Lurker > IronTusk

Ooh nice, is that Brimstone + Limit Break+ for the strength scaling? Great synergy there. Also Toy Ornithopter + potion belt is great. Hope you landed on a nice energy relic after this fight.

Nightmare + Wraith Form + Snecko Eye + Well-laid Plans is the ultra rare dream run when you just win. Like Corruption + Dead Branch.

When you get Wraith Form, absolutely seek out Orange Pellets. It will cleanse the dex debuff.

DevsBro posted...

So after getting my first act 3 victory as on my 4th run as The Silent, I got my first act 4 victory AND my first A1 victory on my 5th run as The Silent.

The Silent is downright broken.

Congrats!

Silent rules at lower Ascensions (shivs are fun as hell) but the issue is that when playing A20 the only strats really viable for her are poison stacking and lucking into intangible through wraithform + apparition. She was my favorite character by far up until around A11 and then other characters lap her. It's a shame. While select cards like Wraith Form, Corpse Explosion, and Catalyst are unbelievable, she just has an overwhelming number of terrible cards at higher levels so she's inconsistent.

And the devs made it worse by adding a mana cost to Well-Laid Plans. :(

Amazing band!

DevsBro posted...

Alright

Pure Water
Bag of Preparation
Slaver's Collar

Establishment
Empty Body
Eruption+
Conclude+
Follow-Up
4 x Strike
Deceive Reality
2 x Halt
Vigilance
Rushdown
Pressure Points
Parasite
Weave
4 x Defend

I took 68 damage. IIRC, it was the whatchamamonster that casts hex on you and I kept drawing a bajillion Dazed cards and could neither defend nor attack.

-You didn't remove any Defends or Strikes. Watcher is the only character where you usually remove Defends first.
-Pressure Points is not good. In the extremely niche situations it is passable (to remove artifact or for tiny cycling decks), your deck isn't built to service those edge cases.
-You have Establishment, but no Meditate or Retain verbs (except for Deceive Reality after playing it twice) to use it.
-You have Weave but no Scry to use it.
-You only got one relic in all of Act 1. Your pathing wasn't aggressive enough. Aim for more Elites, stores, and events.
-You probably don't need 2 Halts.
-Slaver's Collar doesn't help you in hallway fights so you probably had energy issues.
-You don't have any cheap entries intro Calm to help with those energy issues.
-You have a curse (Parasite) which seems to indicate you didn't fight the mushroom rats in Act 1. Always fight them, they give a good relic. My bad if you picked it up an other way, but there's no reason to take curses in Act 1 95% of the time. The smaller the deck the worse curses hurt. Only exception is the super powerful relic that auto-upgrades cards each turn.
-Rushdown is great (because card draw is amazing), but try to find more sources of wrath to abuse it.

Basically there are some overly conservative pathing decisions and your cards/relics have no synergy.

PMarth2002 posted...

I'm curious, how many elites do you guys try to fight each act?

I usually aim for 3 if the map allows. It's the best way to get stronger. Depends on how a lot of factors though. If I feel my deck can't handle a particular elite (like my AoE sucks in Act 3 meaning Reptomancer might end me), then I get more conservative.

Also depends on character. With Silent, I aim for fewer elites in Act 1 but if I can get a Corpse Explosion, Wraith Form, or Malaise as my boss fight reward in then I go elite hunting in later acts.
With Watcher I just try to aim for as many elites as possible.

Depends on the deck and relics I have to that point.

https://www.twitch.tv/lifecoach1981

Maybe that works. Basically LifeCoach1981 played 50 runs with Watcher at max difficulty and won 47 of them.

Bad_Mojo posted...

You're a liar >_<

It HAS to be a meme. It doesn't matter how awesome my deck is, I will always lose. I think I even had a run where I didn't take any damage on the first floor at all, then I ran into a mob where I was doing like 1 damage every 5 turns because I kept having to Defend and Defend, and had a limited amount of Defend cards. but it would do damage and gain a ton of Block

The game is bull shit, but I have to keep playing.

Not a meme.

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/667013176

47-3 win rate on Watcher at A20 with Heart Kills. At the end he had a 20-game win streak (which is still active).
That is not an anomaly, that is real consistency. Watcher is so much beyond the other characters and it is not close.

Watch the choices that LifeCoach makes. There's definitely a lot of calculation and forethought. Like sometimes he spends 30 minutes on a card choice. But the point is that the power is there, you just need to figure out how to use it.

Nope

Bad_Mojo posted...

