Lurker > ctesjbuvf

Wall, I think you've been reasonable throughout this game, so if you're town, please listen to me here. I need to realize that you are set on a conclusion and are now reading stuff with the intend of making it fit your narrative, not the other way around. This is while you're also not responding to half the points presented to you. JC presented a point to you that if I was scum, I'd have risked actual town killing power outing me immediately by claiming. You called this wifom and instantly ignored it, but it's not truly a wifom case (ironic considering stuff like "scum would purposely shot the most unlikely scum target" is). Your case fully builds on the premise that I took this risk and was lucky that no killing power existed and that scum gave up shooting power to make this gambit. It was not wifom thrown at you, it's presenting to you an assumption that your case builds on and asking you if you think that's most likely.

And of course I'm gonna use you going full force on something to try to get a read on you. For what it's worth I think you having read last game and overthinking is the most likely scenario, but I do think it's odd that you went from using my stuff from d1 and early d2 to think "ctes is probably town, probably because I read his gambit in Paper Mario" to use the same stuff to be this confident that I'm scum. That and (and I say this as respectfully as I can) "X being scum is a reasonable conclusion but we learn nothing from the flip if he is" is among the worst reasons to not go after anyone that I recall having seen.

Does Wall make this move as town that gets excited about making points and desperately wants to be right?

What's the scum equity in going full force into me here? Wall wanting to use my flip to springboard onto claimed power JC is not exactly gonna work. Is it getting attention away from anything?

wallmasterz posted...

Look, isquen might be scum. Its a reasonable conclusion atm. But what the hell will it really tell us if he is? And what Im slowly allowing myself to consider, wtf if hes somehow town? Isquen has already decided to roll over and play dead lol. We can revisit.

I dont know the specifics of how vigilante typically works but ctes blew his load n1. Therefore Im assuming if hes telling the truth (I doubt this so much now, to say the least) he is now town vanilla status most likely, right? I cant see where its any more harmful a mislynch than a hypothetical where claimed town vanilla Isquen surprises us all by turning up town.

I think what the "hell will it tell of if Isquen is scum" as a reason to not vote there is perhaps the worst point you've made you've made today.

A lot of this attack is based on someone playing 4D chess and yet when JC makes a much simpler defense of me, he gets a wifom argument thrown directly at him.

wallmasterz posted...

You heard it here first folks there is no meaningful info to discern from Chris being scum (and going to sleep)

This is like journalist levels of misquoting, take those words out of the parenthesis. Chris himself was scum and was on the table but went to sleep and didn't return. This is all known. But you're making a point that I should know Death was town because otherwise Chris would not go to sleep. We literally know he went to sleep despite scum being on the table.

wallmasterz posted...

I know I read the exchange about the list 3 or 4 times now lol. Isnt the list thing more consistent with concussed town? Wouldnt scum be a little more focused than that?

And yet you ask me to repeat myself. I said back then I had held back a bit because of the mentioned concussion.

Sultan tends to be towncleared on making blunders like that, so no, I don't think so.

Shooting Death is simply a horrible read because it has been proved wrong. I felt good about it when I made it.

Some of these posts feel a bit like choosing a conclusion first and trying to have everything fit the narrative. Partly but not only because you're attacking a bunch of things here late into day 3 that you knew already day 2.

I don't think Chris being scum and going to sleep tells us anything about anyone given that it got himself killed.

wallmasterz posted...

So you felt so strongly about your painfully obviously wrong read on death you killed him n1 instead of sultan, someone you suspected so strongly you were willing to vote for him without even properly catching up?

Man I was the only vote on him at the time. I had skimmed the second half of the topic to know it would not change my current view on Sultan at the time, I just mads that remark to let it be known I was not completely dug into what what was also happening

Sultan going for Chris was obviously a point towards him being town once Chris flipped. Death pulled a give up move that had just made Peaf ride a full game as confirmed town in the eyes of everyone. I thought Death and Chris voting for the same person and not each other looked bad.

I mean, I'm not going to act like shooting Death was not a huge misplay on my part

wallmasterz posted...

Could you elaborate here on your unrelated reasons. Also, Ill have to go back and review the timeline here and your normal activity times, I know time zone is a factor for you but

Yes, but I'm honestly a bit tired of repeating this part at this point hence why I said you would know. I thought Sultan's reasoning towards voting JC for his list day 1 was pretty backwards. He did not seem as if he had a specific reason for that vote but seemed to jump between a few different reasons. Then the whole thing about not realizing I was asked to make a list despite being told numerous times.

wallmasterz posted...

He made a point to get everyones opinion on the possibility of death not being the intended target, really created that narrative, then used it to turn around and claim.

