| Board List | |
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| Topic | Minimum wage largely unenforced in US |
| Mike_Stanton 02/20/18 8:42:35 PM #50 | averagejoel posted... which does not fit the category "socialist states that weren't undermined by the US, Britain, or France" How was Greece undermined by the US, Britain, or France specifically? Also, how was Venezuela undermined by those countries? Even if you do want to blame those other countries, if socialism is so great then why can't its adherents ever overcome the influence of less socialist nations, hmmmm? averagejoel posted... I also never claimed that other countries were somehow entirely responsible for their collapse. Good. So socialism itself was at least partially responsible. It's almost as if giving people things regardless of the work they do is counterproductive. It's almost as if governments can't be trusted to redistribute wealth or have centrally planned economies. averagejoel posted... https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority An economist isn't an authority on economics? Okay, thanks for telling me that... --- RIP Butters_1188 2005-2009 Prove me wrong |
| Topic | Minimum wage largely unenforced in US |
| Mike_Stanton 02/20/18 6:46:00 PM #47 | averagejoel posted... first give some examples of socialist states that weren't undermined by the US, Britain, or France. I'll wait I already named Greece. Either way, you've yet to prove that other countries are somehow entirely responsible for the collapse of these countries. averagejoel posted... the trustworthiness of one source is independent of the trustworthiness of any other source. there's no need to attack me just because I point out that information might not be accurate if it's from a school in the stronghold of capitalism So some actual economists who support capitalism vs. some random on the internet who supports socialism. --- RIP Butters_1188 2005-2009 Prove me wrong |
| Topic | C/D: Criminals don't obey laws, therefore everything should be legal |
| Mike_Stanton 02/19/18 8:39:27 PM #15 | I agree that gun laws will make it more difficult to find a gun, but since guns are both a method for malice and self-defense, there really wouldn't be any effect on crime or homicide even if it does reduce "gun violence." --- RIP Butters_1188 2005-2009 Prove me wrong |
| Topic | Minimum wage largely unenforced in US |
| Mike_Stanton 02/19/18 8:18:35 PM #43 | averagejoel posted... yes, three perfectly random countries that just happened to have been turned inside-out by the US, but obviously socialism is to blame for their shortcomings So Greece was turned inside-out by the US? How about you name some examples of socialism working instead of excusing all the times that it didn't work. averagejoel posted... I'm sure an essay on a site from a university in the middle of Silicon Valley has a balanced, trustworthy take on productivity under socialism I'm sure a socialist on the internet has a balanced, trustworthy take on productivity under socialism... --- RIP Butters_1188 2005-2009 Prove me wrong |
| Topic | Minimum wage largely unenforced in US |
| Mike_Stanton 02/19/18 7:18:24 PM #41 | averagejoel posted... that conclusion does not follow from that premise True. Examples from Greece, Venezuela, and Cuba help to support that conclusion as well. averagejoel posted... so the massive arms race due to the threat of nuclear war from the US, coupled with the economic burdens of supporting their allies (who were placed under brutal sanctions by the US), had nothing to do with their collapse? Possibly, but... There were many economic problems for the Soviet Stalinist system. One very general problem was the lack of incentives for productivity. As anonymous Soviet citizen said They pretend to pay us and we pretend to work. The Russian economist, Grigory Yavlinsky, who ultimately became an important advisor to Mikhail Gorbachev, became convinced to the need for reform when he investigated the low productivity in the Soviet mines. He found the miners were not working because they had no incentives to work. Said Yavlinsky The Soviet system is not working because the workers are not working. But there were more immediate causes for the collapse. In the middle 1980's about seventy percent of the industrial output of the Soviet Union was going to the military. Oleg Gordievsky, a KGB official who defected to Britain, asserted that at least one third of the total output was going to the military. British intelligence could not believe such a high figure but later Western intelligence sources estimated that it was at least fifty percent. One can only imagine what severe shortages of industrial goods there were for the rest of the economy. www.sjsu.edu/faculty/watkins/sovietcollapse.htm Socialism reduces worker incentives? What a novel concept! --- RIP Butters_1188 2005-2009 Prove me wrong |
