Lurker > Jakyl25

Lopen I think youre approaching the issue differently than I and those that agree with me are. Correct me if Im wrong, but it comes across to me like your endgame with this whole debate is whats best for transgender acceptance? and so your approach (as usual) centers around pragmatism

I dont believe in pragmatism or incrementalism when it comes to equal rights
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Corrik7 posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

You know better than the IOC regarding how to regulate sports?

Is the IOC some magical god?

Majority of Olympic athletes themselves disagree with it.

Source?
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Lopen posted...

I dunno I think what you're suggesting is kinda weird. Like, "they may dominate but so what there aren't very many right now" it seems really short sighted. Let's think about the ramifications that has on trans acceptance in general. It's a really easy, and by your own admission, not entirely inaccurate, narrative to spin that "this woman player is only good because they're trans"

Do you think that's good publicity?

I would rather people think that than not allowing them to compete under their gender identity

And I think you misunderstood me. Im not saying oh they could dominate but they dont right now so its not an issue. The nature of transitioning basically ensures that it will NEVER be an issue. I humored the question into an answer about a hypothetical universe just for completionism
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You know better than the IOC regarding how to regulate sports?
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But you still think its unsafe or unfair even with the restrictions!
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Also I like how the only reason Putin doesnt dominate womens sports is because he thinks trans people are gross
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MoogleKupo141 posted...

this sounds like a great plot for a new Cool Runnings movie

oh no how will the Jamaican ladies bobsled team compete against the Russian trans uberwomen

Make it about surfing and call it Surf and TERFs
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Corrik7 posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

Dude I just posted the IOC guidelines

I know what the guidelines are.

So you think a team of trans women, following the IOC doping guidelines and the IOC testosterone guidelines would dominate many sports, basically purely on bone structure and height
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Yes and the reason for the divisions is representation
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Dude I just posted the IOC guidelines
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Corrik, what are your thoughts on women in NASCAR?
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Honestly the real tragedy is that the Home Run Derby gets big ratings

Its the silliest popular thing in sports
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Lopen, how did I do?
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Corrik7 posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

(And also because newborns dont have gender identity yet)

So why should gender be on any birth certificate and not just the sex?

So, again, why are we changing sex on birth certificates after the fact?

Precisely because gender isnt on a birth certificate but we need some legal way to change gender and thats the best we have come up with

We should come up with something better, I agree!
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Corrik7 posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

Lopen posted...

Corrik7 posted...

The reason the women's divisions began is because it was so women wouldn't get hurt against men and so they could compete and actually play.

(This is to Jakyl) If it's actually just about representing men and women that's fine. What is your counterpoint to that, though?

One could argue that preserving a competitive environment is also paramount. Do you think that trans women being the new meta for women's division dominance is okay? What about the biological females that also want to compete?

I feel thats a moot point, since it happens so rarely that a trans athlete dominates amongst the thousands of them participating in sports that you cannot logically say that its due to their biology

In some hypothetical universe where trans women dominated biological females, there would probably be enough trans women to start a different league

How many transgender athletes are failing to dominate in women's sports?

Because you talk like you know this happens rarely. I want numbers.

To be honest no one knows, because trans athletes being out of the closet is relatively new.

But the few that are out really dont dominate. Fallon Fox was not a championship level fighter. Renee Richards never won a tennis major. Hannah Mounceys team doesnt win World Handball Championships. Theres a list of more on Wikipedia I can sift through

Heres the IOC guidelines for the Olympics

The new guidelines require only that trans woman athletes declare their gender and not change that assertion for four years, and demonstrate a testosterone level of less than 10 nanomoles/liter for at least one year prior to competition and throughout the period of eligibility. Athletes who transitioned from female to male were allowed to compete without restriction. These guidelines were in effect for the 2016 Rio Olympics, although no openly transgender athletes competed.[9]

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(And also because newborns dont have gender identity yet)
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Corrik7 posted...

It is funny you made this huge argument about gender/sex divisions, yet I don't think I see you crusading that states shouldn't be allowing transgender people to change their birth certificates' sex because they are changing their gender not sex.

Why aren't you arguing this?

Because sex on a birth certificate is used to signify both sex and gender because birth certificates were created back in the old days when people used sex and gender indiscriminately, as you have referenced earlier.

It IS a problem that you have to legally change your gender by altering the sex on your birth certificate. Its just not high up on the priority list
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Lopen posted...

Corrik7 posted...

The reason the women's divisions began is because it was so women wouldn't get hurt against men and so they could compete and actually play.

(This is to Jakyl) If it's actually just about representing men and women that's fine. What is your counterpoint to that, though?

