Lurker > HHH_is_the_game

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trust me I know Im not immune at all.

Its the problem that is growing more and
more apparent in the social media era. The more we form bubbles the more we just get presented different realities and pick and choose what to believe. Both sides do it and it means everybody is outraged by their version of reality. Some people see a thing saying it was two, some see a thing saying it was almost half. And we just accept the one we want.

I am terrified the division on the left on the Israel/Palestine issue will cause Biden to lose the election.

Donald Trump having another presidency, this time even older and more unstable than the last time, with no need for re-election so nothing to lose....it just sounds like a nightmare. I don't love Biden but I'd take anybody besides DeSantis over Trump

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Im legitimately confused. Most people mean anti-semitic to mean "hostile to or prejudiced against Jewish people". I have heard some point out that you can technically put other people in the 'semitic' box as well, so it should refer to more than just Jewish people. Do you mean that they are using anti-Palestinian rhetoric which is thus anti-semitic? In that case I agree, and they are horrible for that.

Most people though use it as a term to mean anti-Jewish. If you mean the (most likely Jewish) counter-protesters are using anti-Jewish slurs I am very confused.

And yeah, I am trying to be more careful with my posts...I obviously do not want to be banned or suspended. Which is why I try to be clear:

Criticizing Israel is not anti-semitic
MOST protesters are not anti-semitic
The anti-semitic events happening might not even be people affiliated with the protests, just piggy-backing off of the sentiment, or bad actors bringing down the whole lot.
There is no excuse for violence, in any case.

I just wanted some acknowledgement of the anti-semitic events happening that have contributed to the environment of hostility, and is one of the reasons why Biden made the speech he did.

(Update: Allegedly it is this person: https://twitter.com/w0kesolanas)

(I now realize the third tweet is from the same as the first - If this person does not exist and this is all propaganda let me know because I would love to know that it is! Can anybody confirm one way or the other if this video is doctored or what or if this person was made up for propaganda? Her name does come up in past articles as part of a palestinian support group at the school but Im unsure if this is her or what! It is very hard to know what to believe online now)

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Now the counter protesters are the ones yelling anti-semitic slurs? What??? (Unless you mean anti-Muslim by anti-semitic and not anti-Jewish, which I know some people do use it to mean that way. But usually anti-semitic is taken to mean anti-Jewish.)

There were counter protesters who were also giving genocidal threats and being violent, no doubt. Those people are horrible. But there has also allegedly been a LOT of anti-semitism towards Jewish students at the school, whether it is the protesters or not I don't know, but when this is brought up people deny it...It is a major part of the story though, is that Jewish students are not feeling safe, and not just because people support Palestine or criticize Israel (that is not anti-semitic and well within people's rights), but because anti-semitism is rising and incidents are happening often simultaneously with this protest. This is a big part of why Biden made the speech he did, but people in these spaces don't talk about it....

Please people read this article from the Columbia paper, a rabbi advising jewish students to return home because it was not safe. Many examples of anti-semitism...the link is too long so I needed a shortener but it has a lot of examples and is worth looking at:
https://shorturl.at/vAOU8

There are videos on social media that is also very concerning. Maybe some are fake, but all of them?

Here is an example. Tell me if this is fake...I HOPE it is....Allegedly this is "Tai Lee, a member of Writers Against the War on Gaza (WAWOG)"

https://twitter.com/thestustustudio/status/1781904507611287981
https://twitter.com/ShabbosK/status/1782085741431922909

In the speech she says things like ""Let it be known that it was the Al-Aqsa Flood that put the Global Intifada back on the table again. And it is the sacrificial spirit of the Palestinian Freedom Fighters that will guide every struggle on every corner of the earth to victory." and "On October 7, the Palestinian resistance in Gaza broke through the walls of their open-air prison, shattering the illusion of the invincibility of their occupiers". The crowd then cheers. WTF?

Id want to think this person doesn't exist and it's fake, but more people on Twitter backing up that this is her making a speech at Columbia: https://twitter.com/thestustustudio/status/1783320666369917180

Like there ARE people on this side actively cheering for Hamas.

Anyway, Im sure these people are extremists. But they obviously contribute to the climate and denying they exist and are piggy-backing off of this does not help the pro-palestinian cause....And making a narrative of all the protesters being totally innocent...Im sure MOST of them are but don't ignore and make a narrative that they are all completely innocent and none did anything incendiary at all....Those kinds of fears of having anti-semitism ignored is precisely part of why Jewish students feel unsafe.

The last thing people want to do is have the pro-palestine protests genuine cause come off as feueled by anti-semitism so it is best to acknowledge these bad apples and distance from them, not ignore they exist. That does start making Jewish people feel bad when they see anti-semitics being ignored and not called out with the same fervor. So let's all agree these people suck, the people being racist on both sides of this conflict.

