Lurker > KanzarisKelshen

Toon Link unless somebody gives me arguments otherwise.

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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Aku

This is a mercy rule stomp if I ever saw one.

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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

scarletspeed7 posted...

That's the sort of statement someone makes when they don't realize that Deathstroke has limited precognitive abilities and regenative healing, the sort that has repeatedly allowed him to defeat powerhouses like Lobo, Warrior and even hold his own with Black Adam, a being that would wipe Garnet away without a second thought.

The precognition Garnet has is absolutely matched by Deathstroke's.

No yeah, I do agree agree he has those capabilities

But Deathstroke taking down half the JLA's A-team and several of its best B-listers at once is very silly. He's consistently portrayed as being threatened in actual combat (so like, not outsmarted, not outteched, just fought) by peak humans and low metahumans. One has to calibrate characters to the median of their abilities to get a good sense of what they're capable of. Put Deathstroke up vs Flash in a 1v1 and we would all no-contest vote for Flash, for very good reasons. Know what I mean?

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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

scarletspeed7 posted...

Deathstroke has defeated the Flash, Green Lantern, Black Canary, Atom, Green Arrow, Hawkman and Zatanna at the same time. All he had was a plastic bag, his sword and a laser pointer.

That feat is a total outlier and not really indicative of Deathstroke's abilities normally. It'd be sort of like saying 'Donkey Kong is a planet buster!' because he punches the moon in DKCR, when his abilities at all other times are completely different. You get a better barometer for his skills by setting him at 'stronger than Batman, but still defeatable by solo Bats and Nightwing', really.

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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

So this is an interesting match. I don't think Garnet has issues with not being able to take down deathstroke. Being KO'd still counts as a victory, not just killing the opponent. My question is, how consistent is her future sight? Is it reflexive? Or does she have to focus for it?

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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

rwlh posted...

Whether it's metaphorical compared to the "real world" or not, the Meta World exists as a real thing by itself. There are different layers of reality in Umineko. There's the real world, then there's the Meta World on top of that, then there are other higher levels on top of that. The Meta World is metaphorical to the real world, as what happens in the Meta World is symbolic of what happens in the real world. However, the characters and events in the Meta World still happen in the Meta World.

Does that make sense? That seems less coherent in this post than it did in my head.

It makes sense to me that this fight doesn't happen in a metaphorical sense, but instead takes place in the equivalent of the Meta World. That's why I (and I think some others in this topic) have tried to figure out how Gregor fits in. Does he have to play by the rules of the Meta World, or can he circumvent things and just bulldoze Battler in a fit of strength? I decided the latter wouldn't work because Battler has offensive feats that seem to be above Gregor here, even if Gregor doesn't play by the rules.

Batman totally beats Battler imo. He's smarter and more logical than Battler and can easily adapt to whatever logic tricks Battler throws at him. Batman would've figured out the mystery of Umineko very quickly.

I agree with pretty much all of this. It also helps that if you set things at 'could Batman KO Battler through mundane methods', it's totally impossible to argue he couldn't. Gregor would, too, if he was alive, but he's not, soooooooo

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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Nobody spoil anything please. Let him see things at his own pace. Good luck with the game, MSG! It's my literal favorite game of all time and possibly the most revolutionary gaming experience I've ever had. The only tip I think you need is this: make a save at around 19:00 PM of Day 2. The game has a potential softlock that day which you can avert by rewinding to around that point and doing things a bit differently. For everything else, go nuts!

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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

To give an idea of why being able to prove one could kill Battler at the 'true reality' level is very important, this is what happens when he's killed at the meta level but not forced to concede:

https://imgur.com/a/ifG75Wa
https://imgur.com/a/dTmpgbo

And this is the kind of weaponry as his disposal:

https://imgur.com/a/5JMmu

He actually has a better version of it, even, in the Golden Longsword, which is used to dispatch a horde of creatures that consumed their worlds by being born. Basically if you can't prove you can kill Battler as a normie, you're going to lose to him. He'd fit in Broken tier if it wasn't for the fact he has resilience to supernatural means of being murdered but very little resistance to just being shanked with a knife or choked to death beyond being a reasonably fit japanese teen. Gregor is just uniquely ill-suited to fighting him because he has no choice but to be magical, which means he cannot oppose Battler well.

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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

No, debate isn't needed to make Battler's powers work. It's the other way around. Debate is how they are made not to work. Basically Umineko magic works on a refutation system. It exists until it's proven not to. If Gregor chooses not to prove Battler's magic is fake, welp, he's dealing with a being that can, for example, say 'I can launch a projectile that cannot possibly miss, cannot be dodged, and is instantly lethal' and make it so. Which means he'd have to ambush Battler to have a shot in hell and uh, good luck with that as an eight feet tall monster in armor.

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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

So there's two ways to think about this fight, and they aren't necessarily the ones MariaTaylor pitched. My thinking is, the events of Umineko are an eternal recurrence of trying to find the culprit behind a great tragedy. Simplifying things to an absurd degree, this is what they boil down to. All that transpires within it is an extension of this concept, playing out the search in various ways. So what we have here is a situation where another great tragedy is about to occur -- The Mountain murdering Battler, because he can get away with it and that's how things 'should' work in his world.

...Or should they? Is that how things 'should' work? After all, the Mountain is a fairly unrealistic lad. At the peak of his powers, he is an undead monstrosity, a thing that is preposterous and cannot exist in this world. Accepting that a dead man can kill a live one through posthumous action makes no sense. And thus, things get interesting. See, one of Battler's core abilities is to force his opposition to prove that they could kill him. If the Mountain cannot justify his ability to do so, well, that just doesn't fly. And how can he justify being able to do anything while being at the peak of his powers? 'Magic'. Which is a problem, because if you accept magic is real, then Battler's powers vastly dwarf Gregor's. But if you don't accept magic is real, Gregor can't fight, because he's dead. So basically, to justify voting for Gregor, you have to come up with a way to simultaneously:

A) Set him at the peak of his powers,

B) Make him internally consistent with Battler's own narrative context (which is either ultra-fantastic OR utterly mundane, with no in-between) while achieving the first requirement, and

C) Display how he wins.

I personally can't really do this. Gregor's peak fighting state is anathema to the 'true' setting context of Umineko, and fielding a weaker version of him that somehow fits into it makes no sense whatsoever, because that's cherrypicking for the sake of winning the argument. So we have to accept the internal logic of both characters must be true at the same time, which means if magic is real, so are Battler's magic powers. And that means he crushes Gregor, without a doubt.

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Shine on, you crazy diamond.