Yeah, but I still can't get it done, lol. Like you said, I don't really have any issues clearing Act 1 with it, and the easier clear of the 4. It's just that I run out of steam once they start filling up my decks with bs, and then of course it doesn't have a whole lot of multi-hitting attacks where I can damage everyone at the same time. Sometimes you get "stuck" in Wrath and take massive damage. Sometimes you're stuck in Calm and can't do any damage on a "Warming up" phrase of the mob's turn. It's like, every time I'm in Wrath, I get defense. When I'm in Calm, I'm getting the attack cards. Right when I go SSJ with Mantra, if I go that rout, I lose it by going into Wrath [I think, do you lose that buff by going into Wrath?]. It just never works out for me, I can't clear Act 3 with her.

And you can tell me all the great strats you know, I've read a lot of them. Hell, I'm sure we've talked about it on here before. I just can't get it done

Let's go through the issues you're running into and maybe we can help.

-"It's just that I run out of steam once they start filling up my decks with bs, "

Take fewer cards when offered and look for more card draw/scry/retain to help you see the cards you actually want.
When a card is offered to you, ask yourself "does this really make me better on average"? Because adding a card to your deck means one less chance of drawing the card you really need for a particular situation. The most important part of playing Watcher is deck control.

Card draw options:
-Relics like Bag of Prep, Gambling Chip, Ink Bottle, Gremlin Horn are amazing on Watcher
-Cards like Cut Through Fate, Wheel Kick, Insight/Study, Inner Peace, Rushdown, Sanctity can be amazing in the right circumstances for drawing more cards. Rushdown paired with Simmering Fury ensures you'll have NINE CARDS in hand when you go into wrath.
-Scry is your friend. Enough scry can trivialize curses, bad starting cards, and allow you to control when you want block or attacks in your hand. Look for Cut Through Fate (I LOVE THIS CARD), Third Eye, Foresight (great power, especially if you can double it with Omniscience).

-"and then of course it doesn't have a whole lot of multi-hitting attacks where I can damage everyone at the same time."

It's true that Watcher doesn't have a god-tier AOE cards like Immolate, Corpse Explosion, or Electrokinesis, which can hurt her a bit in Act 2 and against Reptomancer.
She does have some solid AOE options like Consecrate (literally the same card as Slice on Silent but AOE and able to deal double damage with Wrath), Conclude, even Bowling Bash in the right situation. An effective way to deal with multiple enemies is just to burst kill one as quickly as possible, which Watcher is great at. Really dangerous group first you can usually just straight-up focus fire on the rightmost slaver, Bear, or boss adds and end them in a single turn before they can hurt you.

I'll dig into stances parts of your post later today, but stance dancing is super strong and divinity stance (apart from Blasphemy) is a often overvalued. My favorite Watcher card is Meditate+ because it's like a Well-Laid Plans that gives you 2 energy. If I can find 2 of Medidate+'s and cycle them she is untouchable.

Bad_Mojo posted...

What?! I have a LOT of time put into this game and have beaten it a lot with the other characters, even on higher ranks, but never once have I beaten it with the Watcher. I can't do it, lol

Watcher is the strongest character by a pretty wide margin. When I say "strongest" I don't mean that she necessarily has the highest ceiling -- I've had runs where Silent has dealt tens of thousands of poison damage in a single turn or Ironclad with 999 strength/block -- but Watcher is the most CONSISTENT.

The hardest part of this game at Ascension 20 is Act 1. I have all achievements and A20 heart kills with all characters and I still die in Act 1 A LOT. If I can't kill fast enough I have lost so many runs to Gremlin Nob, Lagavulin's debuff, bad Slime boss splits...
The reason Act 1 is hard is because it tests your ability to frontload damage, and characters like Silent and Defect just aren't that good at that in most situations -- in fact the choices you need to make it through Act 1 with those characters (taking mediocre attack cards) actually make you worse in later acts.
Watcher on the other hand has an unparalleled ability to burst damage.

I rarely die in Act 1 with Watcher. Why is that? Because Wrath stance is insane. Consider what's in most situations the worst card in the game: Strike. What does strike do: it deals 6 damage for 1 energy. Awful. But a Strike with Watcher in Wrath stance deals 12 damage for 1 energy, which for any other character is quite efficient. Consider the Ironclad uncommon card Hemokinesis -- one of the better Act 1 cards for him. Hemokinesis deals 14 damage in exchange for 1 energy and 3 HP. Hemo is a card I will actively seek out with Ironclad, but for Watcher, a wrath-stance Strike has just about the same value, and Strike is a card I want to REMOVE.
When I play Watcher, I actually find myself removing Defends over Strikes in most cases because with Wrath stance basically any attack you play is at least "okay."

Watcher is so good at attacking that the hardest Act 1 boss, Slime Boss, can often be burst killed before he's able to split at all. And because Watcher is so good at burst damage, she can path aggressively through Act 1 for more upgrades, relics, and gold, which then allows her to snowball through the remaining acts.