Enclave posted...

Got a better source? Eric Adams, the cops and the NY Post all are unreliable.

well if the cops are not a good source I dont know what source you could possibly want? Nobody else has the information except them lol.

another problem with these things though (in both sides) is anybody is only going to believe the narrative they already believe and everything else is propaganda. Its scary because we cant even agree on reality anymore. Of course every side believes theyre right and viciously hates the other. They live in a reality very different from the other side.

I dont know what we can do about this as a society. But it does make discourse impossible.

NoMeLx22x posted...

Do you have a source for this or are you just making it up?

No idea about career protesters, but it is true that a TON of the protesters were not from the schools: https://nypost.com/2024/05/02/us-news/nearly-half-of-anti-israel-protesters-arrested-at-columbia-city-college-werent-students/

The violent and genocidal counter-protesters that escalated the situation were extremely horrible, for sure, but there is a problem here....depending on which side of things you are on you see a very skewed perspective and narrative. For example this board says that the protests were nice and peaceful then a bunch of bigoted counter-protesters got violent and ruined it. They will signal boost the worst of the counter-protesters (Who are awful, no doubt) but did not post the article about all the anti-semitic behavior that the Columbia students were facing this week (They might not even be protesters themselves, but there is still a narrative missing about the anti-semitism that came along with these protests) so much that a rabbi affiliated with the school said they were not safe and recommended they go home. And Im sure many on the pro-Israel did not see the violent clip of the counter-protesters (my mom had not seen that, only the stuff from the protesters).

bfslick50 posted...

So in a topic about a violent pro-Israel group using genocidal rhetoric, you condemn the violence but didn't mention that they're using genocidal rhetoric. You exclusively acknowledge genocidal rhetoric used by some pro-Palestinian people. Why is that? There is currently a leading American political candidate with a history of anti-Islamic rhetoric and now there's genocidal rhetoric used against Palestinians, that's scary too right?

So, I do want to apologize. Being too fired up I didn't read carefully and did not see the parts about them invoking the 'nakba' (and yes I realize this was mentioned very prominently in the first post)

While I do stand by what I said about anti-semitism in this thread and others, I also do want to say that I condemn their genocidal rhetoric as well, and their violence. Genocidal rhetoric is awful and no matter how they feel about the protests there is zero excuse for that, especially in light of the current events. The people in that video in the first post are awful and their association with Jews is not one I want.

It is scary times for both Jewish and muslim people right now, with all this hate swirling around, and the feelings about the conflict in the Middle East surfacing into hatred against people here.

Those pro-Israeli people in the first post are horrible, and they do not represent me or Jewish people, I reject them and their violence and genocidal rhetoric. We all must rise above this kind of thing. I agree that their rhetoric is scary too, and I would not want to be Palestinian right now having to choose between Trump and Biden. It does sound very scary, I 100% agree.

So I am sympathetic with the protesters and their cause as well, and not sympathetic to those responding in violence.

I just hope everybody remains careful and does not give into hate themselves. Earlier in this thread somebody claimed Israel is the one responsible for anti-semitism because they are being evil and that anti-semitism would not be fueled if they were not. while the first post was deleted the second one still remains. Only one person called it out. I hope we can all agree that such a sentiment is not consistent with left values that rejects such things as anti-semitism and does not give an excuse such as that one. After 9/11 the left vehemently resisted anti-muslim sentiment because it does not matter what extremist terrorists did, anti-muslim prejudice is wrong. Similarly it does not matter what Israel does, anti-semitism is still wrong. Im sure this is not a controversial opinion here so be sure to call out instances of this as well. Because anti-semitism is everywhere and they will jump on these protests. Don't be like the right and make sure these elements are being vehemently rejected especially at such a tumultuous time when both Jewish and Muslim people are afraid

hak145 posted...

i think anti semitism is being created by israel, not the protesters.

I know I said Id disengage but I just wanna point to this as an example of what I mean when I say the left is acting like the right. Seeing these kinds of things in progressive spaces is very disheartening to see, when they are supposed to be the party against this kind of rhetoric.

Thanks Necronmon for calling it out.

CountCorvinus posted...

He'd gain more than he'd lose. Turns out, starving children and genocide isn't a popular opinion. Shocker, I know.

https://www.dataforprogress.org/blog/2024/2/27/voters-support-the-us-calling-for-permanent-ceasefire-in-gaza-and-conditioning-military-aid-to-israel

It's almost like Butcher Biden wants to lose.

That is asking about calling for a de-escalation of violence. A LOT can agree on that. The party is still divided though. It also says below that 53% of democratic voters feel that providing military aid to Israel is at least somewhat important (even if they are more united on helping the Ukraine). But still, if the question asked if we should completely stop providing aid to Israel, I imagine the results would be different.

