Lurker > KanzarisKelshen

A lot of that has to do with the fact 6/week dudes parry minigun fire. "This single shot will do what hundreds of simultaneous rounds couldn't" is personally a hard sell because it feels like it requires incompetence on the part of her targets to work if they know she's there, if that makes any sense? I feel against people who cant just walk through gunfire she'd demolish but she'd lose to the mgs1 cyborg ninja for ex.
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Yeah, I think you're right. It's reallllly hard to go much higher than Widow's level with just sniping. 5s and up need their kits to be more rounded than that by necessity. Doesn't mean they can't have a sniping focus, but it won't be the only thing they do.
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Yeah, I'm struggling to think of a pure sniper who wouldn't have some issues. Would people respect Widowmaker from Overwatch? Zer0 from Borderlands? Legion from ME? Those are the notable strong sniper heavy characters that come to mind.
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Interestingly strong snipers are much more consistent. Nova won a match in Neclord's castle for ex, and Quiet's respect issues had more to do with being ill-fit for high tier than anything else.
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

oh actually there's a thought

Anyone played Pillars of Eternity (especially PoE2)? Do you feel like any of the characters from it, or the MC, would make nice mercs? I feel like there's potential for a Cipher Watcher but I have no idea how respected s/he would be
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Mewtwo59 posted...

Have we ever had a pure healer that wasn't a mage?

I don't think so? Ana, Mercy and Medic offer options in that sense

maybe some physical healers too if I can recall them
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Lopen posted...

I still think healing is more worth a slot than people think if the heal bot has actual good heal options. I basically had healbot Yu Narukami clutch out a match more than once in the draft edition. People just don't try it because people have historically been dumb about rostering them wisely. Medic could definitely be worth a slot with a good team composition though.

Part of the problem is most healers suck because of 'balance'

Yu is a strong healer cause he packs a lot of buffs and stuff and his heals are super fast maxouts

Somebody who can do nothing BUT heal is...well, Garnet from FF9 or Aerith and we saw how that panned out.
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Yeah I meant 'not worth a whole slot'. It's why pairing him with someone else makes more sense since then you get Value (TM) without feeling like you lose firepower
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Yeah the theory atm is like a 'Meet The Team' custom where you pick two dudes to send out every peacetime

maybe three with a char upgrade and possibly an upkeep hike from 4 to 5/week

Seems like an OK way to capture their flavor? Hopefully two or three dudes isn't too much to handle
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

The tf2 guys kinda work better in some kinda team in general. Like...Medic alone is a bad release even though he does nice things, but Medic + Heavy is a lot more interesting than the sum of its parts if that makes any sense? A full team is prolly too much tho.
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Match is up! Let's have some fun everyone: https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/77480753
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Luis_Sera89 posted...

For reference, Demifiend was considered but never released as a combat merc in M4 for the same reason Morrigan Aensland wasn't. When the potential bar is that high, you have to produce some compelling reasoning/evidence that releasing the merc isn't going to break the game (all of this was before week 41 clearly), and no-one could.

Like, he was on the docket for a potential release for weeks, with a build and everything, and even bearing in mind we needed every high tier merc we could get, he still wasn't released.

Yeah, the match he had bears that out, at least in part. His post-Nocturne showings only giving him more hype is kind of unhelpful in that sense.

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(On a different note, I will post the Team vs Team match tonight. Sorry for the delays everyone, was pretty busy for a bit.)
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Necron is definitely allegorical. Zidane and co. all die to Kuja and fight off the death that comes to claim them in the afterlife to get back. He's called 'Darkness of Eternity' in JP to better convey the idea that he's not really a normal boss like the dude you just beat but more of a concept. It's why such a wonky boss comes outta nowhere with 0 plot relevance (that and Sakaguchi wanted a throwback to other wonky-ass NES/SNES final bosses like Cloud of Darkness, Zeromus and so on, according to interviews).
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Part of what makes him fair is that a team of 5/weeks beats him in his strongest version (DDS, Imagine is JP only so doesn't count). His ceiling and floor are a bit weird but it's possible to fit him in the mercs curve, probably.
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

DMC2 Dante actually IIRC

I don't put TONS of stock into that because in the ultimate version of SMT3 Dante is replaced with Raidou Kuzunoha (who in game mechanic terms is stronger than Dante due to getting a skill that lets him hurt the bonus boss)...but on the other hand, Raidou's actions singlehandedly create the Persona timeline so I mean, dude is legit anyway.