| Topic | Minimum wage largely unenforced in US |
| Mike_Stanton 02/19/18 6:56:12 PM #38 | averagejoel posted... ok. none of them are actually socialist, so this is meaningless The fact that France and Italy have more socialist elements with less success shows that socialist policies lead to worse results. averagejoel posted... uhthey won the space race without absolving nazis of crimes against humanity? And then they collapsed under their own weight due to the failures of central planning. --- RIP Butters_1188 2005-2009 Prove me wrong |
| Topic | Minimum wage largely unenforced in US |
| Mike_Stanton 02/19/18 12:23:55 AM #36 | averagejoel posted... prosperity in Europe predates capitalism bud Read up on the history of Sweden. Capitalist reforms were made in the late 19th century, which caused it to go from being one of the poorest countries in Europe to being one of the richest. Ever since they've implemented more elements of socialism they've had less GDP growth. averagejoel posted... and again, they're not actually socialist France and Italy have more elements of socialism than Sweden. averagejoel posted... also keep in mind that Russia went from Feudalism in 1917 to World Superpower in 1945 Uh huh...and then what happened? --- RIP Butters_1188 2005-2009 Prove me wrong |
| Topic | Minimum wage largely unenforced in US |
| Mike_Stanton 02/18/18 12:51:00 PM #32 | ScazarMeltex posted... averagejoel posted...Mike_Stanton posted...justaguy3492 posted...Romes187 posted...If employers aren't paying their employees what was promised, then they should be heavily fined Sweden and Denmark originally became prosperous under capitalism and have actually had less growth since making socialist reforms. --- RIP Butters_1188 2005-2009 Prove me wrong |
| Topic | Minimum wage largely unenforced in US |
| Mike_Stanton 02/18/18 11:19:13 AM #15 | justaguy3492 posted... Romes187 posted...If employers aren't paying their employees what was promised, then they should be heavily fined Oh right. I forgot about how Venezuela, Italy, Greece, France, Soviet Russia, India, and Cuba proved that socialism is the proven system that works. --- RIP Butters_1188 2005-2009 Prove me wrong |
| Topic | Minimum wage largely unenforced in US |
| Mike_Stanton 02/18/18 11:01:57 AM #7 | So some employers are taking the initiative to make sure that even low skilled people can do some kind of work? Good for them. --- RIP Butters_1188 2005-2009 Prove me wrong |
| Topic | Is it racist to hate poor people? |
| Mike_Stanton 02/16/18 8:06:06 AM #1 | asking for a friend --- RIP Butters_1188 2005-2009 Prove me wrong |
| Topic | "Socialists just want to stay home, and play video games all day" |
| Mike_Stanton 02/14/18 3:29:35 PM #31 | lightwarrior78 posted... An exaggeration for sure, but, yes, I think people gravitate to socialism out of a belief that it will benefit them in the vein of more stuff for the same or less work and not the belief that a central government is the most efficient user and distributor of resources. You can say what it is all you want, but people love it for what they think it does. The fact it's a system that could kick them as hard as a capitalistic one if it was deemed for the hood of the state doesn't register. They just see social spending. Pretty much this. Socialists buy into the propaganda that "everyone owns everything!" without taking into account that it's really the government who owns everything while sitting on its high throne looking down on everyone else. --- RIP Butters_1188 2005-2009 Prove me wrong |
| Topic | "Socialists just want to stay home, and play video games all day" |
| Mike_Stanton 02/14/18 3:27:33 PM #30 | averagejoel posted... Mike_Stanton posted...averagejoel posted...Romulox28 posted...Genocet1 posted...Romulox28 posted...thats kind of the endgame of socialism though, fully automated society where all your needs are provided and there's no incentive to work more than you have to, basically the NEET dream hahahahaha! Making strategic decisions about the direction that the company goes in doesn't contribute to the production of any goods. They handle significantly more responsibilities than your average burger flipper. That's a fact. --- RIP Butters_1188 2005-2009 Prove me wrong |
| Topic | "Socialists just want to stay home, and play video games all day" |
| Mike_Stanton 02/14/18 2:58:19 PM #26 | averagejoel posted... Romulox28 posted...Genocet1 posted...Romulox28 posted...thats kind of the endgame of socialism though, fully automated society where all your needs are provided and there's no incentive to work more than you have to, basically the NEET dream CEOs don't do any work lol --- RIP Butters_1188 2005-2009 Prove me wrong |