The fact is you have a party divided, where moderates and progressives are opposed. They might not be as loud on reddit and CE but if Biden was to remove military aid you can bet there would be a lot of upset people on the democratic side as well. But I feel bad for him because there is NO way to make everybody happy here.

Sandalorn posted...

He's a pure hard-liner....he spouts 100% IDF/Bibi level of propaganda. What he says and implies literally turns my stomach and gamefaqs just allows it thread after thread.

Imagine focusing solely on a phrase that has multiple meanings as a call to genocide while also downplaying and ignoring THE ACTUAL GENOCIDE HAPPENING by the country he supports. You simply have to be a horrible person to do that. Horrible.

100% IDF/Bibi level of propaganda? I said that Israel's actions have been horrible. Is that what Bibi says? Anyway I said I would stop engaging, its just frustrating seeing posts like this calling you horrible and ignoring what you are actually saying, refusing to engage with one point, which I believe I have at least done to some people. I don't think Im horrible, but I think the lack of empathy shown by the supposedly empathetic side can be pretty horrible too. I do think there are probably more extreme viewpoints here, and I have to imagine that does not include most people offline.

I continue to think that people are behaving like conservatives and doing things they would call out if the other side did them....but none of us can change each other's minds it seems. I just again say be careful with your messaging because Im not the only one. But again, I will try to stop responding now <_<

I honestly don't know HOW to respond to somebody that refuses to acknowledge why the phrase is problematic. Im sure there are people that say that any criticism of Israel is anti-semitic, but I don't agree with them, as Ive said many times. There are legitimate fears out there that people have that this is an anti-semitic movement. I don't think it's true, mainly, and if it's not true, wouldn't you want everybody to know it isn't true?

Ive seen them chant things that are fair, and also things that are uncomfortable.

If they have so many chants, why do they insist on using the one that sounds violent and is used by hamas and associated with genocide? Or is there a section of the protests, if just a small amount, that are angry and DO like the idea of throwing genocidal things in retaliation for the Israeli genocide? I don't want to believe that, but their insistence is concerning. And I feel like if this was the right doing it, everybody would feel the same way and rightfully call out the behavior.

You have repeatedly refused to acknowledge that there may be a section of the protesting group that is influenced by anti-semitism so you can't be engaged with really.....I've tried numerous times to explain why it's problematic, and why it's problematic how people react when that's pointed out, but it is brushed off and ignored, which is exactly the problem people have in the first place.

Im not even engaging in the topics about the actual conflict anymore, this is about protests and students in America.

I think there is a very valid narrative that some of the protests, while fighting for a valid cause, were far too comfortable making Jewish students feel uncomfortable and using anti-semitic rhetoric, that means while their cause was a good one, maybe the protest itself had issues and was upsetting.

I don't 'care more about the use of this statement than the ongoing genocide' but everybody is already protesting the genocide and it is not a controversial issue here so there's nothing to say. But as a Jewish person obviously seeing that somebody wants October 7 to happen 1000 times is an obviously chilling statement that hits close to home, and to see it brushed off as nothing does make me look at the college protests differently. Ironically the responses are sometimes even worse, because when it's one person you say "well they don't represent the movement", then you come here and instead of people agreeing and condemning those people they just brush it off? Even make a point of saying the same phrases that you talked about why Jewish people have concerns with. For the record, the pro-Israeli counter protestors getting violent do not represent me and the people that want to stop Israel have a right to protest. I think there are very valid reasons to protest Israel, and I don't think protesting Israel makes you anti-semitic (and I have argued such to my family many times, defending the protests). But I do think that people are too comfortable with anti-semitic sentiment and stoking the fires in ways that make me upset. People would feel the same way about anti-Muslim sentiment but when it's concerns of anti-semitism somehow people don't care. And then they defend it because of the actions of Israel's government? Just as there are innocent Palestinians there are innocent Israelis, and of course Jews world-wide that have nothing to do with any of this.

The fact people continually brush it off is scary. Like because of Israel's actions, anything is ok.

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People don't realize that their rhetoric and responses affects people.

People express how they are feeling worried by what they see as growing anti-semitic sentiment, including sharing space with some of these protesters, including many instances of actual anti-semitic rhetoric and threats.

it is written off as "pointless drivel"

People wonder why people are getting the wrong idea, and say "are they stupid that they can't figure out what the protests mean?"

But yet they don't mind shouting people down and dismissing them and then wonder why people worry.

But here's the thing....once again you guys are engaging in this the wrong way. Even in this thread people refuse to acknowledge the threat of anti-semitic sentiment making its way into the otherwise-valid protests. That feels pretty frightening. Especially with an article posting instance after instance after instance of anti-semitic behavior towards Jewish students (who are, by the way, not in Israel)

So are Jews being 'stupid' ? When they see in front of their eyes that this is how people react? Unfortunately they have a history of a people of devastating effects when things swing in an anti-semitic direction.