A lot of people fear the double damage you receive when in Wrath. It's almost a non-issue if you build your deck correctly. Wallop, Talk to the Hand, Meditate, Calm Mind, Halt... there are cards that mitigate that risk a massive amount. And the best mitigation? Simply winning the fight. The amount of time I do the math and realize "oh my god I actually have lethal here" with Watcher is insane. We're talking burst damaging an Act 2 elite for 100+ damage with a mediocre hand. She is that good.

Garioshi posted...

Usually Act 2/3, dying to something I just can't defend against

I'd try to prioritize the following:

1. Sources of Weak. Neutralize+, Crippling Cloud (it's AOE, which helps the most for Act 2!), Leg Sweep, and Malaise are all strong. They're even better if you can get a Paper Crane relic.
2. Card manipulation so you can find the block you need on the turn you need it. Great cards for this include Blur (carryover block across turns), Well-laid Plans (retain cards), Adrenaline (so you can draw more block cards with extra energy), Calculated Gamble (for if your hand is full of attacks when you need skills instead), and Backflip (but don't take this in Act 1 unless you have to). For relics, seek out Gambling Chip, Calipers, and Snecko Eye.
3. Intangible. Wraith Form is perhaps the strongest card in the game. Even better if you have Orange Pellets or Clockwork Souvenir to block the dexterity debuff. If you can trigger the "Council of Ghosts" event in Act 2, take it in most circumstances for Silent. It's especially good if you have a Toxic Egg and you're below Ascension 15 (after that you get few Apparitions). If you can somehow trigger Nightmare together Wraith Form+, you'll win basically every single fight in the game. For relics, try to find Incense Burner make sure you have it on the right number (usually 4, but not always) when you finish a fight.

Getting Dex is also helpful. I'll stack Footworks if I can. I'll also start prioritizing low-cost attacks if I find a Kunai. And I take a gazillion Piercing Wails -- they're so strong in Act 2 and against several Act 3 bosses/elites.

Watch this Jorbs Silent overexplain run where he breaks down the cards:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=skOUhJyWvgI

Joe8 posted...

I can never get Exhaust decks to work (or any Ironclad deck really). Like 90% of my wins come from Silent Poison/Discard & Draw decks

With Exhaust decks the main thing you're generally looking for is to generate card draw so you can kill as quickly as possible with the help of 0-cost cards and auto-block from Feel No Pain. I'm usually looking for draw cards like Offering, Shrug It Off, War Cry, Battle Trance. Shockwave is super powerful in an exhaust deck. Fiend Fire is often an "I win" button in a lot of hallway fights.

If you go for strength scaling, Reaper can basically break the game. You stall long enough for you strength to reach high enough levels, use the Reaper, and then heal back to full health every fight.

Garioshi posted...

My ascension levels are 11/3/7/4. Playing Silent feels like bashing my head against a brick wall.

How are your runs usually ending with her? She's definitely a bit underpowered compared to the others, especially after the Well-laid Plans energy nerf. But she has incredible cards like Wraith Form, Crippling Cloud, Catalyst, Burst.
Dash in Act 1 is super strong, I almost always pick it.
Act 2 with her I'm usually hoping to find a Noxious Fumes, Piercing Wail, Corpse Explosion, Footwork.
Act 3 I'm looking for ways to clone Wraith Form or Catalysts.

Where do you run into a wall with her?

Stalolin posted...

Damn, thanks for all the tips @IronTusk !

For sure! Tag me if you've hit a wall anywhere and I'll try to help. This game is sooooooo deep with so many things to learn. I remember it took me about 5 hours to win my first run on the lowest difficulty and it was super hard. But now that I'm doing Ascension 20 Heart runs I look back at the sheer amount of strategies and card synergies I've picked up along the way and it's an amazing feeling. Now playing on the default difficulty is so easy just from the additional knowledge and experience.

One good general tip: don't avoid fighting elites unless you're certain you'll die. They're the best way to get stronger. They give a relic, lots of gold, and have a higher chance for a rare/uncommon card roll.

Stalolin posted...

Thanks for the tip!

I think I played about 6 hours today. All as the first character. I made it to the final boss of act 3 once but I died. It was close.

Good job getting to the Act 3 boss (know that there are 3 different bosses that change depending on your playthrough seed). Try watching some of Jorbs's Slay the Spire videos. He's a top-3 player in the world and he teaches you about contextual and situational values for each card. Don't bother going for "archetypes." What you actually want is to be able to play the right card in the right situation, and this game will punish a lot of "one-trick pony" decks as you get higher in ascension.

This isn't 100% true in all situations, but generally your objectives are different in each act.