One could argue that preserving a competitive environment is also paramount. Do you think that trans women being the new meta for women's division dominance is okay? What about the biological females that also want to compete?

I feel thats a moot point, since it happens so rarely that a trans athlete dominates amongst the thousands of them participating in sports that you cannot logically say that its due to their biology

In some hypothetical universe where trans women dominated biological females, there would probably be enough trans women to start a different league
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Jakyl25 posted...

Trans women are legally women dude

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender_rights_in_the_United_States

Consult the map under Identity Documents for further reference about this, if anyones interested
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Trans women are legally women dude
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They were so dumbfounded by the Mixed Tag Elimination match they couldnt move for hours
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I will treat people as they wish to be treated

if a person said hey do you legally think I am a woman, I would say no

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Lopen posted...

I would like to read relevant counterpoints please

Okay, at its core, what is the purpose of sports? Entertainment for the masses. Personal accomplishment. Team building and cameraderie.

The reason different leagues/divisions exist is because of representation. Pure and simple. Even Corrik just admitted that the only reason Womens sports exist is so theyd get to play, despite being on average biologically inferior in speed, strength, and size.

Trans women are women. Trans men are men. Let them be represented in the leagues they belong in. No one is harmed by it, but trans people are absolutely harmed by being forced to compete in the wrong league for their gender or by being excluded at all.
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Corrik posted...

There is no way you sat here and said Everytime Corrik says Women he is referring to gender here.

If you were being honest about you respecting how trans people want the language of sex and gender to be used, you would be using that way.

But youre clearly not honest about that, because when I told you what the distinction is, you didnt care to correct your language
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Corrik posted...

My definition for women's sports is that it is to separate the men and women's sports because the average man is biologically predisposed to be stronger, faster, and bigger than women. Which gives them competitive edge on average.

So why even give the inferior sex any division at all?
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Its legitimately freaking dangerous to have anyone box anyone. I dont even think there are women heavyweight boxers, but I could be wrong.
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Lopen posted...

You say there isn't but haven't made good points against Corrik's post beyond shrieking bigot

Because I cant get even past him calling trans women not actual women to even get to an honest discussion. Because I dont think hes being honest or talking to me in good faith. I believe that he is intentionally winding me up because hes not that ignorant.

Would YOU like to know those points
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Lopen posted...

P sure Corrik was arguing there is a good reason to make that change before you charged at the red bigotry cape.

But there isnt
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Corrik7 posted...

Lopen posted...

So is Jakyl saying he'd agree with Corrik if divisions were male and female

I don't know. They literally are jumping through hurdles. They have to know women's sports is intended for "females" and they weren't trying to dictate it was assigned by "gender" and not "sex" with the wording.

Your own definition of womens sports earlier was basically that it was a pity division for women who cant compete with men right?
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Lopen posted...

So is Jakyl saying he'd agree with Corrik if divisions were male and female

If there was a good reason to make them male/female instead of men/women, anti-trans people would have already made that change
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Lopen posted...

Bigotry aside addressing Corrik's actual argument instead of calling for a bigotry witch hunt is probably more likely to produce useful discourse

I cant. Im too mad.
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Corrik7 posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

Corrik7 posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

For the record, when you call a trans woman a man, or you call a trans man a woman, and you know better, you are being a bigot

Huh? I call a transgender person whatever they wish to be called. And have no problem with transgender people in any shape, way, or form. Do I think if they have to sign a legal form regarding their sex they should be signing it as what they wish to be called and be and not what they were born as? Absolutely not.

Did you completely miss that entire post up there where you implied trans women werent actual women? Thats bigotry

They are not actually women. That isn't bigotry. It is fact. You cannot change the sex you were born as.

They wish to be accepted as a woman. Gender is a social construct. They wish to be socially acceptable as women. And, that is fine, and any decent person should have no problem with doing so when it is not a detriment to others.

This is where this topic has always been.

Banananor just stated this with asking you why have a women's division if it isn't just for women. You are saying transgender people can become women making the division still apt.

But, you cannot change your biological sex. You are what you were born as. Just like I cannot become Black if I was born White. Or etc.

You are born what you are born.

You are talking about a social distinction in gender.

Okay, maybe you really dont understand that man/woman refers to gender and male/female refers to biological sex
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HeroDelTiempo17 posted...

