Lurker > MariaTaylor

yes

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Er, are you sure about Lightning? I just did a Ctrl+F on this page and the previous page and I could only find Lens save and my save.

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Rosalina (Super Mario series)

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Nami (One Piece)
Claire "Lightning" Farron (Final Fantasy XIII series)

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Anarchy Stocking (Panty and Stocking)
Samus Aran (Metroid series)

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Morrigan Aensland (Darkstalkers series)
Nessa (Pokemon Sword/Shield)

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Variety is more interesting. And yes.

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What's your point? If you have a point that you're trying to make, then make it. Don't hide behind sarcasm as a way to avoid defending your stance.

Are you saying that Steven Universe is NOT a cartoon that features mundane family drama? Because it definitely is. And showing one clip that contains other types of content does not disprove the litany of other materials that take place in the show.

Are you saying that Garnet never becomes emotional or loses her cool over a family drama type situation? Once again, posting a SINGLE clip of a different type of scene taking place does not disprove the fact that Garnet has ever lost her cool in a more mundane situation.


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It's been a while since I've seen Steven Universe, but I do seem to remember there are episodes where Garnet gets emotional and loses her cool. I think it's disingenuous to make the argument that it'd be impossible to affect her mental state when the mundane family drama of a PG-13 cartoon seems to be able to do it.

Anyway, if Deathstroke has gear made of Promethium, I'm going to vote for him. I think that will give him the capability to harm her, and the 'time to plan' phase that is given explicitly in this battle is a huge advantage for a character like him. I think it would be a hard battle, but he could win this.


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Euphemia "Euphie" li Britannia (Code Geass)

please save Morrigan

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just noting that Lightning is marked as '0' saves, but has a name listed next to her. so I'm not sure which is the error and if she has 0 or 1 saves.

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Nessa (Pokemon Sword/Shield)
Nami (One Piece)

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Morrigan Aensland (Darkstalkers series)
Anarchy Stocking (Panty and Stocking)

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Boa Hancock (One Piece)

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Claire "Lightning" Farron (Final Fantasy XIII series

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Monika (Doki Doki Literature Club)

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Morrigan Aensland (Darkstalkers series)
Samus Aran (Metroid series)

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Anarchy Stocking (Panty and Stocking)
Nessa (Pokemon Sword/Shield)

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I can verify that this explanation does sound accurate to me, and I really have no dog in this race. In fact I'd say that I am pretty underwhelmed by Umineko, while A Song of Ice and Fire is a series I love greatly.

But lets be real, Gregor is just a really big guy. The idea of him tanking magical blasts powerful enough to pin down a dragon is uhh.... not realistic at all.


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Yeah my knowledge of the last few episodes in particular is very hazy because I mostly remember not liking them very much. But given what Drak has posted above, I'm going to vote for Battler here. If you take his power set at face value, he can at the very least summon magical blue stakes to impale Gregor and take him down. Gregor is strong but he can't handle magical attacks like this, and he's nowhere near as durable as a dragon.


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Yes and no. I think there is an argument to be made that Battler automatically loses here because people believe that his powers won't work. I don't agree with that opinion, but I do respect it, and I've done my best to show both sides.

Personally I think it comes down to whether the Meta Battler character can use his powers against characters in the same plane as himself, since I think -- while they aren't exactly in the meta plane -- the battle should take place in a 'neutral arena' where Battler has access to his powers and Gregor is still a physical beast.

I think the important question is what Battler is actually capable of, outside of manipulating the game board.

Like in the scene I mentioned above, Witch Erika was able to restrain Meta Battler using her powers... but this sort of only happened because he temporarily gave up and I think lost an argument. So could Battler use his magic to restrain Gregor in a similar way? Would he need to drag him into some kind of debate to use this power? In that case, I think Gregor wins.

Then again, you have characters like Dlanor who are summoned by Erika. The thing is that I can't remember if there are any scenes where Dlanor actually DOES anything to Meta Battler. I mostly remember her showing up and talking a lot, and making a lot of threats. But if a summoned piece like Dlanor can't actually attack or interact with a meta character, then being able to summon pieces is effectively a useless ability. Battler could do it, but I'm wondering whether the pieces can actually affect Gregor or if they'll only assist with trying to drag him into debates.

Gregor is not going to debate, he's a season arena combatant who has an amazing track record in fighting duels. If he knows he's here to fight, he's going to fight. The only way I would vote for Battler is if someone can post evidence of feats where summoned pieces like the Stakes, Dlanor, or others, are SHOWN to actually attack and directly harm or restrain characters on the meta plane and NOT just interact with the game board.