| Topic | What was so evil about the Confederacy again? |
| Mike_Stanton 02/14/18 1:31:15 AM #43 | cerealbox760 posted... Mike_Stanton posted...So the South just wanted more freedom.. No, freedom to not be part of the union. Garioshi posted... Mike_Stanton posted...No, the founders were fighting for freedom. Communism is the opposite of freedom because it literally makes one a slave to the government. Communism is inherently unfree, so they weren't fighting for freedom. --- RIP Butters_1188 2005-2009 Prove me wrong |
| Topic | What was so evil about the Confederacy again? |
| Mike_Stanton 02/14/18 12:59:53 AM #36 | boxington posted... for a select group of people. Back then the idea of all races being equal was too advanced. You might as well criticize the founders for not knowing how to use a computer. --- RIP Butters_1188 2005-2009 Prove me wrong |
| Topic | What was so evil about the Confederacy again? |
| Mike_Stanton 02/14/18 12:53:55 AM #30 | Dash_Harber posted... Skye Reynolds posted...Mike_Stanton posted...they owned slaves not what the war was about ChainedRedone posted... ITT if you think slavery is evil, you hate America No, if you think the founders of this country were evil then you hate America. Garioshi posted... Mike_Stanton posted...If you would have sided with the North in the Civil War then you also would have sided with the Brits during the Revolutionary War. No, the founders were fighting for freedom. Communism is the opposite of freedom because it literally makes one a slave to the government. --- RIP Butters_1188 2005-2009 Prove me wrong |
| Topic | What was so evil about the Confederacy again? |
| Mike_Stanton 02/14/18 12:19:07 AM #14 | medzz posted... by the end of the war the CSA had less freedom That's because they lost. --- RIP Butters_1188 2005-2009 Prove me wrong |
| Topic | What was so evil about the Confederacy again? |
| Mike_Stanton 02/14/18 12:16:58 AM #10 | boxington posted... Mike_Stanton posted...Skye Reynolds posted...Mike_Stanton posted...they owned slaves So you hate America? --- RIP Butters_1188 2005-2009 Prove me wrong |
| Topic | What was so evil about the Confederacy again? |
| Mike_Stanton 02/14/18 12:14:19 AM #6 | Skye Reynolds posted... Mike_Stanton posted...they owned slaves So the Founding Fathers were evil too? Okay, got it! --- RIP Butters_1188 2005-2009 Prove me wrong |
| Topic | What was so evil about the Confederacy again? |
| Mike_Stanton 02/14/18 12:12:10 AM #1 | Sure, they owned slaves, but so did the Founding Fathers. Do you really think the North was about civil rights? haha nope...the only reason they had fewer slaves was because they had more factories to produce things, and the only reason they even went to war was to maintain the union. So the South just wanted more freedom...just like how the Founding Fathers wanted freedom from the Brits. If you would have sided with the North in the Civil War then you also would have sided with the Brits during the Revolutionary War. EDIT: Yes, I (Butters) will probably get called a racist for this, but it will only show people's poor reading comprehension. --- RIP Butters_1188 2005-2009 Prove me wrong |
| Topic | Should I BREAK my LEG on purpose to be in a CAST so I can get a SPONGE BATH... |
| Mike_Stanton 02/13/18 11:41:41 PM #8 | Cornmuffins posted... chill02 posted...SaccharineSmile posted...BREAK LEG CAST SPONGE BATH --- RIP Butters_1188 2005-2009 Prove me wrong |
| Topic | Trump administration wants to dictate what kind of food poor people eat |
| Mike_Stanton 02/13/18 10:28:21 AM #242 | The party of less government. --- RIP Butters_1188 2005-2009 Prove me wrong |
| Topic | Should "whose alt?" and other alt accusations be modded as an insult? |
| Mike_Stanton 01/29/18 10:08:37 PM #14 | Zikten posted... some people think that if someone says something they don't like, that person is a troll. and if they don't recognize the name, their brain just comes to the conclusion that it must be an alt of some "troll" they know The only logical conclusion is that every troll account is an alt account of the same person. --- RIP Butters_1188 2005-2009 Prove me wrong |
| Topic | Remember how much class the Obamas had? |
| Mike_Stanton 01/29/18 3:01:40 PM #28 | AsianFury2020 posted... Sandwiched between Bush2 and Trump... Obama is the greatest president of all time easily. Bill Clinton>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Barack Hussein Obama --- RIP Butters_1188 2005-2009 Prove me wrong |
| Topic | Missing CEmen? |
