Lurker > Doctor Foxx

SusanGreenEyes posted...

None of what we're doing in terms of eating animals is illegal.
Everyone has the right to obey their own moral code on this issue.

Legality should not be what you base morality on, history is full of atrocities that follow this reasoning.

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LinkPizza posted...

Im just saying, we could do that. But we dont...

People could also stop eating meat and they don't

It would save a lot more animals than feeding wildlife

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LinkPizza posted...

We could make food for them and leave it out. Technically.

That's on us and absolutely not on them. Some people do that by feeding their pets or other animals vegan food

But the animals can't actively choose to do it, therefore they are obligated

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LinkPizza posted...

Technically, other animals dont have to, either. But they do. The only thing thats really barbaric is that we mass produce them. Though, if we didnt, wed have to go back to hunting them. And wed lose lots of meat due to possible overhunting and due to some animals just not cut out for the wild... Or not cut out enough, I guess. Eh...

Do these animals have currency and grocery stores and readily available alternative options? Can carnivores stop eating meat? No, they can't just give it up. That is disingenuous. We have other options and we have to do better for them. We have a moral obligation to act because we have moral agency

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Mead posted...

Animals hunt and eat other animals

they dont farm millions of animals in warehouses, give them antibiotics and growth hormones, kill them just as theyre maturing, and finally incinerating the carcass after harvesting the meat, all while destroying the surrounding environment, killing off bees and other useful insects with pesticides, and ruining freshwater and ocean environments with fertilizer and waste runoff

No but Mead

Animals do something, therefore humans should do it. Let's all start shitting on the grass and ignore modern medicine

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LinkPizza posted...

If I stop buying it, how will I eat it?

Wrong question to be asking

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Bulbasaur posted...

the animal is already dead if you eat it or not.

might as well eat it and not let it go to waste.

The problem lies in first keeping and killing the animals. "It's already there I'll buy it/eat it anyway" is basic supply and demand. Animals are bred and killed because people pay for it. Straight up. Stop paying for it.

Eat what's there if you must, but stop forcibly breeding countless more animals to die. You'll find there will stop being meat that people "have to eat"

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LinkPizza posted...

Sure. We can do better. But that doesnt mean we cant eat meat. Well just do better in other stuff...

I don't believe in saying "welp I've done enough I'm just not going to try and do better in this world"

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LinkPizza posted...

Personally, I dont see anything wrong with eating meat. Just like so many others. Animals are animals. Humans are animals. Animals eat other animals. Some eat human. Many humans eat certain animals.

Non-human animals do many things we find unethical; they steal, rape, eat their children and engage in other activities that do not and should not provide a foundation for our behavior.

We know better, we must do better.

LinkPizza posted...

Pushing your views onto others is wrong, though. Harassing them because of what they like to eat is wrong. Just let people be themselves. And let them make their own choices instead of trying to guilt them into it because you have no other way...

What would you call it when people join into a topic about veganism to promote killing and eating animals? Not pushing a viewpoint?

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LinkPizza posted...

People have been hinting animals for a very long time. Death is part of life. And animals have always eaten other animals. And we are animals ourselves. I dont see anything wrong with it. Not to mention, most people who vegans yell at arent killing animals directly. Indirectly, sure. But people do all kinds of things indirectly...

And annoying most people isnt going to make them changes. Some people may end up not being vegan out of spite.

And maybe you like temporary discomfort. We would just like people to leave us alone when were eating so we can enjoy our meal. I dont want a lecture while Im eating. Especially when I already know Im not going vegan... Like ever...

Words may not break my bones like sticks and stone, but theyll sure as fuck annoy me... And Id honestly rather eat in peace...

Dismissing creatures as just animals is what makes people feel ok with killing them. Are we no different than animals? What makes killing them ok and not us? Is it because they are different? Less intelligent? I don't feel it's acceptable to kill for those reasons.

We have the capacity to know better and this gives us the obligation to do better. And we have, in many ways. For some people this barbaric practice is in the past, and society is progressing this way.

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LinkPizza posted...

Harassing people because they eat something you dont want to eat and constantly harassing them about it is harassment. So, yes...

We were just talking about how some vegans like to harass people about this earlier...

But truly consider in your heart what is worse

Annoying someone with words, or killing a being that wants to live? I would pick the possibility of annoying a person over the act of killing. And if it may annoy people that support killing to in order to save some lives, I see the benefit far outweighs temporary discomfort.

Whatever happened to sticks and stones

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SusanGreenEyes posted...

If you're going vegan then you're not going to want any more Impossible Burgers from Burger King.
They've been cooked on the same grill as their burgers and chicken sandwiches.

https://www.today.com/food/new-burger-king-impossible-whopper-isn-t-vegetarian-t160203

Yes and...? Same with any vegan food at a non vegan place. That is something to be aware of and plan for accordingly.