So there is an argument, it's just one that is tough to understand if you haven't already read Umineko. Because most of what I just said probably makes very little sense.

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Anagram posted...

Battler sounds preposterously overcomplicated.

Yeah. I just looked back up at what I typed and I went to myself... 'yes, really. that was the best summary I could come up with and it still ended up that long.'

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The problem is that while I've read both Umineko and Game of Thrones, I'm not going to sit here and say I'm an expert on Umineko. And it's been a while since I've read it. The worst part is that you have to break down multiple steps of logic, and I think this is why people "Get a headache" when trying to read his wiki page. The best way I can try to help summarize it, is like this:

First: A lot of what happens in Umineko, the visual novel, are non-canon events that did not actually happen. Almost all of the fantasy scenes, meta scenes, and even most of the game boards are fabrications of events. They represent something that happened in reality, sometimes, and sometimes they don't. And it's not always clear which.

With that in mind, you have to decide if you believe

A. Because the fantasy scenes "didn't actually happen," this means that Battler can't do anything that happened in any of those scenes. In which case, he jobs to Gregor immediately. Just like how the real Battler would easily die in reality if he was on an island that blew up or if someone shot him in the face with a shotgun.

or

B. Because the majority of "Umineko" is spent reading these fantasy scenes, you just accept that the version of Battler that we're talking about is the character who is featured in most of the story of Umineko. He's a meta character who exists in a plane outside of most of the 'game boards.' There is a 'piece' version of himself which interacts with versions of the world. And "meta" Battler, at some point, becomes a Game Master and gains control over the board -- including but not limited to the ability to summon powerful pawns who can use magic and other abilities that easily nullifies any amount of conventional force.

Unfortunately, that's just the first step of logic. Obviously if you believe A, then Battler loses. If you believe B, then more questions arise. And so...

Second, Let's assume that we're using Meta Battler for this.

2a. Meta Battler exists in a meta plane outside of the battlefield, and Gregor will only be able to interact with the 'game piece' Battler who exist on the current game board. Meta Battler can summon any pawns that he wants onto the game board and use them to defeat Gregor.

2b. Meta Battler and Gregor exist in the same plane. Gregor should be able to interact with him and attack him through conventional means.

If you think 2a is correct, the Battler pretty much auto wins. If you think 2b is correct... yeah, sorry. We're STILL not done here. And so...

Third; Assuming we're using Meta Battler, I'm not 100% sure how his powers work against other beings that exist on the same plane as him. We have seen Witches summon pieces to the Meta plane, but probably one of the following scenarios is true...

3a. Meta Battler has access to his powers and can summon pieces to the meta plane, and they can attack other characters who exist in the same plane as him. In this case, they should be able to defeat Gregor with ease.

3b. Meta Battler has some kind of magical abilities that he could use to instantly neutralize Gregor, in which case he should defeat Gregor with ease.

3c. Meta Battler doesn't have any magical abilities, and his pawns can be summoned but are effectively useless against fellow characters who exist in the same plane as him. If this is true, Gregor should defeat Battler with ease.

I'm sitting stuck somewhere on this last point due to my lack of ability to clearly remember every scene in the story. That's why I'm curious to know if there are scenes where Battler uses his magical abilities against characters who exist in the same plane and, to a lesser extent, if there are other witches who do this.

Erika using her Witch of Truth abilities to restrain Battler comes to mind, but he was also able to break out of this just by using logic. Although this is maybe a point in favor of Battler's magical resistance and less about what a Witch is capable of.

Basically, I'm wondering if there's a scene where Summoner Battler ever actually directly uses his magic to restrain or harm someone like Bernkastel, Beatrice, or even Erika. Or at least a scene where he summons any pieces to the meta plane and uses them to do something.

I personally believe that we are using Meta Battler (because it'd be a pointless match otherwise), but I do give Gregor the benefit of the doubt that they should exist on the same plane. This means that Gregor has a chance to face Battler directly and harm him. The only question left is whether or not Meta characters in Umineko can easily overpower people who exist in the meta plane, or if they can only do that to game pieces that exist on the game board.

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So the issue with Battler is that it's difficult to explain what he can or can't do without spoiling the story of Umineko, AND also what he can actually do also depends on HOW you interpret the story of Umineko, and it can be a little difficult to understand anyway. Like what was the point of it all and what does it "really" mean.

The people who have read Umineko (and are more likely to be biased in favor of Battler) have a unique advantage here. They get to control the narrative on what he's capable of doing... because they are the ones who get to tell non-readers what Battler can do, based on their favorable interpretation of his abilities. Moreso than almost any other character, Battler benefits heavily from the ability of his fanbase to control the narrative and feed the most impressive version of Battler to the uninitiated.