| Mike_Stanton 01/29/18 1:10:16 AM #72 | FL81 posted... 3deep5u posted...I regret not putting (butters) in the topic title now Showing me (Butters) the respect that I (Butters) deserve. Great topic! --- RIP Butters_1188 2005-2009 Prove me wrong |
| Topic | ITT, you (attempt to) explain why taxation isn't theft... |
| Mike_Stanton 01/19/18 6:16:10 AM #207 | hockeybub89 posted... Curious how pretty much all the lowest taxed countries are shitholes. Curious indeed. So the US is a shithole? As for a list of countries that has mostly shithole countries, try this one... http://www.businessinsider.com/wef-countries-with-the-highest-tax-rates-2016-9/ And here's the lowest taxed countries... http://www.businessinsider.com/wef-countries-with-the-lowest-tax-rates-in-the-world-2015-10/ And here's the wealthiest countries in the world... https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/the-richest-countries-in-the-world.html I'll let you look at those lists and then you can tell me if you see a correlation between higher taxes and more prosperity...oh and if you happen to notice the opposite you can feel free to say so as well. --- RIP Butters_1188 2005-2009 Prove me wrong |
| Topic | ITT, you (attempt to) explain why taxation isn't theft... |
| Mike_Stanton 01/19/18 4:51:54 AM #204 | EnragedSlith posted... You guys spent 200 messages arguing with someone who asked a rhetorical question. There was never a debate here, he just wanted an excuse to pontificate and further cement that libertarians are dingdongs Actually, the reason they're still arguing with me is because they're still attempting to explain why taxation isn't theft. --- RIP Butters_1188 2005-2009 Prove me wrong |
| Topic | ITT, you (attempt to) explain why taxation isn't theft... |
| Mike_Stanton 01/19/18 4:36:39 AM #202 | cerealbox760 posted... you choose to pay taxes because you decided to live here. next time dont hand over your money because you are more than free to leave. You dont have to be 'slave' if you dont want to. I hear africa and most of the middle east are low taxation regions. So you were okay with blacks being slaves in this country? They can always run away to a different place...Or how about the woman suffrage? Women chose not to vote because they chose to live here. If they wanted the right to vote they can go to some country that does honor their rights, etc. Btw, income taxes aren't the price of living here, but rather the price of working here. Why? Because people who simply live here, but don't work aren't required to pay taxes. Instead you pay taxes according to how much work you did. --- RIP Butters_1188 2005-2009 Prove me wrong |
| Topic | ITT, you (attempt to) explain why taxation isn't theft... |
| Mike_Stanton 01/19/18 2:29:57 AM #199 | Questionmarktarius posted... Conservative: taxes are a necessary evil QFT iClockwork posted... Mike_Stanton posted...Debt comes from the government borrowing money. If they weren't chronic borrowers they wouldn't need to depend on robbing Peter to pay Paul just to reduce their debt. I'd say people who work for the government still have it pretty good as far as how much of our tax dollars go to their salaries and lifetime benefits. Yeah...they're profiting off of our work. --- RIP Butters_1188 2005-2009 Prove me wrong |
| Topic | ITT, you (attempt to) explain why taxation isn't theft... |
| Mike_Stanton 01/19/18 2:07:37 AM #194 | iClockwork posted... Mike_Stanton posted...The government Debt comes from the government borrowing money. If they weren't chronic borrowers they wouldn't need to depend on robbing Peter to pay Paul just to reduce their debt. --- RIP Butters_1188 2005-2009 Prove me wrong |
| Topic | ITT, you (attempt to) explain why taxation isn't theft... |
| Mike_Stanton 01/19/18 1:57:58 AM #191 | iClockwork posted... Mike_Stanton posted...Imagine thinking that someone profiting from your income isn't stealing. The government, along with the people the government buys votes from (people on welfare) to keep itself in power. I really don't know how people don't see something wrong with there being an entity who can say "the more money you and everyone else makes, the more you all have to give to me." --- RIP Butters_1188 2005-2009 Prove me wrong |
| Topic | ITT, you (attempt to) explain why taxation isn't theft... |
| Mike_Stanton 01/19/18 12:55:09 AM #188 | Rika_Furude posted... Havent bothered keeping up with this troll topic but i seriously hope theres nobody here who unironically believe taxes are theft. That is sovereign citizen/flat earth conspiracy theorist levels of crazy Imagine thinking that someone profiting from your income isn't stealing. Imagine not having any skepticism about what somebody needs your money for and not wondering why they can't raise money by letting people buy things voluntarily like any other kind of business. --- RIP Butters_1188 2005-2009 Prove me wrong |