So protest Israel all you want, and many Jews will protest right with you, but be careful with your rhetoric because there's also a sensitive population on the other side. Just like if you were to protest Hamas, you would be careful about how the sentiment affects Muslims.

I saw a study on reddit yesterday that said 20% of gen Z polled said they agreed the Holocaust is a myth? WTF??

https://www.reddit.com/r/GenZ/comments/18de5jd/gen_z_is_hopping_on_to_some_worrying_trends/

I don't know YouGov but apparently they are the source of the data and the comments seem to think they are a fairly reliable source? The rates of holocaust denial were higher in democrats than in republicans....

Like there's scary stuff going on in the world for Jews and Muslims alike and this conflict will lead to a LOT of hatred towards undeserved parties. Israel is a very valid target but not Jews in general (even Zionists, is a bit of a weird thing to use, since being anti-zionist could mean you are against Israeli oppression or for many it could mean they don't think Israel should exist at all)

Thanatos_the_Great posted...

Yes, it'll be terrible if Biden lets that happen by putting people off voting for him by supporting the Israeli regime's crimes with weapons and money.

biden is in a terrible spot. If he withdraws aid do you think it wont also drive away voters ? Theres lots of more moderate democrats without a nuanced view of the situation that would see it very badly. Biden is in a terrible position.

Fenriswolf posted...

Tell me, do you think those BLM protesters calling for abolition of police want to round up police and their families to be slaughtered?

No? I mean....is it not obvious why this is not the same thing? Hamas literally did slaughter Jews and their families, so obviously hearing echoes of the language Hamas uses in this situation is EXTREMELY different than anything BLM has said?

Fenriswolf posted...

In contrast, elected far right politicians are openly falling for murder of Palestinians, and calling Palestine supporters "Hamas supporters" is a common dogwhistle.

Yeah, it's EXTREMELY messed up. Hopefully you will be much better than that. There are dogwhistles from the pro-Palestinian side too, so reject them.

It just seems like despite the left being the party that protects minorities, any concerns or worries of antisemitism seem to be brushed off. Even the way 'Zionist' is used as if it was a dirty word, when to many people 'Zionist' just means thinking Israel has the right to exist. By that definition Id think most jews are 'zionists' even if they hate the israeli government and think it needs to be stopped. Zionist does not mean pro-genocide or pro-Israel bombing people, or at least to many it does not.

I guarantee that there are many Jewish people watching these things and feeling frightened about what it will do for anti-semitism going forward, and seeing the anti-semitism that does exist not being called out and rejected, and actually brushed off or defended is really scary to see. ESPECIALLY when its the left of all people.

To be clear, there is nothing anti-semitic about protesting Israel's government and their actions

Fenriswolf posted...

Kindly stop "both siding" rival protesters. A minority of pro-Palestine protesters with bad signs cannot be compared to violent Zionists defending genocide and attacking those that dare to disagree with them. That's like saying BLM protesters are comparable to 1/6 insurrectionists because there were some black nationalists supporting the former, despite the fact that their causes are polar opposites.

Then again, didn't claim that the "from the river to the sea" slogan is antisemitic?

Um...yes, a minority of Pro Palestinians using genocidal rhetoric can be compared to a minority of pro Israel people getting violent about genocide IMO. Calling for Jewish deaths (literally praising Hamas and saying that 10/7 is going to happen 1000 times) and harassing Jewish students to the point that a rabbi was advising them to go home because they were not safe, is comparable to the vile actions by the Israel protesters. 1/6 Insurrectionists were not responding to something like 10/7 so it's a pretty different situation. BLM protesters were not throwing threats at a vulnerable minority population.

I genuinely believe most people are completely sincere in their protests and are looking for peace and for Palestinians to be free from oppression, and for Israeli's brutal war crimes to stop.

But there is also an element of something more sinister standing beside them. And the refusal of the left to acknowledge the problem of anti-semitism co-opting their protests is pretty scary to Jewish people.

Yes, I brought up how that slogan invokes genocide against Israelis and Jews because of its usage by Hamas, and instead of people acknowledging that, they continued to insist on using the phrase, said they don't care about Jewish fee fees, and that a new anti-semite is born every day Israel continues to be evil.

Then we are supposed to not be afraid that there is anti-semitism in these protests?