This is why some people think he's busted and some people think he's just a nobody.

As for me, I'm still not sure exactly how I interpret the story of Umineko and thus how powerful I think that he is. Are the fantasy scenes in the story any more or less valid just because they are fantasy? Or do we consider them part of the canon simply because we spent so much time reading them?

Putting all that aside, it's been a while since I've read, but... do any of the Witches or Game Masters (particularly Battler), ever display the ability to actually fight enemies on the meta plane with powers beyond their own natural ability? I understand that being able to control the game board is one thing, but if you're not actually any stronger in terms of your direct capabilities, I still lean toward Battler getting easily defeated by someone like Gregor.

The only way I see Battler winning is if he has game board like control over Gregor, and can essentially warp the battlefield into a story of his own design where he wins -- likely by overwhelming Gregor with pawns that can't be defeated through conventional means.

But if he does have feats where he directly uses magic to attack or influence other people in the meta plane, I'd be more open to the idea that he could face Gregor directly and potentially win. Gregor essentially has no answers to bunny girls shooting lasers at him, or Battler trapping him in a mind prison where he's forced to witness his own death played over and over again in an infinite time loop of tragedy. But if Battler can't do any of these things, well... Battler has no defense against just being sliced in half.


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This is annoying to me because I may or may not have one (seriously, I can't remember if I kept it or not) and it would be sitting in... a box. Somewhere. Now I feel like I need to unpack and search every single box and the only alternative is that maybe the house will burn down from an exploding PSP.


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Not everything needs to be a rule. If someone is acting with obvious ill intent you can just ignore their attempts to stir up drama, and/or punish them accordingly.


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https://i.imgur.com/r1TvqqJ.png

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Jessica Rabbit (Who Framed Roger Rabbit?)

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Nami (One Piece)
Nessa (Pokemon Sword/Shield)

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Morrigan Aensland (Darkstalkers series)
Anarchy Stocking (Panty and Stocking)

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I think Popeye has some weaknesses, like the fact that his big attacks always seem to require a lot of wind up and exaggerated motions. Not everyone is going to stand there like Bluto and take it. Though I don't think this prevents him from grabbing someone quickly when the situation calls for it. It's true that he might or might not be willing to fight her, but, this is a contest where the characters are compelled to fight each other -- so I typically find that kind of reasoning shaky at BEST and it doesn't really seem airtight in this case either.

The big thing for me is not even the difference in power, but the difference in durability. Popeye can comfortably soak ANY attack she is capable of launching. If there was a nuclear launch site on the battlefield and she gained access to it, and pelted him with nukes, he would probably just punch then into the sun or weather the explosions without taking any damage.

My logic is similar to Drak's way of thinking above.

Literally what the fuck is she going to do other than rewind time and keep repeatedly losing?

POPEYE, comfortably

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Nessa (Pokemon Sword/Shield
Ivy Valentine (Soul Calibur series)

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Steiner posted...

Because like half this board is apparently twelve

my post was moderated and I used the word 'butt'

this is not some twelve year old shit, this is like some five year old shit

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Anarchy Stocking (Panty and Stocking)
Morrigan Aensland (Darkstalkers series)

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I have a new modration

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I would lick my waifu's butt if she was real and I was trapped under her

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Nami (One Piece)
Nessa (Pokemon Sword/Shield)

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Anarchy Stocking (Panty and Stocking)
Morrigan Aensland (Darkstalkers series)

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There's a few Dreamcast games that I thought looked pretty cool, but I never owned a Dreamcast or had an opportunity to play them. I couldn't name the games now but if I really wanted to look up a list and some screenshots I could figure out what they were.

Were the games actually good and are they playable now? Who knows. I'm usually occupied enough doing other things that it's never seriously crossed my mind to look into the Dreamcast library.


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Forceful_Dragon posted...

I am fully aware and take responsibility for all of this. I still wouldn't say we were "unprepared" because we had a lot of supplies on hand, but in hindsight leaving the trail to reach the helipad was probably a mistake.

unprepared in terms of knowledge and experience.

Forceful_Dragon posted...

The rattlesnake was ON the trail.

and the fact that you saw a rattlesnake ON the trail means that there was at least one rattlesnake in the area. and by stepping OFF the trail, you increased your chances of accidentally stepping on one. you were very lucky that you encountered it ON the trail where it was more easily spotted.

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Forceful_Dragon posted...