| Topic | ITT, you (attempt to) explain why taxation isn't theft... |
| Mike_Stanton 01/17/18 11:04:58 PM #186 | nicklebro posted... Countries don't require borders? Lol I'm pretty sure they do. If you don't have borders than you have chaos. And I have no idea what you're referring to when you say "take advantage of others" or that people should "give up their earnings" since I've never proposed either of those things. lol okay...what I was referring to is that borders go around pieces of land. And you ARE advocating for people giving up their earnings, because that's literally what income taxes are. nicklebro posted... You're starting to sound like you're in favor of a fascist communist state. Someone who declares themselves as god and dictates each and every law people must follow while also snatching some people up to go and work as slave laborers while everyone else lives in a dystopian society where the dictator rules everything and charges citizens for every single thing they do, meanwhile there are no more "arbitrary borders" because there are no more nations, there is only the one globalist society where most people are forced to work to pay for the select few to live happy, work free lives and enjoy themselves. Actually, that's what YOU'RE suggesting, because you're the one saying the government should own everything that's produced on a piece of land. The opposite of that would be capitalism, not communism. lol holy shit, nickeldude...seriously. nicklebro posted... Pretty sure slave masters are supposed to benefit from the slave labor... But instead you're saying the ones that benefit are the poorest members of our society.... See how stupid that logic is when its actually full explained?Try again man. On second thought, don't. You mean the ones that don't work? Either way you spin in, it's turning people's work into the benefit of people who did not work. The fact that the government is the middle man makes it no different than if the government were just using taxes as a way to enrich itself (i.e. the original purpose of taxes). Dragonblade01 posted... So the government makes the slaves work for the slaves? I haven't seen that form of slavery before either. Not to mention one important thing: The government is also subservient to its charges. All of these organizations are made up of people, and all of those people are included in the "everybody" group that makes up these supposed slaves. No, people who do no work are the ones benefiting from those who did more work. Using the rationale that something is going to what one perceives as a good cause doesn't justify it. --- RIP Butters_1188 2005-2009 Prove me wrong |
| Topic | ITT, you (attempt to) explain why taxation isn't theft... |
| Mike_Stanton 01/17/18 11:04:20 PM #185 | nicklebro posted... No one declared themselves god at all. People that chose to form a society also came together and decided how they were going to govern themselves. No one declared themselves in charge and decided how they were going to govern everyone else. So the rest of your silly little rant has already been refuted. Uh...wtf? If people decided that others must do this and must do that, then they are deciding how to govern other people... nicklebro posted... Reduce incentives for what? To work? Lolno. Your access to government services in no way grants you access to everything you need, let alone everything you want. So the incentive to work and earn money remains the exact same. Which is why no one has been recruited to work against their will. Just like how no one has ever declared themselves god. hahahahahaha! Typical leftist not knowing basic economics. Of course taxes reduce incentives. Why do you think sales taxes are put on things like cigarettes and alcohol? To reduce incentives to buy those things. It doesn't stop people from drinking and smoking entirely, but it discourages the production and sale of those things. Similarly, the more free things people are entitled to, the less additional work they're going to be motivated to do especially when the work doesn't pay as much because of taxes. I'm fine with having to wait until I've earned enough money to buy health insurance, but if I had it for free regardless of how much work I did then I definitely would have at least a little less motivation to work harder. nicklebro posted... No of course they aren't done that way. Lol I mean toll booths are already annoying af, and you're saying it'd be better if every single street in America was like that, plus every utility and service is paid for in the same manner? Thank god no founding