There is so much propaganda on both sides it's crazy and everybody wants to prove the other side is the evil one. This whole situation is a mess....there are probably people critical of Israel's actions that also don't like the protests because they feel like it is anti-semitic and I do think that more could be done to show that that is not the case, and that the enemy is the Israeli government, not Jewish people or Israeli citizens

The pro-Israel side resorting to physical violence....definitely deranged I agree. But this is no innocent protest either....scary the stuff that is happening now and the anti-semitism wave that is piggybacking onto and riding the waves of this protest

https://shorturl.at/mpF23

This is pretty chilling. People invoking Hamas, saying October 7 is going to happen 1000 times over....etc.

Im sure there is probably anti-Muslim stuff happening too that that article doesn't talk about.

Scary times for jewish and muslim people in the world all because of Israel and Hamas miles away.

Again, this is very different. Black Lives Matter was not possibly harmful to a minority group. People's complaints about Black Lives Matter and about "from the river to the sea" are so massively different, that I don't know how you do not see it.

It's not that it can't be understood what people mean by it. But the refusal to use another phrase when the connotations are called out is very...strange. but whatever...the conversation isn't productive , you guys will not understand what I mean...so I will close it

bfslick50 posted...

Its feeling like the Israeli government wants all land from the river to the sea to be part of Israel so if that saying is a call for genocide then

Theres a provocation, then a war where one side has an overwhelming military advantage, the losing population is squeezed into ever smaller reservations, were actively watching the same play as what happened with Native Americans.

I get why protestors chanting from the river to the sea can be worrying but the powerless are going to lash out. Not everyone in MLKs time was as calm as MLK and not ever advocate for Palestine is going to be able to reproduce his calm now.

This is where this is an interesting dynamic...The powerless lash out against the powerful. But Israel is powerful, Jews are not. Jews in any country besides Israel, are a minority. So this is not black people lashing out at white people. This is something different and unusual. Anti-semitic violence is a legitimate threat that Jewish people feel deeply...So we end up in a situation where the powerless people lashing out might actually not be as harmless as it seems

Reimu posted...

The message is that Netanyahu and the IDF are responding to the October 7th attack with actions that fall under genocide and various other war crimes. What part of that message is difficult to understand?

You misunderstand me. Yes that is the predominant message. But there is also fear that there are those who have hatred for Jewish people and for Israel that want to see it eradicated, wiped off the map, etc. That want anti-semitic violence etc. That is not what the protests are for. They are protests for peace. So they should be careful not to sympathize with Hamas, to use statements that make Jewish people feel uncomfortable because of how it was used in genocidal rhetoric against them, etc...

When you see sentiment moving in that direction you start fearing this is more than just anti-Israel, and if that is not the case, then people should be careful to avoid fueling those fires. Because there are always going to be anti-semitic people jumping at the chance to join these protests. So be wary of them.

I was listening to the ezra klein podcast, and he had people on that had multiple viewpoints about the conflict. There was a very interesting one with a Jewish rabbi from California. She expressed the feelings of being caught in the middle of all this. She preaches of peace, and preaches against Israel...She talks of how the Israeli government is not representing Jewish values, and how their treatment of the Palestinians was not something consistent with what she believes Judaism is. That they need to rise above fear and hatred and treat people with kindness and peace. She also expressed her feelings of betrayal and fear about anti-Jewish sentiment in the wake of things like October 7th and seeing how quick some extremists were to celebrate Hamas's actions or downplay the Jewish pain. It was a very interesting interview of how torn somebody can be in that position of preaching for peace but also feeling the fear of anti-semitism in the reaction of all these events.

Ultimately she preaches that you should feel the pain of all innocent loss, Israeli deaths and Palestinian deaths, and anybody who feels pain for one and not the other needs to examine themselves.

But it was interesting hearing a rabbi who is both anti-Israel but worried about anti-semitic sentiment in the world

CoyoteTheGreat posted...

I mean, what it should be is that the UN should march in and take control of the area, and a strict constitution should be put in place that prevents parties, candidates and laws based on favoring any ethnicity over another. That's the only way at this point to avert a genocide. A two state solution is just a disguise for apartheid. There are no proposals for a real Palestine, there is no state in the world that looks like the maps that have been proposed by Israel with non-continouous borders all over the place and complete military control by Israel. That's not a state.

But what happens then, also there is a big military disparity with Israel and Palestine so what happens with that? Obviously we don't want their resources going to Hamas. And speaking of Hamas, what is done about them? How do we prevent terrorism and war ? Who is in charge?

CoyoteTheGreat posted...

No one wants it because they want to kill each other. If you don't support the frankenstein solution, you either want one side or the other genocided, and you should be honest about that too. A two state solution isn't going to happen, it isn't realistic, and everyone knows that.

What do you think the solution is going to or should be? A two-state solution seems like the most realistic.....how could a one-state solution work? What would happen? How would they prevent deaths?

Reimu posted...