The real kicker is they add mayo by default. Def not vegan.

SusanGreenEyes posted...

Here's the thing though.
Non vegans are well aware where our food comes from and we're perfectly fine with it.
We don't require reminders.

You think that. You aren't truly aware or a reminder of the cost of your choices would be meaningless. You would be at peace with it and your choices whenever you're reminded of the reality. You wouldn't feel harassed. Instead any reminder puts people on the defensive. They know it's wrong but don't want to do anything about it.

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/bmpaxm/are-meat-eaters-more-likely-to-tolerate-social-inequality

Most people are fine with meat. Maybe those drawn to veganism are particularly opposed to injustice and oppression. Don't know. It's worth considering why people eat meat and what pushes someone to make that change.

final_lap posted...

The state of things are so bad that I think people tune it out. Like our brains are just not conditioned to accept that something so horrible can be going on, unimpeded, on such a wide scale. If we see even a piece of it, we assume that it must be an isolated incident, (which is a common excuse doled out in defense of eating meat) and that the normal situation is much more idyllic. To me though that's like believing in Santa Claus.

We are kept far away from it for good reason. Things like ag gag laws and the like, and brilliant marketing.

Ag gag laws are so awful. Ugh.

Haven't met a meat eater that could make it through Dominion or Lucent despite that very much being the reality for billions of animals each and every year.

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LinkPizza posted...

But if youre mad about enslaving, then no one should have pets, either. Pets are property. And if the enslaving animals part is wrong, then why are vegans ok with pets?

I have conflicting feelings about keeping pets after working in animal rescue, plus the veganism. Pet ownership isn't on nearly the same scale as animal agriculture (though it does rely on it). It's also not killing animals in their juvenile stages over and over in an endless cycle of suffering.

We are responsible for the animals we have domesticated. I'm completely opposed to the exotic animal trade and people keeping wild animals.

Abolitionist veganism is opposed to any of it.

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Revelation34 posted...

Definition of enslavement in English:

enslavement
noun
mass noun

The action of making someone a slave; subjugation.
the enslavement of millions of Africans

Definition of someone in English:

someone
pronoun

1An unknown or unspecified person; some person.
there's someone at the door
someone from the audience shouted out

Definition of person in English:

person
nounpeople, persons

1A human being regarded as an individual.
the porter was the last person to see her prior to her disappearance
she is a person of astonishing energy

https://psmag.com/environment/is-a-chimpanzee-a-person

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Revelation34 posted...

You also can't enslave an animal by definition.

Slaves are the legal property of their owners; animals are legal property. Slaves are subject to the absolute authority of their owners; so are animals. Slave owners command obedience; obedience is a concept readily applied by owners to their animals. Slaves are kept in bondage; many animals are held in captivity, caged, and chained against their will.

Consider the following features of livestock animals' lives:
(1) Livestock animals are regarded by their owners as property to be bought and sold.
(2) Livestock animals are never free to leave their owners' farms for the entire duration of their lives.
(3) The range of choices open to livestock animals is much narrower than it could be, and is restricted at their owners' discretion.
(4) Livestock animals are used in ways that they do not endorse and for purposes that they do not endorse.
(5) The owners of livestock animals harm them and exhibit very little (if any) noninstrumental concern for their welfare.

If any class of subjugated human beings were to meet all five of these conditions, we would not hesitate to call those people slaves. Nonhuman animals are lacking in legal rights and this is changing.

https://www.economist.com/international/2018/12/22/gradually-nervously-courts-are-granting-rights-to-animals

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/does-animals-have-legal-r_b_9548908

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/07/05/animals-accorded-rights-humans-indian-national-park/

These are feeling beings deserving of moral consideration. You can in fact enslave nonhuman animals.

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Krazy_Kirby posted...

shit talent trees are not an improvement

improved flight paths, fast travel accessibility, and having lfm were fucking huge improvements that save so much time

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Krazy_Kirby posted...

sentience applies to humans, not farm animals

That's simply not true. This area was not studied as extensively many decades ago, but the research exists now. Sentience is not limited to humans, and it is certainly not excluded from nonhuman animals because of how some categorize them as meat.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4494284/

https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/animal-emotions/201306/universal-declaration-animal-sentience-no-pretending

https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/animal-emotions/201711/cows-science-shows-theyre-bright-and-emotional-individuals

http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20170110-despite-what-you-might-think-chickens-are-not-stupid

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/consciousness-animal/

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2011/12/dead-cow-walking-the-case-against-born-again-carnivorism/250506/

It is convenient to think of these creatures as not capable of being sentient. But that doesn't make it accurate

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Kyuubi4269 posted...

No, it isn't. We all know what happens to farm animals and most people accept it as normal, what is upsetting is being harassed for eating dinner.

Seriously, keep this shit up and I will start flagging you for flaming.

