Lurker > pjbasis

th3l3fty posted...

no

it was just a bad idea to make a trade five minutes out with ten saves left

in a den of liars and thieves maybe

NominateMoogle posted...

what happened?

they saw an honest trade happening and decided to blitz the round

that was pretty scummy of ya'll ngl

yes poke

trading for rinoa in 5

TeamRocketElite posted...

Something I've been wondering about Zelda 1 Second Quest. How was the player supposed to figure out they can just walk through some walls in a dungeon? As a kid, I think I just ran at a wall because I was angry at it and then it just worked.

I don't know when you first encounter a wall like that, but there is a point in one of the dungeons where a staircase spits you out into a room that sequesters you to one wall. It doesn't blow up when you bomb it and there's absolutely no other way out. So you just reset the game or try pushing against it.

lol I have adhd or somethin

Saw my save was up in 2 minutes, decided not to start distracting activty, and now it's like 20 minutes later.

Rinoa

Let's be clear, Zelda 1 did not have "cracked" walls at all. The game would be utterly trivialized if it were.

Zelda 3 has less bombable walls because of variety for secrets, sure, but that doesn't explain why there are shown visible cracks. I can't say for sure why they made this decision beyond "make it easier" but it's also true that this does NOT trivialize Lttp the way it would have zelda 1.

TeamRocketElite posted...

Yeah, I meant every location with a visible entrance to tell the player to stop looking for more.

What also helped me is realizing that I think more than 80% of the overworld tiles have something. Being unable to find anything of value (or devalue, door repairs...) on a screen is the exception.

Hbthebattle posted...

isn't this hypocritical from someone who complained that visible bombable walls insulted your intelligence

Modern games substitute the challenge that zelda 1 provides with other kinds. You'll notice that link to the past for example doesn't have nearly the amount of bombable walls zelda 1 has. Because even they knew putting a visible sign essentially removes the entire point. At the very least having very infrequent cracked walls can make it harder to find since you're not constantly on the look out.

Squall

Ooh he is actually trending out of the top 10 in a contest or two? that's exciting!

you can't have rich in a sandwich that's what I always say to the sushi

Again too much on developer intent. I understand the less than honest ways games can be hard of the era. And like the way I said that EVERY game doesn't need to be fair, it's also true that not EVERY, or even most games, need to be unfair. That era was knee deep in that shit, and zelda isn't even on the upper end of BS.

But just throwing it all away because some of the motivations were impure doesn't mean there wasn't something lost in the name of "fun" that just means you can beat the game with modest effort. Like, it's alright dude, you don't have to play and like zelda 1. Not every game is designed to be fun for you specifically.

Anyone who's played fighting games understands every game has legitimately bad match ups. I think you're focusing way too hard on developer intent. Obviously it's MEANT to be fair, but that's actually an almost impossible standard to achieve because it's hard.

Hbthebattle posted...

Difficulty can be fun, but unfairness never is.

Spoken like someone who never played a competitive game!

_Blur_ posted...

I just think Zelda 1 does it extremely poorly and it is indeed "old design bad" to me.

I mean it's certainly not perfect or anything, but often I find these arguments are actually purely subjective because it comes down to "I didn't get it, so I hate it" or "I DID get it, so I like it"

I feel like this gets into a whole can of worms though where I can describe some types of game design as like climbing a mountain, because the mountain wasn't meant to be climbed. Do we really need all game design things to be well communicated? Do we need to beat every game? Why not have some things that are just there because it's difficult and it IS unfair but that's just how it is.

Samus Returns good remake.

I would argue there is context though. It's just not direct. There are patterns you can pick up on like I mentioned before. Only 1 "secret" per screen, defined as a place Link can move to an "underground" scene from the world map. Like if there's a shop in a screen, there won't be anything else. It's not like every screen even has walls that are bombable in the first place. In dungeons, it's very easy to find out what to bomb if you just look at the map (also because only the centers of walls will be bombable). Only does the overworld have some tough calls to find. Really a bigger complaint no one has mentioned is how the game punishes you for discovering secrets and taking your rupees sometimes. I think that's dumb. And you should definitely be able to carry more bombs. I get that they're powerful in battle though, but maybe it could be just be easy to refill on the world map when you're trying to use them for discovery purposes.

iono my point is that lots of zelda dumbed things down way too far. To me a lot of things you call context insults my intelligence almost as much as arrow just pointing to things. What more modern games do is put genuine puzzles behind these "hidden" areas. Metroid games often show you the item you even want but make it difficult to get unless you know how to use your items well. Which is great! But I think it's way too simple to just do the "old game bad!" here.

Half-Life

Rinoa

Like for 4 year olds sure

Squall

Yeah it sure is annoying that Metroid 1 keeps winning. Hope the stuffer just cuts it out already and doesn't make it win the whole thing or anything...!

Cracked walls are not context they're just purple doors that open with your purple key

Yeah the biggest thing is I wish Kirby was really incentivized to get and use the copy power of his opponents.

But base inhale is too useful as a command grab especially when you can only get a shitty neutral B

what happened to wiegraf

I mean yes but also speak for yourself my guy.

When you use the same narrative technique as Bleach there's mega doubt to be had

Maybe I'm just familiar with the game but I think you can even start to get a feel for how the designers like to hide things.

Valkyrie

They're too stingy with them though. You should be able to carry like 20 bombs

When you discover that almost every tile on the world map has exactly 1 "secret" it becomes a little easier to hunt.

azuarc posted...

It's simple that the other two were never accessible to begin with.

No way at least for Zelda. A modern day player should still be able to find a 3-5 dungeons and feel like they progressed a bit before giving up.

Rinoa

Yeah Metroid is small enough that you don't need a map I think. Just really needed to respawn with full health.

Granted, some areas could stand some differentiation to help with navigation without a map.

Squall

if me or dante won't who will

WazzupGenius00 posted...

game guides were around in Japan by the time of Zelda; as far as I can tell they really took off after Tower of Druaga in 1984

looking it up apparently smb1 was one of the most popular strategy guides of japan in 85

the strength of the bow determines the speed of the arrow

neonreaper posted...

I would also heavily object to the idea that Zelda was designed to sell guides.

Guides weren't even around yet right? It was definitely designed to get you talking about the game with friends if you got stuck though.

Still only caught up to part 4. But I'm gonna be reading part 9 before it's over

I think I died like 50 times before kakariko, at least 20 of which were accidental bomb self destructs

Mario 1 can be enjoyed by anyone today. You need a bachelor's in NESology to get through adventure games of the era

Wonder how far they could get

It interacted with Boo weirdness, nobody wants to see that shit be permanent anyway lol

I should really give Super a read one of these days, or watch I guess. Which one is "better"?

I thought that was pulling a sword out

whatever I'll give him that one anyway

swordz9 posted...

This is a series where a big green guy put his hands on two people and magically made them stronger.

At least you can't use a latent power gimmick twice!

swordz9 posted...

The same series where a guy can chant circles around you and make you stronger.

don't remember what this is referring to
swordz9 posted...

A series where they have a magic training room and rarely ever touch it though lol

Real time passes for you in there though! It's not actually doing anything but getting you stronger "for a deadline." They even make it a point not to go in there again because the cost is too great.

Donkey Kong

Squall