They need to stop only hearing and start listening to the message then. The communication is there, putting fingers in your ears going "LALALALALA" doesn't magically make it go away or change its meaning. Their refusal to listen does not constitute bigotry. People are not going to sugarcoat blatant genocide nor should they have to do so.

There is a problem that didn't really come up in this thread. Some Jewish people likely aren't quite sure what the message is. They watched one of the biggest attacks against Jewish people on October 7th, and they saw people instantly mobilize AGAINST Israel, and even sometimes, defend Hamas as freedom fighters the very next day. I think we can (most of us) condemn both Israel and Hamas for their actions. But there is a lot of anti-semitic sentiment in the world, and it's hard to know always how much of the protest is pro-Palestine, anti-Israel, and how much going to turn to anti-Jewish. Is the protest valid? Yes. But chants like this only muddy the waters. Anti-semitic sentiment growing is a scary thought. For example, people after 9/11 turned their legitimate grievance against Muslim terrorists into anti-Muslim sentiment completely. So, Israel's bad actions, we don't want to see that legitimate anger turned into anti-JEWISH sentiment, or pro-Hamas. Some people in this thread have made pretty chilling statements.

And while Im sure the majority of the protesters are not anti-semitic, there are likely some who are, and seeing chants that have been co-opted by Hamas to genocidal ends used in these places? (Even in that one video where somebody supporting the protest makes a speech about being careful with the language, and they instantly chant it again anyway) and seeing people insist on sticking to these phrases even knowing the weight behind them, it will make people nervous.

And some of these are at schools, which also includes Jewish students.

FunWithAFryPan posted...

You are the right wing.

If anyone is doing the heavy lifting right now for anti-Semitism, its the genocide denying Zionists like you. You think your rhetoric is going to discourage antisemitism? A new antisemite is born every day theres a genocidal apartheid regime blasting innocent civilians in their homes and on their streets. Israel is every bit as evil as Nazi Germany, the only difference is one of scale.

jesus......

I will withdraw from the conversation at this point.

No, it isn't some conspiracy theory. Hamas uses the phrase in their charter multiple times and we know what they want and what they mean.

If the right-wing was making these same arguments, the left would be absolutely incensed. They take them to task constantly for their use of language. Right-wingers insisting "No, no, we know the KKK used this phrase, but we're not using it for THAT reason, it doesn't mean that when WE say it" and refusing to change it? The left would eat them alive. They would ask why they choose a phrase the KKK loves when they could choose any other phrase, and they wouldn't care about their arguments as to why they did it.

But people don't see that they are now doing the same thing.....

But it is obvious that the discussion isn't actually going anywhere. So I will end it now.

FunWithAFryPan posted...

Please tell me you were kidding.

No, the phrase was used by israel, in fact it originated there.

So you do think this is a fair thing to chant after October 7th ? No, of course not, it would be considered genocidal aggression.

Israel should not say it. Neither should the opposition.

With all this anger, violence, and genocidal intent, we cannot say this on either side without giving a HUGE amount of baggage

NoMeLx22x posted...

This is the reality.

But TC and similar agitators will do everything they can to paint it as a "Hamas slogan"

Can you explain then, why people insist on chanting the phrase that is used this way by Hamas, and not any other slogan in the world? Like ok, sure, that is what it means, but if there is this confusion, why are they insisting on this phrase defiantly?

Murphiroth posted...

So you didn't answer my question, at all.

You said that phrases are more than their origins and can be co-opted. Why does this not apply to the phrase in question? It's been co-opted and become more than its origin it seems.

I dont understand the question. Are you saying they are co-opting the phrase from Hamas?

I honestly would think it is obvious. If you can use any phrase in the world, why are you using the one associated with genocidal terrorist rhetoric instead of any other one?

The co-opting argument seems very....thin.

FunWithAFryPan posted...

LOL

Why is this funny....

Smashingpmkns posted...

It doesn't scare me because I'm not a disingenous fear mongerer

If anything this topic has only made it more freaky to be honest. Like it's hard to call me disingenuous when people keep backing up my points with their arguments and proving how they feel about these issues. I mean how many people said "Hm, that's a good point, maybe we should think of a better phrase"

AnsestralRecall posted...

Don't really care how it makes anyone feel when the Israelis are engaging in genocide. The only things that matter are ending their genocide and ousting the current colonial apartheid state from power.

Man, you guys are not even realizing the stuff you're saying....I have to imagine this is just extremist views and not what most people think.

Like people accuse me of going mask off and people keep saying really messed up things in this topic.

Do you realize what you are brushing off and its ok because Israel does bad things, so that makes this somehow ok to say?

I dont think its even what you mean, but consider what you are brushing off with "don't really care how it makes anyone feel"

Why is Jewish people the only minority that does not seemingly have their interests, safety, and feelings valued by the left?

Murphiroth posted...