Your opinion is that harassing strangers to virtue signal (since the hostility makes vegans look awful) is more important than being a normal, considerate human being. You can disagree.

The act of enslaving and killing sentient beings is far worse than any perceived attitude about an issue

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Sarcasthma posted...

How many times has that happened to you in real life?

Or even in this topic honestly

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papercup posted...

I mean, I don't play WoW, but just from what people have told me that do, they don't like the new WoW. It doesn't really have anything to do with 'rewarding Blizz for not creating something new" it's that people miss the old game.

They miss the feeling WoW used to give them. It will never come back. You can't capture that. Certainly not by getting rid of a decade of quality of life improvements

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TheWitchMorgana posted...

nsync is definitely the better band, but they are literally never going to reunite

Strong disagree

But ultimately I just care about JT and he beats those boy bands

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http://nymag.com/intelligencer/2019/08/jeffrey-epsteins-bodyguard-igor-zinoviev-on-his-old-boss.html

This read... Do it. That reporter and the driver are going to disappear

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Master_Bass posted...

Is Hardee's doing this too? We have those but not Carl Jr's in the area.

I dunno you could call and ask your local restaurant

Caelthus posted...

You literally could not pay me to eat one of those.

More for the rest of us

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LinkPizza posted...

I think I agree with Kirby. When being Vegetarian or Vegan wasnt a big thing, nobody really cares about people not wanting a lot of meat. But when it became a big thing and people were trying to get others to stop eating meat, people got more defensive of their food. At least, thats how it seems.

People are being made more aware about the reality of the source of their food and it is upsetting for a lot of people

That's not on any vegetarian. People hold on to bad feelings that come from knowing what they support, not because of any baseless comment from a stranger.

IMO speaking up and advocating for saving lives and the planet comes before ignoring the issue to spare feelings and self examination. You can disagree

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Not many hours left for free food

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Krazy_Kirby posted...

what victims?

chickens?
cows?
pigs?

big whoop

They're feeling beings as well

But really it's damaging to the people that have to work in the industry (which exploits trafficked humans like mad)

https://metro.co.uk/2017/12/31/how-killing-animals-everyday-leaves-slaughterhouse-workers-traumatised-7175087/

Society suffers when you are fine with violence.

Then there's the environment, health, all sorts of things

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/may/07/true-cost-of-eating-meat-environment-health-animal-welfare

LinkPizza posted...

I don't think there's a problem with sharing it. Maybe it's oversharing. Like Revelation said, all it takes is someone saying, "I'm not vegan." and then you could say, "Oh. Sorry." or "Ok."

That's cool and that's all I'll do if nonvegan people discuss it with me in person (they sometimes bring it up)

But this is also a clearly labelled vegan thread that people are coming into, like I think you'd expect talk about veganism in a topic about veganism. It is on topic here.

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Kyuubi4269 posted...

It's so easy there's support offered?

It's not easy to go so hard against ingrained cultural norms, and it can be downright alienating to remove yourself from some things. Support does help. There's nothing hard about being vegan. It's dealing with hostility.

Kyuubi4269 posted...

A person of such moral concerns will naturally fall in to veganism, and those who aren't so afflicted have no need of veganism. Your voice is not needed, it's primarily belligerent.

Like that

Choosing nonviolence and advocacy for victims is not belligerant

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Aculo posted...

exactly. but it can never be that way with these people, ok?

they want you to know, they need you to know. if you don't know, their lifestyle choice isn't validated, and they need that validation. you know why? because everything else in their life is empty, ok?

I want people to know there are more vegans out there so they can understand that living as a vegan is easy and there's support

Something like that would have made it much easier for me to consider and apply changes that reflected my morals. If you don't understand why a vegan would be motivated to advocate for that lifestyle and get others to consider it...

If your life goes outside the norm it's helpful to know others are out there. This applies to anything.

Mead posted...

Havent tried a beyond burger but I guess I know what Im having for lunch, thanks foxx!

No problem, I hope you enjoy it

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Aculo posted...

way to not answer the question, whatsoever, ok?

i even called it a lifestyle in the text you quoted. you didn't answer the question, ok?

here, let me be more clear. why must you people insist on being so obnoxious about you lifestyle?

You have a demonstrated problem with a lot of different lifestyles so it doesn't really matter why anyone decides to do or not do those things

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Say, if you were to do that "common and juvenile prank" on a co-worker, would you bet on keeping your job? Would you argue that your swift termination was unjust?

Just curious

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If you've ever wanted to try one, hard to find a better way than free

https://www.thrillist.com/news/nation/carls-jr-free-food-beyond-meat-famous-star-burgers-deal

Personally I know they're tasty and if I was near any Carl's I'd be all over this. But I'm not. Maybe you can enjoy!