What really makes the Demifiend respectable though is just what he accomplished. When you kill the final boss, you break time. Not like in a vague way - you killed the avatar of the Abrahamic God which makes it so the cycle of death and rebirth of all things is permanently over and nothing can be born again and the game says as much explicitly. There is no plotkai boosting you to do that either - you simply beat the crap out of said avatar until it dies and takes the world and time with it. Then you fight Lucifer to prove you can kill the Abrahamic God himself by beating him, and do, and then the game ends with you leading the hosts of hell to fight the Almighty God. You know how Zidane and friends beat Necron who is an abstract concept of death in an allegorical battle in FF9? Imagine that if it was completely non-allegorical or abstract or dreamy and simply ended with them killing death, permanently, for good. That's basically what the Demifiend accomplishes.
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

How about everyone else? Do you agree with that?
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

ZeeksFire posted...

Out of interest and curiosity Kanzaris, Demi-Fiend vs Id. Because while seeing the Raiden vs Demifiend fight up, I was thinking that Id would have been a more reasonable data point, with Raiden and Demifiend having no real points of comparison due to the differences shown in the games.

I don't know too much about the TF2 vs class 7 but it should be interesting.

Do you guys feel like it'd be a close match if demifiend doesnt have DDS outings? Feels like he'd stomp Id if he could beat RIden but I have no idea on demifiend's floor.
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

After that ungraceful stomp (so sorry guys), I feel like we need a palate cleanser. Lemme know what you think of this one, everyone:

The RED Team are as they appear in Team Fortress 2 and its cinematics & comics. Each member has their standard equipment, replacing the appropriate pieces for the following items: Force-A-Nature for Scout, Buff Banner for Soldier, Thermal Thruster for Pyro, Natascha for Heavy, Pomson 6000 for Engineer, Crusader's Crossbow for Medic, Sydney Sleeper for Sniper, and Cloak & Dagger for Spy. Only one of each of the Engineers buildings may be constructed at a time. No taunt is an instant kill, though the Spys backstab will kill instantly and the enemy team is aware of this.

~VS~

Class 7 is as it appears in Trails of Cold Steel II, including all of its members (even Millium) except for Rean Schwarzer and Sara Valestein. No guest characters or special characters are present, and each classmate has access to all orbal arts belonging to the elements that match their elemental slots, plus all of their crafts and S-Crafts. They are at max level, equipped with their ultimate equipment, and optimal Master Quartz for each member. They may benefit from the effects of Battle Links with each other as appropriate.

Terrain: Realm of Terror - The domain of Diablo in the Burning Hells, complete with lava aplenty and obfuscating fog, as seen in Diablo 2, covering the River of Flame and Chaos Sanctuary, with a portal at the center of the Sanctuary leading to the hellish arena seen during the shadow section of Diablo's Diablo 3 fight. Attackers will start at the entryway to the River of Flame, with defenders starting at the heart of the Sanctuary. No demons are present.

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Paging @greengravy294 to doublecheck the Class 7 writeup in case I missed anything important. If anyone else has any comments here, lemme know as well.
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Match is up, as promised: https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/77466506

I wonder how Demifiend will perform? Let's go!
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Mewtwo59 posted...

I don't know, after that match I'm a little worried Shirou is going to be killed by the "lol so dumb" thing like Travis was.