fathers were moronic enough to even consider that, let alone propose it as a legitimate alternative to taxes, which are a far better option. You were the one who said that the government should be the one to make our roads. There have been private roads before and they managed to maintain them without charging people excessively, much less a portion of people's income regardless of how much they used them. But you argued yourself into a corner by admitting that you don't have to pay taxes so long as you don't work. If someone can live here for free if they don't work then obviously living within these borders doesn't cost a dime. But rather, one's own labor costs them money. If one doesn't own their labor then that makes them a slave. Oh and, just an FYI, federal income taxes in this country didn't exist until after the Civil War, so the Founding Fathers WERE smart enough to agree with me. --- RIP Butters_1188 2005-2009 Prove me wrong |
| Topic | ITT, you (attempt to) explain why taxation isn't theft... |
| Mike_Stanton 01/17/18 7:15:22 PM #182 | Dragonblade01 posted... Mike_Stanton posted...Dragonblade01 posted...Mike_Stanton posted...Dragonblade01 posted...Why is it wrong for the government of a nation to require some amount of money from those who live within the nation? What it actually means is that the government is the slave master, because they're the ones making sure that the moochers benefit from the work done by non-moochers. --- RIP Butters_1188 2005-2009 Prove me wrong |
| Topic | ITT, you (attempt to) explain why taxation isn't theft... |
| Mike_Stanton 01/17/18 7:06:24 PM #181 | nicklebro posted... Wrong again. You aren't stripped of any rights before you're born because your rights are determined by the country you are born in, and then which country you are living. You are not automatically entitled to any set of rights before or after you're born, the country in which you reside determines the rights you have. All of which are determined before you are born (i.e. outside of your control). nicklebro posted... Just like when our parents used to say "if you're gonna live under my roof, you're gonna live by my rules!" Countries are the exact same way, except on a much grander scale. Except, countries only have jurisdiction over a piece of land, which is just a natural resource that we don't even need a country to live on. Nobody had to give up what they worked for on any piece of land until someone declared themselves God to say "anyone who works for something on this land from now on owes me money for the work that they did." "But why should anyone owe you anything, and what do you need my money for again?" "Because I'm letting you stay on this piece of land, and I need the money in order to keep making you give me what you produce on this land." "Then why don't you just stop making people pay to live on this land that you didn't even put here yourself in the first place?" "Because...well, uh...SHUT UP AND GIVE ME YOUR MONEY!!!!" nicklebro posted... You have a choice if you pay taxes. If you don't want to pay taxes, then simply don't have any income and don't have any property and don't ever purchase anything. But if you make the choice to do any of those, then you're accepting the terms of the deal which includes you contributing your fair share. So you admit that taxes reduce incentives? What if too many people stop working, knowing that they'll have just as much access to "government services" as anybody else? You can't have it both ways. If you want people to still be productive even when they don't want to work then the only other option is to recruit people to work against their will. nicklebro posted... And really, every time you walk or driveon a road, you are getting benefitting from other people's taxes. So unless you're also going to make sure you don't benefit from anything that's paid for by taxes, then it's not only justified but actually ethical to pay taxes. And yet, taxes aren't done that way are they? I mean, you yourself said that people can use roads for free if they don't work, right? It's almost like the government could have just charged a fee for service like every other kind of business. nicklebro posted... I mean the government is allowing you to live within their borders, which they are not inherently obligated to do, so why do you think it's ok to take advantage of the society you live in and benefit from the many things that are paid for by taxes without having to contribute your fair share? What makes you so much better and more entitled than everyone else? And why are you so selfish and self centered that you don't want to contribute to society anyways? The government didn't have to set some arbitrary borders in the first place. And you're the one wanting others to take advantage of others by saying that people should give up their earnings to somebody who didn't work (and therefore didn't have to pay to use any of these special services that you speak of). --- RIP Butters_1188 2005-2009 Prove me wrong |