Oh and I forgot there was a rattlesnake I had to chuck rocks at until it ran away at one point because it was blocking the trail.

jesus christ this is exactly what I was thinking when I typed up stuff about additional threats

PLEASE DO NOT EVER LEAVE THE TRAIL, especially amateur hikers

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No offense, and I'm glad you're okay, but it sounds like a lot of this could have been prevented. It sounds like you went in very unprepared and you're pretty lucky that nothing worse than this happened. I'm also not sure why you would have left the trail. I can't imagine that this would raise your chances of survival in any scenario, and it seems like this is the reason why things turned out so poorly for you. Maybe you know all of this already, but I still feel like it needs to be said because "wow bro I'm glad you're okay" is not very useful information to hear in this situation.

Drinking too much water while doing intense physical activity can lead to nausea, cramps, and sickness.
Salty "snacks" and foods will contribute to dehydration.
It sounds like you might have actually done this to yourself and then wandered off the trail, exerted yourself exploring many dead ends that could have lead to nasty falls or getting stuck at the bottom of an incline, exposed yourself to an unfamiliar water source which (besides other present dangers) likely left you wearing wet clothes (bad for many reasons), exposed yourselves to other threats that generally don't appear on the trail but might appear in other nearby areas, got yourself stung by a scorpion, and just barely made it back because you were lucky enough to find people who could get a ranger to bring you back to the trail and escort you to safety
Don't leave the trail. The trail exists for a reason.

I'm sure plenty of people who are reading this are going to think I'm just being a dick for no reason but if you have any sense in your head, and ever plan to go out into the wilderness, please try to remember what I'm saying and how important it actually is.

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I think the last truly great moment in the Cell Saga is when Vegeta beats the ever living fuck out of Semi-Perfect Cell... and then decides to let Cell absorb android 18 and become Perfect. It's such a completely STUPID thing to do but it's so amazing in that moment because it's such a VEGETA thing to do. The fact that he gets his comeuppance just adds to how well done this little sequence of events is. The stuff after that was good, but nothing in Dragonball ever reached the heights of the King Piccolo-all-the-way-up-through-the-Androids stretch of arcs that were all consistently fantastic.

Vegeta's sacrifice against Buu is probably one of the ONLY great moments in the Buu Saga.

So yeah, Vegeta being a great character is par for the course.


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PerfectChaosZ posted...

Yeah I dont enjoy babysitter Piccolo and the annoying kids. How do Kid Trunks and Goten manage to be a zillion times more annoying than DB Goku or Kid Gohan? In a way shorter amount of screen time!

when goku was a kid the story revolved around him. he was mostly interacting with allies close to his own age, or mentor figures who stayed out of things. the perspective was very different.

kid gohan is a bit more up in the air. he spent a lot of time getting his ass kicked, and he generally took the situation seriously and feared for his own life. he was a big part of the reason that piccolo developed into more of a heroic character, and you can even argue that without his presence on namek that even vegeta wouldn't have started on his own redemption arc either. some people, like myself, aren't personally satisfied with gohan becoming the hero of the cell arc, but he's not an annoying character at his core.

kid trunks and goten are a whole different game. they come as a pair, doubling the amount of annoyance you get from them. they don't take the situation seriously, they don't fear for their own lives. they spent a lot of time goofing off.. and then they're rewarded by getting fusions and power ups that make them even more powerful. they do not interact with other characters development or character arcs in any meaningful ways (within the scope of DBZ, I can't speak for Super)... they just don't add anything to the story except goofing off and being rewarded with easy power ups.

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SeabassDebeste posted...

but it wasn't forced by the author; it was forced by a character. goku acted like a fucking maniac and he almost failed by tipping his hand, and he very rightly gets called on his bullshit. but it's only because of his bullshit that they're able to save the world from cell.

It's ironic that you start this by saying it wasn't forced by the author, but the author had direct, divine control over every single thing that you listed next. toriyama didn't have to write goku to behave this way, or to make it that the only way to beat Cell was by having gohan interfere. he could have written it in a way that was more satisfying to me... and that is the exact sum of my complaints: I personally wasn't satisfied with how the narrative was handled.

SovietOmega posted...

iirc wasn't there some theory that saiyan/human mixing accounted for some ease in obtaining the ssj transformation?

sure, but once again -- my issue is NOT with the lack of an explanation. my issue is that I just didn't like the direction that the story went.


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That is a good point about future gohan being weak, though. You can still chalk it up to him failing to reach his innate potential, but at least it does show that he wasn't going to become strong "no matter what." Heck, the androids of the future were even stated to be weaker!