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Free Beyond Meat burgers at Carl's Jr. Today!

https://www.thrillist.com/news/nation/carls-jr-free-food-beyond-meat-famous-star-burgers-deal

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So sorry, Fatal. Good thoughts to you and your family

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Family separation has a big impact on people, but so does living in a home supported with an unhealthy relationship.

Some people just can't go through with separating

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final_lap posted...

Same here.

With that in mind I will gladly talk about veganism to anyone that wants to learn more about it, and I'm happy to share my food

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Aculo posted...

why are vegans never satisfied just enjoying their lifestyle? why do they insist on rubbing their veganism in everyone's faces?

I'm happy with my decision. I honestly wish I knew more open vegans sooner so I would have considered the change sooner.

Key thing is veganism is a philosophy and way of living, and while that does impact your diet, if you're perceiving it strictly as a diet it is not going to make sense

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ChaosAzeroth posted...

Trying to look up cheapest vegan ice cream prices and I saw this:

Ringing in just around $6 at most health and grocery stores, its an affordable and clean vegan alternative to those looking to get their ice cream fix!

$6 for a pint? And affordable in the same sentence? I don't think we pay that for a gallon...

I mean you can't find things as cheap as the cheapest dairy ice creams out there because dairy (and the sweetener) is so heavily subsidized by the government. It also lacks the economy of scale at this time.

But you can definitely find less expensive stuff than that. You don't need a health food brand. There's vegan Haagen-Dazs sitting there hanging out at my local 711 for less than that.

One thing I've noticed is store brand vegan ice creams popping up, they're usually a bit cheaper

You can also do what I've done and make your own vegan ice creams

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Revelation34 posted...

I said as good. I never said it couldn't be good either.

Having tried significant quantities of both, it is as good

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The fellow I went out with tonight said he hadn't had pizza in 4 years (!!!) because he doesn't like Daiya shreds (I agree they are kinda gross). He gave up on the commercial vegan cheese at most places.

We shared a couple pizzas, and split cheesecake and gelato. I'm still comfortably full

That pizza blew his mind/ He has only been to one other vegan place in town so I might have to show him the choice spots

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Revelation34 posted...

I doubt vegan ice cream tastes as good as the real stuff.

It is as good, I ate it before I went vegan because of lactose intolerance. My dairy-eating friends also like it a lot

Some of the B&J flavors in the vegan line are better. PB&Cookie is my fave

The cookie shop across the street serves vegan soft serve (and vegan cookies)

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SunWuKung420 posted...

Just a very common and juvenile prank.

Sounds an awful lot like "It's just locker room talk" gets used to pass off incredibly inappropriate behavior

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SunWuKung420 posted...

Getting pantsed or having someone say kissing you is gross isn't sexual misconduct.

This is some dude whose career went nowhere trying to get noticed again.

Ummmm

I'm sorry but what

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InfestedAdam posted...

Kudos on maintaining such a diet. I can see myself going vegetarian for health reasons but going vegan would be a very hard sell for me.

When I think about why I do it it's not hard at all

It was an adjustment for sure

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ChaosAzeroth posted...

That being said I'm not sure I could ever be vegan. We're finally getting more vegetarian options around where I live, and them not costing an arm and a leg. (Still kinda pricey though.) I have yet to see any sort of cheese stuff, but we do have milk substitutes. Also ice cream. I shouldn't be eating either tbh, I'm lactose intolerant. lol

I said that vehemently before switching and I was wrong

There's vegan cheese everywhere now as well as vegan ice cream galore. Ben and Jerry's been on that for ages

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Jen0125 posted...

She didn't "mess with his crotchal region." She pulled his pants down in public and showed his genitals to other people.

Which is very much not ok like damn

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LinkPizza posted...

Does tofu cheese have its own taste. I thought tofu normally got its flavor from the sauces it was in. So, I figured its cheese would be the same...

Cheese gets its flavor from bacterial cultures and fermentation.

Whether that's milk from plants or animals, meh, it's the cultures that do it

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SunWuKung420 posted...

Do you prefer tofu or nut cheese?

Like... Do I prefer to have tofu or nut based cheeses?

or are you asking about preference for some tofu cheese vs nut cheese

Because if it's the former, tofu all the way

If it's the latter I generally have preferred cashew cheese vs soy cheese

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ninja_lootz posted...

Plants don't have the mammary glands necessary to produce milk. Only mammals do.

Plant milk-substitute would be a more correct way to say it.

That's not wholly accurate. Pigeons and penguins feed their young crop milk. Some spiders feed their young milk. Mammals do it but it's not just mammals. Guarantee there's many more animals that do similar that we haven't observed quite yet.

Milk has been applied to plant based things for longer than I've been alive. Coconut milk or dandelion milk, anyone?

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Zareth posted...

Would you eat beef if it was artificially grown in a vat?

Not me personally for several reasons

I think lab grown meat might be good for people that feel they need animal flesh in their diets

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