It's something his leader will have to argue against if he returns (which is up in the air, but at least he has a chance now that we know his battle worth can actually exist). I think there's backing to say he won't go full dumb (like the fight with Lancer in the prologue, several excerpts of him thinking tactically, etc.) but it's gonna be 100% a sell job to make sure he doesn't end up nerfed by voter biases.
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

DeathChicken posted...

Does Demi-Fiend get his demon summons?

No (edited in for clarity) unless y'all think he gets super bodied without them, in which case he gets his main gal and canon demon, Super Pixie. With how he's basically the damage dealer of the Messiahs of the Diamond Realm in SMT4A's DLC, I don't think he really needs Daisoujou, Matador and all the others.
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Feeling a hankerin' for a new match. Not tonight, but what do you guys think about giving this dude a long overdue first outing tomorrow?

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Raiden is as he appears in Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance, with access to all of his weapons (save the Fox Blade), upgrades and non-recovery items available in that game. He has access to a maxed out energy gauge for Blade Mode and Ripper Mode.

~VS~

The Demi-Fiend is as he appears in Shin Megami Tensei 3: Nocturne, Shin Megami Tensei 4: Apocalypse, and Shin Megami Tensei: Digital Devil Saga, with all of the skills displayed in those games and all relevant immunities, save immunity to physical damage, as well as the skills Pierce, Focus and Fire Boost. Gaea Rage will reduce defenses as in SMT4A, but may not necessarily inflict OHKO damage on all opponents. He may not summon any demons.

Terrain: The Void - A barren featureless landscape with no cover or anything to speak of. There is no obvious source of light, but visibility is clear and the terrain otherwise has similar gravity, atmosphere, etc to Earth. Teams start 100m from each other.
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Johnbobb posted...

So playing through KH3, and I can only imagine Sora's respect going up considerably. Possibly bordering on 6 territory

He was already borderline 6 in practice if everyone's vote patterns stay the same

If he gets notably stronger I think he might be a straight 6/week period

(also, that build I made where he gets to summon friends just got a whole lot more ridiculous if some of the spoilers I hear are true.)
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Surprisingly, looks like Shirou with UBW might actually be a character who is releasable without being a total embarrassment. Who'd have thought?

(Megaman proving that he's a big boy 5/week tho, stomping him into the dirt completely. Atta boy Rock)
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Nemesis wins! I'll post the tally later. For now, the second match I talked about is up:

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/77457645

Have at it!
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Will be putting up the MM/Shirou topic tonight, probably, once Nemesis/Tidus is over. Very impressed with the big boy's respect, did not expect him to win nearly so cleanly. For the next match, we'll go with UBW Shirou, since that one has less overlap with Archer.
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Gentlemen, we have a match: https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/77454620

Enjoy!
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

DeathChicken posted...

I'm also assuming Nemmy's last form must actually be beaten, it doesn't just drop dead when he reaches Vagina Monster (wording is slightly ambiguous)

Yes, this will be added to the finalized writeup, it's not on a timer. You have to actually close or he'll just chomp you eventually.
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Aight, sounds like there's decent debate there, I'm glad

Always felt like Nemesis could be a primo 3/week and this match should give us some nice information on how he does that I can compare to Mr. X once I've played RE2make
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Look I wanted to say waterball but it would have been a squash match

lets save those for the actual game so we can have some nice narratives ok
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Alany posted...

Off of a quick look, I'm easily going to go and pick Shirou in both cases and Nemesis. The resurrection for Nemesis and the drawn out nature of the fight doesn't play to Tidus' strengths in my opinion.

Wouldn't his massive speed advantage give Tidus a large edge vs Nemmy? Or do you feel like it doesn't matter because Nemesis is so tanky he'll run out Tidus' MP and then murder him?

shirou is so swingy

imo bin him, there are much cooler AND better-respected AND consistently respected reps

This is definitely being considered for the record, depending on how this test goes

If he turns out to be too polarizing even with actually good combat we'll probably can him, it's just thorough to test if he can actually do well when he isn't basically Fate shirou but even worse
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

OK, so I kinda wanna test two different mercs. Gonna be putting up some matches this week...this is what I have in mind:

Nemesis T-Type is as he appears in Resident Evil 3: Nemesis, armed with his rocket launcher and with full access to his Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3 moveset. Upon being killed, he will immediately advance to his next boss form until he reaches his final form, at which point he will finally die for real.