| Topic | ITT, you (attempt to) explain why taxation isn't theft... |
| Mike_Stanton 01/17/18 4:35:34 AM #171 | Dragonblade01 posted... Mike_Stanton posted...Dragonblade01 posted...Why is it wrong for the government of a nation to require some amount of money from those who live within the nation? At least you're being open and honest about why you support taxes. Either way, forcing everybody to work for the benefit of everybody is forced labor, and therefore slavery. --- RIP Butters_1188 2005-2009 Prove me wrong |
| Topic | ITT, you (attempt to) explain why taxation isn't theft... |
| Mike_Stanton 01/17/18 4:07:13 AM #169 | Rika_Furude posted... you do. you can choose to stay and pay taxes, or choose to leave and not pay taxes. So black people's rights weren't being taken away then? They chose to stay in America (remain discriminated against) instead of leaving. --- RIP Butters_1188 2005-2009 Prove me wrong |
| Topic | ITT, you (attempt to) explain why taxation isn't theft... |
| Mike_Stanton 01/17/18 3:51:52 AM #167 | Rika_Furude posted... Mike_Stanton posted...Rika_Furude posted...Mike_Stanton posted... So you admit that I don't actually have a choice in paying taxes then? If that's the case then taxation is forcefully taking from me (i.e. theft). --- RIP Butters_1188 2005-2009 Prove me wrong |
| Topic | ITT, you (attempt to) explain why taxation isn't theft... |
| Mike_Stanton 01/17/18 1:29:48 AM #164 | Dragonblade01 posted... Why is it wrong for the government of a nation to require some amount of money from those who live within the nation? Because a "nation" is just a piece of land. We have limited land here on Earth, so telling people they have to pay to live in a country is telling them that they have to pay to walk on the Earth that we were all born on. --- RIP Butters_1188 2005-2009 Prove me wrong |
| Topic | ITT, you (attempt to) explain why taxation isn't theft... |
| Mike_Stanton 01/17/18 1:10:41 AM #162 | Rika_Furude posted... Mike_Stanton posted...Rika_Furude posted...Youre digging yourself deeper. Please provide a coherent argument. You cant say taxes are bad, government is bad, while at the same time saying you dont want anarchy and that you think civilisation is good. What you want is to live in some african tribe or in a cave or sonething I was born on this part of the earth into laws I couldn't have had any say in. Did black people choose to be victims of segregation because they chose to live in this country? --- RIP Butters_1188 2005-2009 Prove me wrong |
| Topic | ITT, you (attempt to) explain why taxation isn't theft... |
| Mike_Stanton 01/16/18 9:48:46 PM #160 | nicklebro posted... Mike_Stanton posted...nicklebro posted...So if the democratic process doesn't justify everything, that means it justifies nothing? I disagree. The reason slavery was and still is wrong, is because it violates the freedoms of the people it enslaves. I don't need to use the democratic process just to legitimize it. iClockwork posted... We're not paying to walk the earth or breath air. We pay taxes to fund services such as the ability to have sewage taken from our house or have clean water pumped in, to have safe and reliable roads for us to travel on. And yet, taxes aren't calculated on the basis of our usage of those things but rather... iClockwork posted... We pay taxes to take care of others less fortunate so they don't die in the street than us and to have LEO's keep our neighborhoods safe. We pay taxes to build libraries where we can go and learn or so that our children can obtain an education and become productive members of society. ...oh yeah, people I'm not obligated to help/things I might not even use. nicklebro posted... Plus, which patch of dirt you're on when you're born determines what rights you are granted. They different from country to country. And why? Because nations determine what rights it's citizens have And therein lies the problem. Our rights are stripped from us before we're even born without us having any control over it. --- RIP Butters_1188 2005-2009 Prove me wrong |
| Topic | ITT, you (attempt to) explain why taxation isn't theft... |
| Mike_Stanton 01/16/18 9:16:16 PM #159 | Rika_Furude posted... Youre digging yourself deeper. Please provide a coherent argument. You cant say taxes are bad, government is bad, while at the same time saying you dont want anarchy and that you think civilisation is good. What you want is to live in some african tribe or in a cave or sonething I've already explained how the government can operate, and fund its operations without stealing. --- RIP Butters_1188 2005-2009 Prove me wrong |