Doing it other way around wouldn't make it usable. Scum obviously would know they didn't do it, I was trying to deduce who sounded like they knew and who did not. Of course Sheep disappeared the whole day and Ulti was annoyingly unwilling to corporate with me then.

Well that seems reasonable enough

Morning Wallz, can you tell me of what the current game state is to you?

Or point me to it if you already did it.

Sultan why did you attack Crescent for claiming miller d2 when you had not claimed this?

Although Sultan's claim seems to work with how there is no ordinary tracker.

I think JCs point about Sultan made movement miller is really good though.

wallmasterz posted...

Im asking ctes to explain why he was the sole vote on chris blatantly obvious mislynch candidate, then ctes didnt move to death when there was a train on the guy, and then killed town death n1 as if Chris flipping scum somehow made death a more appealing option?

try an iso of ctes. It will take you 5 minutes (unless on mobile lol) to get to topic 4. He barely bothered even pretending to try solving the game until a little bit of d2 where he didnt vote for anyone. His biggest effort d1 was being Chris list making assistant. He has been most vocal today which has been a s*** show for town so far, and in my eyes a golden opportunity for ctes to look busy without getting us any closer to actually solving the game.

See I get your perspective on most of this, but throwing down a vote on d2 would have just ended day early without starting next day earlier, thus doing nothing but just deny town the chance to talk more.

Chris made such great points on town Sheep that he was still lynched the next day. Chris' then "weak" attacks on Sultan seemed to be more about having not played with Sultan for a long time, it does not say much about the latter's alignment to me.

In Elden Ring Sultan was town cleared immediately and then only killed as the final scum once everyone alive was towncleared and they had to get back and rethink where they were wrong.

wallmasterz posted...

ctes, can you walk us through your reasoning for how youve voted so far?

d1, you voted for sultan. You were the only vote on sultan at day end. Chris tried to force sultan so hard it was a literal red flag for many people. Now, sultan is on your relatively short confirmed town list (presumably because Chris flipped scum). Whyd you vote for sultan d1?

n1, you shot town death. If you lacked the conviction to vote death d1 when he was a viable Lynch candidate why would you

If you did an iso of me you'd already know these answers.

I was on Sultan before Chris was for reasons unrelated to what I had only skimmed yet at the time. But it was getting late here and looking unlikely I would be able to read through completely before day ending.

I don't think Chris' case on Sultan town confirmed Sultan at all. Chris had already made weak defenses of town confirmed Death and likely town JC. Might as well be bussing that lacked proper reasoning, or rather had a bit outdated reasoning because Chris hasn't seen Sultan play these past many games.

Chris' flip was what part of what made me think Death was scum. This is painfully obviously wrong in hindsight, but once I read end of day properly I thought Death was faking his ans Chris' votes made it look like a pairing.

Yet Chris' weak defense of Death was because he just knew so I don't see why this could not apply to Sultan.

I had not cleared Sultan D2 like most. The reason I cleared him is explained throughout day 2 when talking about the Sheep flip and end of last topic start of the current one. Han made Ulti think he had a cop scan of Sheep as scum, he made it clear he did not. Sultan then after it was cleared up and votes Sheep. I was thinking that a Sultan that knows Sheep is town would not vote like that, especially because Han never really said he was Cop to begin with.

I was asking about people about this earlier because I don't think Sultan has looked as town as most people seems to think.

I had no vote yesterday because Sheep's death was inevitable, I was fine with it, and there was no point in ending day earlier for me.

BlueCrystalTear posted...

Okay. Lynch me for theorizing, then.

GG scum.

Is that not what you do yourself literally all the time.

Hey Lea what's your poe at this point?

HanOfTheNekos posted...

But Ctes, thought exercise - why would Scum redirect JC to Ulti?

Do you think this is unlikely enough that it's worth looking at Ulti/JC?

Doesn't have to be Sultan.

I mean, I don't believe scum redirected JC to Ulti.

HanOfTheNekos posted...

And can I ask why? Even if you've already stated it?

I think already yesterday it was pretty difficult for any of them to be lying. There's scum somewhere else just floating by at the moment.

HanOfTheNekos posted...

I mean, I think Sultan is Town anyway. He could fake believing a Cop non-claim, but really, it's totally within Town Sultan's playbook to miss things when he has a bunch of posts to keep up with.

Question - do you believe that there IS a Town Bus Driver?

It's not just fake believing a cop scan, it was doing so after it had already been revealed fake.

It seems most likely based on the targets.

I fully believe trying to look at Ulti/JC is the wrong approach here.

The reason Sultan made my town list is that I don't think scum Sultan votes Sheep believing you had a cop scan on him after you had already said you did not have a cop scan on Sheep. What do you make of that read?

Ulti is uncountered protection, most likely to draw a shot. Bus drive would then save him.

