An announcement does not count as interesting in my book.

---
There's a difference between canon and not-stupid.
TopicAnother pet peeve of mine: Samey fantasy universes
RetuenOfDevsman
05/08/24 10:07:14 AM
#31
Heineken14 posted...
...but THAT is following a rule. That you have to have a magic lamp with a genie for the magic to occur. It's just a different rule that you seem to not mind. Also, it's pretty well established that genies are always handing out rules on what can and cannot be wished for.

Murphiroth posted...
Oh wow I missed that TC used a genie in a lamp as an example of magic with no rules when it's one of the most rule based pieces of magic lmao
That's not really what I meant. I am a bad communicator. The genie has story limitations instead of world limitations. It's hard to explain. Like, at the end of Aladdin when the genie is free, he can do whatever the hell he wants. So it's not a limitation of magic itself, but of the way the story is told.

Don't you dare bring up Return of Jafar btw

---
There's a difference between canon and not-stupid.
TopicAnother pet peeve: Chocolate chocolate chocolate
RetuenOfDevsman
05/08/24 10:01:13 AM
#4
nekrodev posted...
Do you also get upset when something has multiple kinds of cheese?
Well, I do find it a little ridiculous when "four cheese" is presented as a selling point, since it doesn't specify what the cheeses are unless you read the fine print (if that's even an option). But that's pretty specific.

If we were trying to draw a parallel with cheese, it would be more like a block of cheddar with a slice of cheddar on top, covered in cheddar cheese sauce.

You do, for example, have the occasional dessert with one part being white chocolate and another part being dark, for example, but what I'm talking about is more the type of thing where it's just "chocolate", as in they choose either dark or milk and don't tell you which, and everything is that particular flavor. (Except the cake, that is, because "chocolate cake" is a misnomer. But that's its own rant.)

---
There's a difference between canon and not-stupid.
TopicAnother pet peeve of mine: Samey fantasy universes
RetuenOfDevsman
05/08/24 9:45:04 AM
#26
tri-sapphire posted...
does things differently compared to most fantasy stories.
This right here, is exactly what I'm getting at. This phrase should be a total head scratcher.

GeraldDarko posted...
Should authors be pulling out woulds unlike anything ever seen or written about from their heads?
It's kind of like pointing out that sci-fi alway mirrors modern technology, and not some new technology no author or scientist has ever thought of.
It's not that they necessarily should be in a different dimension where up is down, down is left and left is yellow. Like, make it a ziggurat instead of a castle for Pete's sake.

Now before everyone misses the point and digs up some fantasy story that REALLY DID have a ziggurat, look, you'd do a lot better with a word cloud chart of all the places where rules live. I wanna see any word other than "castle" be, say half as large as "castle."

---
There's a difference between canon and not-stupid.
TopicAnother pet peeve: Chocolate chocolate chocolate
RetuenOfDevsman
05/08/24 9:14:34 AM
#1
Triple chocolate
Quadruple chocolate
Septadecuple chocolate

Chocolate cake with chocolate chips, chocolate frosting, chocolate drizzle, served with a chocolate spoon, on a chocolate plate, on a chocolate table, and you're sitting in a chocolate chair.

---
There's a difference between canon and not-stupid.
TopicAnother pet peeve of mine: Samey fantasy universes
RetuenOfDevsman
05/08/24 9:04:43 AM
#18
tri-sapphire posted...
No, but it does completely invalidate your point about magic systems, as LotR didn't really have one. Or European castles for that matter, as the architecture was much more grandiose and fantastic than that...or even any European towns even...not to mention that unique weapons are as old as fucking Gilgamesh.

Again, your topic is moot and dead.
Pack it up boys

There are no samey fantasy universes because tri-sapphire read Lord of the Rings and confirms I got some details wrong.

---
There's a difference between canon and not-stupid.
TopicAnother pet peeve of mine: Samey fantasy universes
RetuenOfDevsman
05/08/24 8:56:13 AM
#12
tri-sapphire posted...
So, TC just admitted to never reading Lord of the Rings in this post. /topic?
I never read Lord of the Rings. If it didn't actually do these things, then I guess I was mistaken.

Does this change the fact that high fantasy has an extremely limited set of tropes that it hardly ever deviates from? Or that it should be by far the most diverse genre?

---
There's a difference between canon and not-stupid.
TopicAnother pet peeve of mine: Samey fantasy universes
RetuenOfDevsman
05/08/24 8:52:45 AM
#11
tri-sapphire posted...
Why do so many sci-fi books focus on robots and space travel? From Earth to the Moon was 150+ years ago people, and like, Philip K. Dick completely covered everything to do with robots even remotely possible.
You do at least have a number of sci-fi subgenres though. Space Fantasy and robotic uprising/utopia are common ones, but so are cyberpunk, monsters/aliens, biohazards, doomsday devices and deep sea exploration.

---
There's a difference between canon and not-stupid.
TopicAnother pet peeve of mine: Samey fantasy universes
RetuenOfDevsman
05/08/24 8:41:15 AM
#8
specialkid8 posted...
huh?
You know, like consuming weird little glowing crystals or corrupting your soul or being physically strenuous. Following rules.

It's magic! It shouldn't have to follow rules. That's what defines magic. The genie of the lamp, for example, just does whatever the hell is wished of him without observing conservation of energy or getting tired.

Sure, there's no reason you can't come up with a system for how it works. But you don't have to. It's just that Lord of the Rings did and everyone just copy/pastes that.

---
There's a difference between canon and not-stupid.
TopicAnother pet peeve of mine: Samey fantasy universes
RetuenOfDevsman
05/08/24 8:34:45 AM
#5
Tanthalas posted...
But I like all of those.
Sure. I do too. It was cool about a hundred years ago when it first got published. It's the literal thousands of literal copy/pastes how little deviation from the exact formula there is in high fantasy that makes me sad.

---
There's a difference between canon and not-stupid.
TopicAnother pet peeve of mine: Samey fantasy universes
RetuenOfDevsman
05/08/24 8:26:08 AM
#1
It shouldn't be possible. Fantasy universes are literally universes that can be literally anything.

But

European castles
European towns
Wizards, dragons
Magic that for some reason follows rules
Unique swords with names and a vague hint that they have some sort of will

Lord of the Rings was good. It's true. Can we PLEASE stop ripping it off now?

---
There's a difference between canon and not-stupid.
TopicLooks Like Many Chinese Men Are Not Looking to Get Married or Have Kids
RetuenOfDevsman
05/08/24 12:55:47 AM
#6
Kai_Laguna posted...
Given that children are the only retirement plan outside of just getting ridiculously rich, it's a pretty good bet most of these people aren't willingly avoiding marriage and having kids.
On the other hand, not having kids is easily the best get rich quick scheme.

---
There's a difference between canon and not-stupid.
Board List
Page List: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 60