| Topic | ITT, you (attempt to) explain why taxation isn't theft... |
| Mike_Stanton 01/16/18 6:45:39 PM #152 | Rika_Furude posted... not an inherent right from birth. if we were living in anarchy like you desire, anyone could kill anyone else for any reason if it would help them survive better and they would be justified in doing do. in fact, they could kill them for no reason if they wanted I'm not an anarchist. Rika_Furude posted... i guess you're right that unrestrained freedom is something everyone loses in civilization. not that thats a bad thing though, not sure why you thought this was a good point to bring up. Because taking away people's unrestrained freedom even when they're not infringing on another's rights is, itself, a violation of their rights. Rika_Furude posted... which is good. civilization is good. nobody wants to be a caveman Agreed. Rika_Furude posted... this is some conspiracy theorist bullshit No it's not. Did you fall asleep in History class or something? --- RIP Butters_1188 2005-2009 Prove me wrong |
| Topic | ITT, you (attempt to) explain why taxation isn't theft... |
| Mike_Stanton 01/16/18 5:35:20 AM #107 | nicklebro posted... So if the democratic process doesn't justify everything, that means it justifies nothing? That's right. The democratic process never contributes to how ethical something is. The democratic process makes certain things possible that may have good or bad outcomes, but it's never the thing that justifies why something is good or bad. The process that abolished slavery yielded a good outcome, but I'm sure we can think of better reasons as to why freeing slaves is justified other than "because the government said so." --- RIP Butters_1188 2005-2009 Prove me wrong |
| Topic | ITT, you (attempt to) explain why taxation isn't theft... |
| Mike_Stanton 01/16/18 5:16:16 AM #104 | Dragonblade01 posted... Mike_Stanton posted...Dragonblade01 posted...Ultimately, we as a people choose what we do and do not tolerate. So this justifies taxing against everyone's will? There was a time when enough people tolerated slavery... Rika_Furude posted... Mike_Stanton posted...Anything that doesn't involve infringing on another's rights. The right to life, and the right to pursue happiness in ones own way for the most part. People began as a completely free race, until people abused their freedoms to interfere with other people's freedoms. Then we had government to enforce such laws. Then government corruption evolved when the government started abusing its governing powers to make itself an exception to its own laws. --- RIP Butters_1188 2005-2009 Prove me wrong |
| Topic | ITT, you (attempt to) explain why taxation isn't theft... |
| Mike_Stanton 01/16/18 5:01:24 AM #102 | nicklebro posted... No it doesn't justify anything that the government does k thanks...so the democratic process doesn't justify taking what belongs to someone else. gg nickelbro, as always whenever we bicker on whichever board ;) --- RIP Butters_1188 2005-2009 Prove me wrong |
| Topic | ITT, you (attempt to) explain why taxation isn't theft... |
| Mike_Stanton 01/16/18 4:51:17 AM #100 | Rika_Furude posted... what rights do you think you are inherently entitled to from birth? Anything that doesn't involve infringing on another's rights. Why should I be forced to do anything against my will? In fact, you have a right to give away to anything you consider to be a good cause if you choose to, so why not let everybody just do that at their own discretion? --- RIP Butters_1188 2005-2009 Prove me wrong |
| Topic | ITT, you (attempt to) explain why taxation isn't theft... |
| Mike_Stanton 01/16/18 3:51:06 AM #96 | Rika_Furude posted... Mike_Stanton posted...Rika_Furude posted...Mike_Stanton posted...Zero_Destroyer posted...You having a fringe viewpoint that you're oppressed by it doesn't validate your victim complex. If most people don't see it as theft and are actively affected by it, you have zero ground to stand on, because it absolutely means society has more or less collectively consented to the concept. Wrong. Rights can only ever be taken away by the government, since they're the ones who put restrictions on people. The only potential good that the government can do in that way is preventing people from infringing on other people's rights. The line should be drawn when the government starts making itself an exception to such infringements. --- RIP Butters_1188 2005-2009 Prove me wrong |
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