I mean a real actual fact is that biological sex is distinct from gender identity

I have to believe he knows this and is deliberately being obtuse

Weve been through this before Im pretty sure
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Corrik7 posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

For the record, when you call a trans woman a man, or you call a trans man a woman, and you know better, you are being a bigot

Huh? I call a transgender person whatever they wish to be called. And have no problem with transgender people in any shape, way, or form. Do I think if they have to sign a legal form regarding their sex they should be signing it as what they wish to be called and be and not what they were born as? Absolutely not.

Did you completely miss that entire post up there where you implied trans women werent actual women? Thats bigotry
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For the record, when you call a trans woman a man, or you call a trans man a woman, and you know better, you are being a bigot
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Corrik7 posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

So basically you have no idea what being trans is

I think you are ignoring facts to get where you want.

But, hey, opinions can differ and what not. No big deal.

I dont think you understand what facts are
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So basically you have no idea what being trans is
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Corrik7 posted...

MoogleKupo141 posted...

Yes, it doesn't work in either direction. As I mentioned in the above post.

that article makes it sound like it totally works if you let transmen play with cisnmen. Making a transman compete against women was the problem.

What people fail to explain in their arguments of NOT ALL TRANS WIN! Is that mediocre and below average athletes in the male division are winning or coming close to winning or doing far better in women's sports and are unfairly pushing out actual women.

biological females would also be below average in the male division so why is that relevant

are you suggesting that mediocre male athletes are pretending to have gender dismorphia so they win high school track events

also gross phrasing with actual women there

So you are saying below average men should be able to take accolades from women?

A mediocre man should be able to be a Woman's World Champion instead of a woman who worked tirelessly for years and outperformed other women to win?

Nothing gross about it. Your biological sex is your sex.

Wow just dropping all pretense and going straight for naked bigotry. Neat.
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Corrik7 posted...

unfairly pushing out actual women.

*sigh*
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Theres so much wrong with that guy, you dont need to insult his height
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Eddv posted...

Hey if you're willing to spend like a 14th hour a week watching WWE knock yourself out.

11 episodes left!
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Yao posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

Corrik7 posted...

Yao posted...

It's nothing like gay marriage where that is absolutely necessary because we all deserve the exact same rights. The thing that rubs some people the wrong way and maybe this is corriks issue, is that what trans people often demand is above what everyone else is entitled to. You made a choice to transition which is absolutely fine, but now you shouldn't be upset if everyone doesnt go above and beyond the way they would treat anyone and everyone - the same.

Sorta. Transgender people should be accommodated as much as possible. Why shouldn't we? But, it cannot be done to the extent that it becomes a detriment to others. That has to be understood.

Trans people competing in sports is a detriment to no one

Those kids competing for no university scholarships might disagree

Do you have cases where a cisgender athlete has lost a scholarship to a transgender athlete?
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Corrik7 posted...

Jakyl25 posted...

Corrik7 posted...

Yao posted...

It's nothing like gay marriage where that is absolutely necessary because we all deserve the exact same rights. The thing that rubs some people the wrong way and maybe this is corriks issue, is that what trans people often demand is above what everyone else is entitled to. You made a choice to transition which is absolutely fine, but now you shouldn't be upset if everyone doesnt go above and beyond the way they would treat anyone and everyone - the same.

Sorta. Transgender people should be accommodated as much as possible. Why shouldn't we? But, it cannot be done to the extent that it becomes a detriment to others. That has to be understood.

Trans people competing in sports is a detriment to no one

Yes, it obviously is.

Explain. They dont dominate the competition. They lose a lot more than they win.
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As would 1-2-Switch
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Corrik7 posted...

I like when I respond everyone is up in arms, yet the poll was nearly 78% no. On a forum where I would expect the results to skew closer to yes than actual America would.

Which just shows how far we have to go to keep fighting
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Corrik7 posted...

Yao posted...

It's nothing like gay marriage where that is absolutely necessary because we all deserve the exact same rights. The thing that rubs some people the wrong way and maybe this is corriks issue, is that what trans people often demand is above what everyone else is entitled to. You made a choice to transition which is absolutely fine, but now you shouldn't be upset if everyone doesnt go above and beyond the way they would treat anyone and everyone - the same.

Sorta. Transgender people should be accommodated as much as possible. Why shouldn't we? But, it cannot be done to the extent that it becomes a detriment to others. That has to be understood.

Trans people competing in sports is a detriment to no one
---

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Apparently theres another 3 months for 99 cents total deal on the WWE Network again
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Also why is a Last Man Standing match the solution to a scenario where neither guy could get up for 20 minutes
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Something else that bothered me

Why did Drake Maverick go to Raw instead of his honeymoon?
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GranzonEx posted...

Nintendo finally selling WiiU controllers after all these years of waiting

*Jakyl25 liked this post*
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