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Vegeta's transformation isn't great either but at least it was revealed for the first time in a cool way. Future Trunks transformation was directly from the result of Future Gohan dying.

I mean, I think liking gohan is fine. if you like him I'm not going to stop you. I'm just explaining why -I- don't like him, and it has nothing to do with whether or not he was foreshadowed.


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pjbasis posted...

I think it was foreshadowed enough.

MariaTaylor posted...

foreshadowing is not the only aspect by which we gauge the quality of writing.

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Emeraldegg posted...

It may have been rapid, but I felt it was far from unearned or forced. This to me was the payoff of many arcs of foreshadowing.

I understand feeling this way, I just totally disagree. I think Gohan's character is pretty whack honestly. like the entire point of the Saiyan and the Freiza saga -- the entire point of the introduction of Power Levels -- was to display the narrative foil between Goku and the Freiza empire. how Saiyans had their power levels measured at birth, and their worth to society was pre-determined.

Goku, this saiyan who was discarded, due to his lack of potential, was able to rise up and become the legendary Super Saiyan that Freiza always feared... because Freiza just didn't "get" it. he thought that your innate power, how you were born, meant EVERYTHING, and like Vegeta and all of the Saiyans, and everyone else in this empire, they had a blind spot toward how a "weak" planet like earth could produce such powerful fighters despite their lack of innate power from birth. the fact that Goku was raised on such a planet was a blessing in disguise because he learned many things that you could never learn as part of Freiza's empire.

oh, but Gohan? yeah, he was born with this immense power deep inside of him that was always going to make him powerful. it just spits in the face of the entire two arcs that came before it. it says that Gohan's worth WAS pre-determined. just because it was foreshadowed doesn't mean that I have to be satisfied with it. foreshadowing is not the only aspect by which we gauge the quality of writing.

lastly, while Gohan reaching super saiyan in the hyperbolic time chamber might not seem as bad as some of the later examples, it's still a case of someone reaching that status with no real impetus. he just trained really hard in isolation and reached an emotionally volatile state which Goku could only achieve by watching his best friend murdered before his eyes. Gohan was the gatekeeper, and he opened the door for all of the bullshit discount super saiyan transformations that came after him. I just cannot be happy with this, personally.


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pjbasis posted...

I don't think you can have a normal tournament with the main characters at that point. They can fly and shoot ki blasts that can casually destroy the whole stadium. They would have to be fighting nerfed or like in the sky where no one can see them anyway. They already destroyed the ring out rules once they learned to fly, something that was already true at the end of dragonball but didn't really become the norm till after.

I think it's fine. The tournament just needs to be the characters taking turns fighting each other in a bracket format. It's for us, the viewers, not for the audience in the stands. We already had matches in Dragonball where the viewers in the audience couldn't even follow the action because it was moving too fast.

Whether they fight inside of a ring or not is less of an issue, I'm more just interested in seeing the tournament arc used as a narrative device -- something we sorely missed out on.

pjbasis posted...

I think you'd have to be already bothered that the all SSJ transformations have been outscaled already.

believe it or not, this DOES describe my exact feelings. I already thought it was stupid that Gohan had such an easy time going SSJ as a kid just by training in the hyperbolic time chamber. him going SSJ2 and defeating Cell felt incredibly forced and unearned. and this is coming from someone who read the entire manga just two years ago, so this is all still fresh in my mind.

I know the story is that Toriyama wanted to phase out Goku and replace him with Gohan, but then had to bring Goku back later on because fans weren't happy with Gohan as the protagonist. I don't know how true this rumor actually is, but I can say that I personally felt pretty unsatisfied with Gohan's sudden rise to power and everyone accepting that he was the only hope for defeating Cell. especially when you remember he was 11 at the time.

yes, Goku was powerful at 11. but he wasn't the most powerful. and he was nowhere near THIS powerful.

Tom Bombadil posted...

also did MWC die or something

I legitimately don't think MWC has ever responded to a post I have made in any topic. whether he has me on ignore or he just manually ignores my posts, I don't know.

PerfectChaosZ posted...

Yeah but I meant more like Videl and cop Krillin and Tien have to fight, not the kids, no saiyans at all.

also joining in with this response. the bio broly thing sounds cool on paper, but then they tie it in with the crappy super saiyan children characters that I -DON'T- want to see. honestly I'd rather get a movie or an arc where Vegeta has a chance to shine and doesn't have to settle for the second place jobber role. the last thing I want to see is overpowered child characters forced into the spotlight when characters like Piccolo and Vegeta were neglected and underused.


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