Lurker > Ninja4820

Kind of an older Millennial thing. Tbh that show did not age well at all, but I def remember enjoying it back in the day as a young teen.

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KodyKeir posted...

They are going to drop race walking

THEY'RE GETTING RID OF DEATH MARCH??

This is ridiculous. Wtf.

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JOExHIGASHI posted...

Smash tv

This is the most interesting answer I've seen so far. Man did TV ever fall off the cultural map... It's like when you watch an old sci-fi and they use television video phones. Didn't see cell phones coming at all, did ya?? I think people today really can't appreciate the particularly dystopian angle some futurists looked upon TV with back in the late 80s and 90s. Nowadays it's all about the internet, Augmented Reality, etc.

I guess other good answers are all the obvious "adult" games (Conker, BMX XXX, Extreme Beach Volleyball, etc.), although that's a little obvious.

Hmm, maybe Maniac Mansion and Zombies At My Neighbors? There was a whole 50s cheesy monster vibe that was popular back then (alongside Goosebumps books). You don't really see that much anymore.

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This is the second topic today I've read about the word "Demi." This is not usually a common word for me.

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Far-Queue posted...

Rainier than usual

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DocDelicious posted...

I'm of the exact opposite mindset. Even things that are possible for me to do in real life are better in games.

Take a simple example like snowboarding. If I play Steep I can go snowboarding year-round regardless of the weather, for a fraction of the cost, and zero downtime. I'm never uncomfortable, I don't get hungry at any point, it doesn't make me tired, and there's no risk of injury.

Really?? I'm honestly asking, do you honestly feel that way? I've only gone snowboarding a couple of times, but those couple of times were way more memorable for me than playing SSX Tricky. I also have way better memories from playing sports in high school, as opposed to playing sports video games.

I mean, if you honestly feel that way, then cool. Glad you're getting your kicks in, I suppose. But do you really? You don't think there's an element of delusion in this at all? I hope you won't be offended by me speculating about that, but it's just hard to believe.

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(a) Most gaming isn't so fun that you couldn't replace it with something better and not lose out -- like, when's the last time you truly genuinely smiled from playing a game? I really think, for most gamers, it's more of a "time sink" or an addiction than something truly enjoyable. I notice for myself, I'll start a new game, and feel this is ridiculous compulsion to complete it, even if I don't really enjoy it. Sometimes, I'll stop and ask myself, is this a game or is this an obligation? I look at people who have game backlogs, and it looks more like a to-do list of tasks rather than something they're truly pursuing for the fun of it. This is obviously a very subjective thing, but I think people really underestimate the extent to which a lot of gaming is driven by desires OTHER than actually genuine "fun." I look back at Halo LAN parties, laughing and joking with my friends, and it's like, YES, that was FUN. But I look at what most of my gaming experiences like that have been like since then, I look at what the experiences of my friends are who are still into games (and are to a greater extent than I am), and I don't really see that level of joy very often. Finally, I think it goes without saying, but it's also a question of how much someone moderates their gaming, and I do think games have gotten to where they really, really draw people in and consume time to a degree that they didn't in the past -- to the point where I think it's gotten unhealthy.

(b) I think there's a lot of delusion around this hobby. I touched on this in the previous section, but I really think there's a lot of people who don't realize how badly gaming eats into the quality of their life. Not saying anyone here fits that bill! (I don't know you guys). And I certainly know some people in real life who manage it as a hobby responsibly, but I would say probably half of all the people I know who game don't realize how its affecting them (or are in denial).

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Zeus posted...

You literally argued for games as a deliberate form of escapism. Alcohol is another deliberate form of escapism. If somebody couldn't get their mind off the world through games when they wanted to think about something else, alcohol would be on the table.

So your argument is that if person X is seeking some form of escapism, at least games are better than alcohol? I... guess that could be true? I just have a very hard time imagining a person who would use one instead of the other. Like, yes, I can see they both can be used as forms of escapism, but they seem so radically different that I have a hard time imagining they're fungible. But let's assume for the sake of argument that yes, someone could use video games to escape instead of alcohol -- how often is that the case? The closest parallel I can think of is people using methodone to wean themselves off of heroine. But methodone is a controlled substance, and even still, it became rampantly well known for how often people abused it. If video games are to be considered a good thing because they function as a substitute for some other WORSE thing, then you'd have to ask:
(a) how often are people actually making that substitution
(b) how often are other people who don't even need it for that purpose abusing it?
I have a hard time imagining that the few very fringe cases of people who use it as a legitimately good substitute for something worse outweigh the number of people who just flat out abuse it on its own.