-Act 1: frontload damage -- the elites/bosses test your ability to access quick burst damage, which is why Watcher is so overpowered to start. Try to find good damage cards. For Ironclad -- Bludgeon, Immolate, Whirlwind, Carnage, Hemokinesis... For Silent, Glass Knife etc. Elites like Gremlin Nob will punish you for infesting too much into skills/block too early, so you need ways to be beat him with relentless burst damage.
-Act 2: tests your AOE and ability to block -- 2/3 elites and 2/3 bosses this act have minions that can wreck you if you don't manage them. Also there are some huge block turns required like when Bronze Automaton hyperbeams you for like 60 damage. So for Ironclad, cards like Immolate and Whirlwind+ become really helpful. Silent wants Corpse Explosion, Crippling Cloud, and Dagger Spray. Defect wants Electrokinesis. Act 2 has some of the strongest "?" events like Council of Ghosts, the one that lets you upgrade all strikes/defends, the Gladiator Arena, and 3 books.
-Act 3: scaling and card draw. At this point the game tests your ability to get strong fast with powers and other means to multiply your damage become super important. You'll probably have a good amount of cards in your deck so your ability to find the cards you need when you need them becomes super important. So removing bad cards like Strike is really valuable because it means your can access your good cards earlier. Removing bad cards isn't exactly sexy but it's one of the most impactful things you can do. There are a million ways to scale, but generally speaking -- Ironclad wants either strength, block, or exhaust synergies. Silent wants poison (infinite shiv scaling is fun but gets punished often at higher ascensions) and intangibility through Wraith Form. Defect wants orb focus/slots/loops and access to easy manipulation of ice. Watcher often wants Talk to the Hand, Omniscience, Wallop, and ways to control stance dance on command (also meta-scaling from Wish and Lesson Learned can become game-breaking, and there's always the option of Divine Stance, but I don't consider it necessary in most cases).

Also Snecko Eye is in most situations the strongest relic in the game, particularly for Ironclad. Don't be scared off by the RNG. Drawing 2 more cards per turn is ridiculous. It's especially ridiculous if your deck has a lot high-energy cards that you suddenly can often play cheaply. Another relic that scares off new players is Coffee Dripper (removes your ability to rest at campsites): it's actually one of the best energy relics since ideally you're never resting at campsites and you're upgrading/toking/exercising instead.

General character tips:
-Ironclad: exhausting cards is amazing. Corruption, Feel No Pain, Dark Embrace together with lots of good Skill cards is generally an "I win" button. If you get Dead Branch (creates a new card every time one is exhausted) on top of it, cherish that run forever. You can also scale strength with combos like Limit Break and Demon Form. Scaling block with Entrench, Body Slam etc is a bit gimmicky but it can get ridiculous with the right situation. Scaling HP with Reaper and Feed also can allow you to "tank damage with your face" so to speak.
-Silent: Sadly she's the weakest character at A20 because her options get so limited but I think she can be awesome. Stacking poison correctly with Catalysts, Burst, Nightmare can generate some obscene damage numbers (20,000 poison damage in single turn for instance). Her discard gimmick sadly isn't very strong. Shivs are super fun but I don't bother generally unless I have Kunai/Shuriken because one of the Act 3 bosses and the true final boss punish low-cost card spam really heavily. Wraith Form (don't be afraid of the debuff) and Well-Laid Plans are some of the strongest cards in the game. Stacking dexterity with Footwork is also super viable.
-Defect: Lightning is good to start but generally Frost orbs paired paired with an easily-manipulated Dark Orb is the best block/damage combo. You can do some crazy things with cards like Meteor Strike if you have Snecko Eye. They have some of the strongest powers in the game like Echo Form and Biased Cognition (don't fear the debuff). Be careful because one of the Act 3 bosses punishes powers spam by getting stronger every time you play one, but with the right powers you can outscale it anyway.
-Watcher: highest risk/reward character but also statistically the strongest character in the game. All about going into Wrath stance to do double damage and then flipping back to Calm Stance at the right moment. Offense is the best defense with her -- you don't need to block if the enemy's dead. I'm often looking for cards like Wallop and Talk to the Hand that turn her attacks into block. Retain cards like Sands of Time and Protect help her reach the damage or block she needs when she needs it. Scry is type of card draw manipulation that can save you over and over again, Cut Through Fate is great for this. Blasphemy is insanely strong (deal triple damage and gain 2 energy but die next turn) but Divinity Stance is overrated otherwise imho. My win rate with her is like 3 times higher than the other characters because she can achieve so much damage so easily. Basically with her you need to be able to draw the right cards at the right time, because if you're caught in Wrath stance when the enemy's about to draw a big attack you will die.

God I love this game. Watch Jorbs.

It's one of my favorite games of all time. I have over 300 hours on it. All achievements, A20 true endings for all characters.

Absolute masterpiece.

Also protip: Watcher is the strongest character by a lot.