~VS:~

Tidus is as he appears in Final Fantasy X, with the entirety of his normal sphere grid maxed out and access to all his overdrives. He also has access to his moves from the Dissidia series (including Dissidia NT), though the brave/HP mechanics do not apply. He has his Caladbolg and best non-broken armor.

Terrain: Fuyuki Bridge - A long bridge connecting Shinto and Miyama City. All areas of the bridge, and the river below, are accessible, though the surroundings of the bridge have a powerful bounded field in place, preventing escape. Attackers will start on the Miyama end, with defenders starting by the Shinto exit.

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(Note: I need a specific armor for Tidus, someone who recently replayed FFX help out?)

And for the second match...

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Mega Man is as seen in Mega Man Series. He has access to his Mega Buster, his Magnet Beam, all of his weapons from the mainline Mega Man series (1-10) aside from the Time Stopper, Flash Stopper, Gravity Hold, Centaur Flash and Astro Crush and his moveset from Marvel vs Capcom 2, but may only use his hypers if he has enough meter and the necessary robots are present.

~VS.~

Shirou Emiya is as he appears in Fate/Stay Night, at the end of the Unlimited Blade Works route. His contract to Rin Tohsaka is active, granting him full access to her mana reserves, and he has access to his rapid self-healing from his contract with Saber. Unlimited Blade Works is active, but will not override the terrain except to manifest swords. He may trace Kansho and Bakuya, as well as all the weapons of both teams as best as he is able.

-OR-

Shirou Emiya is as he appears in Fate/Stay Night during the Heaven's Feel route. He has access to Archer's arm and all the abilities it grants him, but is not yet affected by it and is at peak condition. He may trace all weapons of both teams as best as he is able, as well as Kansho and Bakuya and Berserker's rock sword (which grants him access to Nine Lives).

Terrain: Luxerion, the Divine City of Light - A gothic metropolis home to the Order, that chooses to greet the end of the world with peaceful reflection and prayer. There are no residents present and access to other areas of Nova Chrysalia is forbidden. Defenders will start at the cathedral where the portal leading to Bhunivelze's sanctum can be found (though it is inactive), and attackers will start at the city's train station.

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What do you guys think about these matchups? They seem fair and reasonably arguable for both sides?

(and before anyone asks, those Shirou models are experimental. Basically we want to see if he can get even a bit of respect if given his powerups before we bin him entirely, as part of an effort to clean up all VN characters and make them less annoying to argue and dumb. If you feel one of the two versions is generally better and has more of a chance of winning, please say so so we can get an interesting, arguable match.)
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

On that horror game note, this reminds me - now that RE2make is out, who do you guys think would be a better rep for the series, Nemesis or Mr. X? With Jill and Chris probably getting folded into a S. T. A. R. S. model, there's probably some room for another villain, and those two would fill a sorely lacking niche of low tier tank. We don't really need both though, so I'd like to hear opinions from people who've managed to play the remake (and know RE3 well enough) on which one might get more respect.
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

What would a writeup for her be like? I haven't played Until Dawn yet so I wouldn't be able to build a really good one
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Mewtwo59 posted...

I thought the whole thing was nobody thought 'Sonic with gunz' was a 5 and that's why Shadow stayed unbought even after he was demoted to a 4.