Zeus posted...

It doesn't have to be "worse", it just has to be on par. Granted, there are certainly a lot of things worse than video games, and I'd be surprised if you can't imagine them.

It's not that worse things can't be imagined, it's that it's hard to imagine worse things being realistically pursued. People keep citing things like drugs, alcohol, crime, as worse alternatives. Do you guys really think the average gamer, if he didn't have games, would be doing those things??

But ok, let's address the "it doesn't have to be worse, just on par" argument. Fair enough, that's more interesting I think. Imo watching TV is actually worse (no argument there guys!), web surfing is probably on par, and reading books slides from on par (trashy fiction) to better and better (non-fiction, etc.). I realize there's an element in subjectivity in terms of determining what's "better/best" since we're talking about entertainment, but outside of TV, web surfing, and reading, it just feels like it's (generally) only on the way up. Like, of the people I know who grew out of games, or gave up games or w/e, I exclusively see improvements. I don't know anyone who gave up games as a hobby and took up... I don't know what you guys think could even happen... took up drugs as a hobby? started beating their partner as a hobby? Like, give me something realistic as an alternative here.

Zeus posted...

That's a fallacious argument since so much gaming is communal. It's basically just a different venue for interaction. And there are certainly a lot of games now that foster communities -- and, to some extent, we're kinda on one now.

Gaming can be communal, but the question is how often it truly is, and how meaningful that community is. If it's a gaming club in real life, that wouldn't be so bad (but how many of those exist? outside of occasional college tournaments, I never saw any...).

So I assume you're talking about online community. But how good are those, really? I remember being in high school, and using that very same line to my folks, "I'm playing online with other people, I'm not just hanging out alone." To be honest, looking back, I wish I'd replaced that online time with more real life experiences. There were some cool parts, and playing an online game with others is certainly a good alternative if, say, you don't have any real life friends, but for the average person, you'd probably get more out of real life experiences. By way of comparison, every guy I knew played online games a ton when they were in HS/college -- none of the ones I've talked to keep up with online friends from those days at all. I have a few from an old MMO that I added on Facebook but, you know, once we stopped playing that MMO together, we didn't have any other real connection! I'm sure some people do make some great friendships (I've heard some have even met their spouses in this way), but not only do I doubt that it outweighs the people who lose out on better, real life experiences, but I think it's not even close in how skewed it is.

Also, yes, people do still belong to clubs, but google an article about that book Bowling Alone -- it's just not even close. Clubs are dying. Notice also that younger generations are well documented as having smaller circles of close friends than older ones.

Zeus posted...

Not for nothing, but it kinda feels like you're chasing a sense of productivity rather than looking for actual productivity.

Hmm, that's an interesting thought. Does more meaningful entertainment arise from some kind of sublated desire for productivity? I think when most people here are speaking about "productivity," they're referring to something which:
(a) makes you money
(b) improves your skills
Obviously, I do think that if you can preserve the element of fun while gaining either of these things, then yes, it's a net gain to switch out gaming for a hobby which achieves either (a) or (b).

BUT, that's really not what I'm driving at. I admit that gaming, as entertainment, is for the purpose of having fun, and I have nothing against a hobby that's purely for fun. Even in purely utilitarian terms, I still think it's a loss. The main issues as I see it are that:

(CONTINUED NEXT POST)

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*cracks knuckles* Alright, there's a lot of weak as fuck arguments in this topic. I'm going to organize these points in a way that doesn't address people personally (cuz there's already enough massive cope going on). No but seriously, I hope everyone will argue/debate in a jovial way, I'm not trying to take anyone down here or shame people, just have some fun discussion.

1. People would just be doing something else/worse if they weren't playing games.

They'd obviously be doing something else, but whether it's worse is a bit hard to imagine. Someone mentioned alcohol. I can't imagine much of a correlation between video games and avoiding alcohol. Anecdotally, some kids I knew in high school who drank played video games, some didn't. Of those who didn't drink, some played games, some didn't. I couldn't say it was really skewed in any direction, but I'm almost certainly sure that games never factored into anyone's decision to drink or not to drink.

More importantly though, this argument could be generalized to ANY hobby. I.e. "if you play football, you won't have time for alcohol," "if you join band, you won't have time for alcohol." But the point is that many of those hobbies might be better than gaming. This argument doesn't seem to help gaming as a hobby.