Ooof the mask is slipping homie, might want to reel it back a bit.

I feel like you have to be mis-reading me because two people brought up this phrase and I don't get what they think I'm saying. My point is, Israel committing a genocide does not mean that you should use phrases that make Jewish people feel like you are cheering for THEIR genocide in response. Anti-semitic violence is also a real threat too. If we know genocide is bad, then Hamas genociding Israel would be an awful thing also. If the shoe was on the other foot, and Israel was the victim, this would be equally horrible. That is what I was saying.

Smashingpmkns posted...

I think the general meaning is that Palestinians are fighting for the day they can move freely and have agency from the river to the sea. This phrase is not a call for genocide, and to believe that it is says more about you than the people chanting the phrase.

Yeah, this might be what most of them mean. But to hear this not be quieted down with its association with Hamas and their rhetoric, it scares you about anti-semitic sentiment in America/the world.

Murphiroth posted...

So why doesn't this apply to the phrase in question?

Why are you more up in arms about a phrase that could potentially refer to genocide than the ACTUAL genocide that's currently ongoing?

I think that Israel's actions should be protested, but as a Jewish person obviously it hits close to home seeing that people that consider themselves in the right can say things like this gladly, in colleges, etc, and have it not be shouted down. After October 7th, if a pro-israel protest was saying this kind of thing, it would be equally scary and horrific I imagine.

codey posted...

Precisely. "Thoughts of a genocide are scary!" Oh are they? Then why is Israel committing one?

Do you realize what you are saying? I don't know if you do. like listen to yourself....Read it back and think about it.

Smashingpmkns posted...

I think it's pretty telling how, to some people, the mere thought of a free Palestine somehow implies genocide while the actual genocide happening in Palestine rn is somehow not a genocide to these same people.

So what do you think Hamas means when they say this phrase?

And do you think genocide should be met with genocide? If the shoe was on the other foot would that be suddenly ok?

ForsakenHermit posted...

The problem is a lot of people use that phrase to call for the genocide of Israelis. Not as a phrase that simply means wanting an end to the State of Israel replaced by Palestine.

This is all I mean, but people plug their ears about it for some reason and insist that it's vile to bring it up. Like, they hear these things, and refuse to care. Are they explicitly anti-semitic? Probably not. But it certainly does not feel good as a Jewish person.

I think that people are just literally not able to handle a conflict that involves two vulnerable forces. The dynamic of having Jewish people as a vulnerable minority and Israel as an oppressive force is impossible for them to navigate.

They say that criticizing Israel is not anti-semitic (which is true, it isn't) but then they also refuse to stop using phrases that have been used by Hamas to invoke genocide, and don't see a problem with it at all. Hamas for one does not draw a distinction between Israel and Jews. And if you bring it up, they complain that your feelings don't matter.

Please protest Israel's actions, but don't make Jews feel unsafe at the same time by seeing these phrases thrown around, accepted, and cheered. There are a million other things you can say to protest for a free Palestine, and when people hear these things, and carry on anyway (like in this very thread) it does make you start doubting the sincerity of the protesters in their feelings of Jewish people. Im sure it's not most of them, but people should reject that sentiment amongst those that do walk among them. And the left, the group that most cares about minorities, should be considering this as well and being responsible

NoMeLx22x posted...

If Fox News or other bad faith actors are being critical of something, no protestors should certainly should not have to entertain their asinine requests.

But does it not seem like a bad look to say

"I understand you want free Palestine, but this phrase you are using is associated with Hamas, and calls for Jewish genocide"
"Oh really? Let's keep saying it and defiantly refuse to use a different phrase"

That is a really bad look to people watching. Then it starts coming off as a dogwhistle because why keep saying it when you know how it can make people feel?

And with such a dicey conflict would you not want to make it as clear as possible that it is Israel's actions you are upset at, and not at all associated with anti-semitism?

CyricZ posted...

What would you say to people who feel that "Black Lives Matter" means "Kill All the Whites"?

I would say that's ridiculous because the phrase has not been used frequently in rhetoric from a genocidal terrorist group that wants to exterminate a global minority, and whites are not in any real danger.

Phrases are more than just their origin. Phrases can be co-opted unfortunately by movements and imbued with a lot of meaning beyond just what it says on the page. I shouldn't have to preach this to liberal people, this is something they preach all the time. And CyricZ you of all people I would expect to understand this because I see you as somebody that actually does attempt to engage on subjects and be fair from your genuine viewpoint.

I would think most of us, no matter where we fall on this issue, do not want to associate with hamas one bit.

*Sigh*

I don't know what I expected, but I wish people would at least realize, if nothing else, what harm they are doing to their own cause, when they are told these things, and call it tone policing and carry on.

Enclave posted...