I know at least two people (not me) thought so, but yes, Shadow felt overupkeeped to me as well. I'm honestly not sure where he's supposed to go all told.
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

The dream there is to give Sonic enough that he can do (since he has a billion games to draw from) that even if he's mediocre in a given situation, you don't feel like an empty slot would've been better than him due to biases making people go 'lol sonic' and voting the other way. It's definitely not easy though, and we're still thinking about potential more elegant solutions than 'he gets a bunch of random stuff from his games to give him versatility'. I think Super Sonic was an experiment in trying to see if there was a way to stabilize Sonic's respect, but Super Sonic is so strong that the pendulum swings the other way and a lot of people will kneejerk vote for him even against excellent high tier teams.

EDIT: This reminds me that we never got to see Shadow in a match. I feel he needs to be tested at some point because some people thought 'sonic with gunz' was a solid 5 but it always felt like a stretch to me.
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

IfGodCouldDie posted...

From what I have seen from Sonic's feats based around Mercs, is there even anything Mario could do to beat Sonic?

somehow hit him with the Cappy possession????
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

redrocket posted...

We've always been denied Mario vs Sonic in the Character Battles how about some Mario vs Sonic Mercs style?

I feel Sonic would destroy but we DID have a Mario build we were working on, IIRC...what do you guys think?
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Lopen posted...

DeathChicken posted...

Eggman beats Kratos 6-3, making him probably the only vaguely respected Sonic character ever

Not really it just means off-season voters are higher concentration of Sonic respect. Bet Sonic could pull some wins with this group too

Give me a new character you think is sonic tier I must see this miracle for myself
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

greengravy294 posted...

hopefully m5 will be on discord, so i can complain to lopen on my phone

but of course

because there is nothing an admin wants more than to be harassed by angry players 24/7 over the phone
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/8-gamefaqs-contests/77419474

It's up

let's gooooooo
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

On that note, puttin the match up tonight in a few hours

Get psyched!
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Mewtwo59 posted...

A high school seems like a bad terrain for the Egg Dragoon. The stadium is pretty much the only place it'll fit.

School grounds are included tbf, so it's more like Kratos can have cover but Eggman isn't TOO BIG'd out. Seems like the match is looking at least a bit debatable though, which is nice! I was totally expecting 'lol kratos SOLOS' because you never know with sonic chars
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Kratos Aurion is as he appears in Tales of Symphonia. He has all of his EX Skills, and has access to all of his techniques including Judgment and Shining Bind.

~VS~

Dr. Eggman is as he appears in Sonic Unleashed, piloting the Egg Dragoon. It has access to all abilities shown in Sonic Generations, other than changing gravity. When the Egg Dragoon is defeated, Dr. Eggman is considered defeated as well.

Terrain: San Romero High School - A typical all-American high school as featured in Lollipop Chainsaw. All areas within the school grounds including classrooms, pool and stadium are accessible. Attackers start at the school's entrance, and defenders start at the school's stadium.

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Debuting a newish merc with a gimmick we're sort of indirectly testing here. How's this matchup look?
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Workin on a new match

Stay tuned for details!
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

DeathChicken posted...

I'm surprised we do not have a John Wick build

Too powerful for mercs to contain if his dog is killed
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

In case anyone had any doubts, David Dunn is a very solid 3/week for filmmercs I think
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Sounds about right to me - we're aiming to release a glossary of 'tags' for abilities to help people make mercs under the new system as well (the idea being that we can codify stuff like defensive abilities such that they block based on tags so you know 100% if an ability counters another or not), but otherwise that covers everything.
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

DeathChicken posted...

I'm always kind of amused by how the time gap between Mercs is such that entire videogame series go by with assloads of characters who never see the light of day. Like we got Ezio in Mercs, then missed Connor, Edward (this one's tragic, Edward is cool), Shay, etc

Likewise we have Red Dead 2 now and Arthur, but we never even got John Marston, did we?

It's a pity yeah

Not sure how we'd fix that beyond sparking lots of interest with m5 such that its followup comes quicker

(which, to be fair, is a mission statement, so...fingers crossed!)
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.

Oh dear

Hopefully everything turns out OK FD. Good luck!
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Shine on, you crazy diamond.