Finally, there's the idea that, if someone weren't playing video games, they'd be doing something equally worthless, which is something I don't necessarily buy. I think for most people you basically run out of worthless time sinks after video games, TV, and web surfing, before you're almost forced to do something moderately better, like read a book. What did our grandparents do, at a time before endless TV channels and entertainment? A lot of them belonged to clubs. There's a great book called Bowling Alone, which really goes into how much American social life has deteriorated. I suspect, if people didn't have those three things (games, tv, internet), they would be much more active or involved with other people.

2. Variants of "lol, being productive."

I realize I mentioned the word "productive" in the second sentence, but in the third sentence I specifically mentioned that there's plenty of ways to have fun. I haven't seen anyone in this topic make any sort of argument like, "give up all forms of fun, only work, only focus on making money, or self-improvement, or etc." I suspect this issue struck a lot of chords because, let's be honest, what gamer hasn't heard the "be more productive!" line from someone else? It's condescending, and fetishizes the hustle life, which is bullshit, life shouldn't just be about work.

That said, the real point here is that, if you're going to allot some segment of your life to entertainment, there's certainly better/worse ways to do it. Shooting heroin? Probably quite a bit worse unless you go on to be Lou Reed. Learning a new language, joining a club, building something, carving something, etc. -- are probably better ways to spend your time. The argument that "it could be worse," is not a compelling one!

3. Games can be educational/improved my coordination/etc.

Yes! Games can be educational, and can help with things like improving coordination. But how many games really do that? I know I hated most educational games as a kid (cuz they were just bad games, usually). This is a sad thing imo. I've used game-like websites to learn languages, to help prepared for standardized tests, etc., and that format really helped. But we all know the vast vast majority of games have little to no educational value. The same goes for coordination -- how many people really get any benefit from that?

4. As an industry, gaming employees many people and improves the economy.

Broken window fallacy -- yes, a great deal of income and economic benefit is generated by gaming, but those people would've had to work somewhere. They could just as hypothetically be employed in some other, better industry -- saving endangered pandas, curing cancer, etc.

5. This is a weird topic to bring up on a gaming board.

Is it? It's about gaming. Everyone here is interested in gaming. The GFaqs crowd is generally getting older/wiser now. No reason it couldn't be an interesting discussion, right?

Those are all COUNTER POINTS. I'd like to give a few AFFIRMATIVE ARGUMENTS against gaming now.

1. Gaming isn't terrible, but it falls on the net negative side of things.

This is my main assertion. There are very, very few instances in which I can think of it being a clear net positive. At the end of the day, it's purpose is entertainment, and while not the worst form of entertainment, it's far from the best, and probably on the lower end of the scale. Obviously, if you can play in moderation, you're fine, and I certainly won't judge you for it, but can we at least both be honest with ourselves and admit it falls into the category of "tolerable vice?" Like, I wouldn't proudly declare myself to be a gamer anymore than I would proudly declare myself to be someone who drinks or smokes. Also, if you want a quick rule of thumb for "where on the scale does hobby X fall," just ask yourself how would affect other people's perception of you. Again, just a rule of thumb... but I can't think of many people that would be impressed by a gaming hobby, and it would certainly hurt in many circumstances.

2. Modern games are addictive in a way that older games weren't.

Playing NES or even SNES era games, there was really only so long you could play a game before you just ran out of stuff to do or got bored. RPGs were considered kind of an exception, as a longer-form of play, and sure you might be able to theoretically play Street Fighter or something competitive endlessly, but even then... kids would still get bored eventually and go outside.

But nowadays, I've noticed companies have gotten REALLY good at making games endlessly attractive. Even something that should be short, like a platformer, seems to pull you back in with tons of achievements, speed running competitions, etc. etc. And that's obviously to say nothing of games that literally could go on forever like Minecraft or any MMO. I really think there are a lot more people that are addicted to games today than ever before.

Eh, those are the main things. I can think of a few other points, but I think those two are the big ones, and I don't want to detract from them at the moment.

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Just wondering how many other people agree with me on this. I feel like there's a lot, LOT of people who would probably be doing more productive things with their lives. Sure, games are fun, but there's better, healthier ways to have fun. I can't really think of anything which I was able to get out of a video game that I couldn't -- hypothetically at least -- have gotten somewhere better. I've also seen many people who absolutely use video games as a distraction for avoiding real problems. I'm not sure they'd be able to do that so easily if their hobby was a sport, an instrument, wood carving, etc. Games are just way more addictive and time consuming now than they used to be. Although I will say, I do think games are at least better than watching TV since they're at least relatively engaging.

Again, I love me some games, but I place them squarely in the "tolerable vice" category of my life lol.

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