So what do they hear when Netanyahu uses the phrase? When a Palestinian hears it Israel Jews hear "Kill all Jews" so when Netanyahu uses it should we all hear the leader of Israel saying to kill all Palestinians? I'm guessing the supporters of Israels genocide would somehow say no, it's different.

I would also feel very uncomfortable hearing Netanyahu saying that if I was Palestinian, and I think using this phrase at a pro-Israel rally would be equally messed up and upsetting. So yes, it goes both ways. Neither side should be using this phrase, in light of such a violent conflict, with genocidal influences on both sides.

DrizztLink posted...

You just want us to view it exclusively in a vacuum without the additional context of an actual factual ongoing genocide?

My point is that Israel committing genocide does not make such a loaded phrase ok to use anyway so it isn't worth having the discussion.

emblem-man posted...

Tbh, I think there is a risk from both sides, which is why I support a two state solution despite disagreeing in principle with a religious/ethnic majority State of any kind.

Im in agreement there, too, fwiw, but again, I didn't mean to make this a discussion about the conflict itself

CoyoteTheGreat posted...

I mean, it would depend on how it would be done. I think those pushing for the liberal binational State need to also be pushing for a very strong constitution, because there are a lot of people who hate each other in that region and a lot of work needs to be done to fix that. A lot of the people who are the most "afraid" though are just afraid that they will have the same thing done to them that they are trying to do to the Palestinians. Its a guilty conscience at work.

Cmon...a guilty conscience at work? so you think there's no risk of this, and you think that if the powers were reversed the Israelis would be treated much better....? They are treating the Palestinians horribly but are you acting like the fear is just guilt and not founded on anything real?

emblem-man posted...

And the same goes for Israel with the continuation of their settlers and their horrid genocidal language.

Agreed

emblem-man posted...

https://twitter.com/hutchinson/status/1783996727185596774?t=iHqghwmkwZnzyNko2yuNHg&s=19

Jeez...thanks for posting that.

I don't want to attribute actions of the few to the whole movement (as I said earlier, that is a conservative tactic to assume that the actions of the few means the whole movement is like that). So Im sure there are those who do not want to do that.

But many in this thread are defending it as well. It's just so strange because this is the exact type of thing that the people protesting are usually sensitive of. Yet people earlier in this thread were talking about "Jewish fee fees"

I think what makes this specific issue so hard, is that there are minorities on both sides of it. like in Israel, they have all the power. But across the world, Jewish people do not feel like a powerful majority. So people might be used to railing against oppression and powerful people, not realizing that there are also a vulnerable people hearing these words and taking them a different way. October 7th is still fresh in everybody's mind, and Israel's horrible actions do not erase how that felt either. Israel can also be a genocidal force, while also Jewish people are at risk of anti-semitic violence. Both can be true.

Metal_Gear_Raxis posted...

Considering how the chant and the ongoing genocide are inextricably linked, no you don't get to say, "that's off topic, we aren't talking about that :("

And also I genuinely don't care how they feel about the chant, there's a genocide going on.

You say the chant and the genocide, are linked, so it is relevant. If we are saying this chant makes Jewish people feel like you are calling for their genocide, because of the link with this phrase and a genocidal Hamas charter and statements from genocidal terrorists.... does Israel genociding Palestinians mean this is ok, especially in America, where the Jewish people here are not in Israel ? The reason it's not on topic is because having a heated debate about Israel's actions should not affect this chant, as Israel committing genocide still does not make it ok.

As somebody above said, what is the purpose of this specific chant, that even knowing it will make Jews feel like you're in return calling for THEIR genocide, you want to use it anyway?

IMNOTRAGED posted...

Getting strong "all lives matter" vibes here

Exactly. "All lives matter" is an innocent phrase on its surface, but it is far more loaded in reality and it might not vocally say anything against Black people, but it is hard to use innocently in context. So why not find a better phrase that is not loaded? It makes it hard to assume good faith.

emblem-man posted...

So to some Israel being gone as a (Jewish majority) State, means to them no more Jewish people. While to some, it just means a liberal binational State.

Yes, this is something that is true. It's hard to call it paranoia based on history. Being oppressed does not give an excuse to be oppressors. But regardless, talk of the dissolution of Israel gives very valid fears to some Jewish people that it would mean a mass killing of Jews.

But even then, it doesn't make a person anti-semitic. Still, this topic will always be loaded to Jewish people, who might be a strong force in Israel, but not world-wide.

The specific phrase in question, especially how it has been used by Hamas representatives, makes the fear feel even more visceral.

ClayGuida posted...

UCLA had to cancel their classes because a violent group attacked pro Palestinian supporters. Why?

Let's not play this game...it's a conservative tactic. (What I mean is, highlighting an individual instance and trying to use it to frame one side as violent, etc)