I still think the bus drive makes the most sense from a town perspective.

I feel a little hit stock here. I think most people look "fine".

I'm having a hard time reading Isquen. I think I've been pretty good at that actually after being wrong about him the first time we played together, but there's very little to judge by.

Also Han you said there was a reason none of Ulti, Lea and Crescent entertained you, but Ulti said a few times you were the one person on the Chris lynch he could see being scum.

I would rather operate under 4 scum to be safe. There are a bit many ifs presented here, which includes Chris needing to hammer the day 2 lynch and protection never working.

wallmasterz posted...

I think the likeliest explanation is scum does not have an unblockable kill because why in the world would they not use it on bulletproof doctor.

In that case they probably don't believe that he is in fact bulletproof doctor.

Carol's first actor actually only shows up in the second episode, she's only mentioned in the pilot. I remember this because it'd have made more sense to me if it was the pilot and not episode 2 just to get recast so shortly afterwards.

Han, I voiced that I thought you could be scum and given what I'm playing a game here where the purpose of one faction is to lie, I want to be able to do this to any player in game regardless of how town confirmed anyone might believe they are without being insulted like this.

You can tell me why I should think otherwise of course, but accusing me of saying you would actively harm yourself is rude and also a bit against the spirit of the game.

HanOfTheNekos posted...

Needlessly insulting is you accusing me of self-harm.

I did not ever do this.

HanOfTheNekos posted...

I know it's a part of these games, but I don't play them to be accused with arguments that actively avoid intellect.

And this is just needlessly insulting.

JC is not wrong about mentioning wifom. I do not want to think you would not use these arguments in bad faith but that also just means it's problematic to bring up ever.

Like this suddenly became uncomfortably personal to me, I truly am sorry if you had that experience d1, but you've played mafia in forever, right, so it should not surprise you if such an interaction doesn't clear you in the eyes of anyone.

And I barely even pushed you, I voiced a few lines of concern.

I'm not saying what you're saying can't be true and that you can't be town, don't act like you aren't an established enough player that it's unreasonable to still suspect you. For all I know you could be legitimately frustrated as scum with Chris.

I think getting this frustrated that someone is suspecting you (or hell, not putting you on their certain town list) despite that interaction ridiculous to state as either alignment. In itself I always think players pointing to behavior specific reasons for why they can't be scum is super suspicious. Like I guess I'm sorry if you're being honest here, but I want to be able to voice my suspicions even if you don't think they make sense.

HanOfTheNekos posted...

There is no reason anybody who has seen me in a game with Lopen thinks I'm Scum for real here.

What kind of an argument is this

Like seriously, I actually don't understand it.

Chaeix posted...

And actually an extra kill wouldnt make sense with Chris role at a glance? It would allow a double vote and extra kill for super early mylo?

Does that thought make sense or am I off base

Yeah someone (I think Crescent) said the same thing yesterday. I'd say it's unlikely too.

I am concerned about you, Han, my dear mason vig pal. When I day 1 considered you and Chris putting on a show I wasn't really kidding. I held back because you buried him, but I don't think that's out of your game. I don't feel like most of your detective work is done in good faith while you're usually all over trying to push for information. I know because it tends to get on my nerves lol (in a good way).

Also the more jokey reason is that you haven't really been suspecting me early on like you have done literally ever other game we have played together (I have never played with scum Han before).

Ironically except the one time I was actually scum, so maybe I really am the scum lol.

wallmasterz posted...

One thing seemed clear before and is more obvious than ever, jc and ctes are linked for sure

Because I'm defending him?

If you want to believe Ulti saved Crescent yesterday you basically have to believe JC is town.

That on top of JC most likely bring the scan.

Why are you pushing him so hard

What are you talking about, he's just saying they would not want it not that they necessarily knew it would happen

I would not think the bus drive tells us anything about BCT's alignment.

I think we need to look at the amount of claimed vanillas and realize there's probably at least two scum in that pool.

I seriously doubt she scanned anyone scum. That'd be reason to claim, which she explicitly tells us she has no reason to. She would also probably not freak out as much about being outed because she would know the whole scum team learned her identity that way.

I can perhaps humor going through the rest, but it looks pretty clear to me. That she's a bit confusing about it afterwards is probably on purpose if anything.

From going through her posts from most recent until that one, I felt good about her not having scanned Sheep, MZero nor Han. I also don't think she scanned Death.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


Na, nah, this is NAI, we're just not usually both alive this long, mostly because of you getting shot.

Of course back then you were partially alive because I didn't want to have you killed, so maybe I am the scum lol.

It's her replying to you asking jer of how bad she thought JC looked end of d1

She says

"Bad enough that if I were cop I probably would've scanned him."