Lurker > DeathChicken

Of course she has no way of *knowing* that Dracula's spells are nigh-instant, so perhaps my mocking of this idea is misguided and she will, in fact, try this and just kind of die. Terra isn't the brightest bulb.
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We are thought, and reality, and concept, and the unimaginable

Terra is too busy getting shot in the face during this great plan to charge up a big, winding spell against an opponent who doesn't have cast times. Apparently.
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We are thought, and reality, and concept, and the unimaginable

Jumping is generally pretty stupid versus someone who can fly. They can correct course, you can't. I don't *think* Archer is this stupid, but feel free to correct me.
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We are thought, and reality, and concept, and the unimaginable

I find it highly unlikely that Archer gets to engage Kuja in melee, since Kuja can, y'know...fly back, and meanwhile there are two melee oriented people between Alice and Sora who want to rush from the mighty 8 steps they have to cross. This is the problem when Archer/Cloud/Terra are facing a numbers situation, they can't check everyone barring the proposed Alany stretch where Archer magically checks everyone with his arrow from five feet out.
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We are thought, and reality, and concept, and the unimaginable

If they weren't standing *six steps apart* to begin (someone even counted). Archer is not going to his damn arrow at that distance, he's going to his melee.
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We are thought, and reality, and concept, and the unimaginable

Considering these guys start like five feet apart, I am more inclined to think this is more a matter of "Who can shoot faster, Dracula or Terra?" Answer there is Dracula, if Terra is going for something big like Holy (and if she isn't, I don't think she's doing a damn thing to Dracula. Too tanky for her little stuff).
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We are thought, and reality, and concept, and the unimaginable

Well I thought she was casting Holy like a dumbass and getting killed via trying that against someone faster on the draw? Make up your mind.
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We are thought, and reality, and concept, and the unimaginable

Hell, Dracula's *biggest* spell Demonic Megiddo has no bloody cast time. The cast time is the time it takes for him to say "Demonic Megiddo!" and detonate an area about as big as...well, about as big as the island these guys are standing on, frankly. Which is why I think if he's chucking this stuff at Terra then most likely he's also chucking them at Archer by sheer proximity.
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We are thought, and reality, and concept, and the unimaginable

Her smaller spells, sure. Holy, no. Holy has a cast time (even the crappier Dissidia version. FF6 Holy would most certainly get her killed).

I buy that she could get off her rinkydink stuff, but no, I do not buy her charging up big spells from this close versus Dracula, who just needs to point at you and suddenly fireballs are everywhere and more fire geysers are under your feet.
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We are thought, and reality, and concept, and the unimaginable

At the sort of range these guys start at? Terra trying to charge up any sort of bigger spell is ludicrous. She would get hit in the face by Dracula's insta-spells and die. Just a matter of a girl with cast times versus a guy who doesn't have any.
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We are thought, and reality, and concept, and the unimaginable

But yeah, assuming a situation where Archer solos everyone and Alice doesn't exist and Archer's well-noted lack of magical durability isn't a thing versus two high class mages and Cloud is free to do whatever in spite of Sora and Dracula's AoE spells don't behave like Dracula's AoE spells generally would on a tinyass terrain, sure. Your argument holds water.
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We are thought, and reality, and concept, and the unimaginable

My Terra respect is apparently quite less than most in the best of times, but yeah, I pretty much think here Dracula nukes her to death *and* Archer gets caught up in the AoE, since all of Dracula's attacks tend to fill up large chunks of territory. Not complicated.
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We are thought, and reality, and concept, and the unimaginable

I'm looking at that fight right now (why, why am I watching Advent Children) and...not really? That fight is Cloud doing the Flynning sword clash thing for like five minutes with the Sephlings, then eventually he breaks out something resembling Blade Beam. Otherwise he keeps it to the dreaded Sword Clashing of Doom.
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We are thought, and reality, and concept, and the unimaginable

He doesn't Omnislash him until Sephiroth makes him *super duper MAD* with a stab and Taunt #248, so probably not?
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We are thought, and reality, and concept, and the unimaginable

No, I think you're criminally overrating Archer's ability to deal with magic on the caliber of Kuja and Dracula while also criminally underrating Alice's ability to be a big pain in the ass. I think you're also using one on one scenarios that Archer admittedly does very well in to justify hyping him to hell and back in a scenario that's actually very little like the scenario he faces here. Namely that there are more people and more sheer *everything* flying that can put him down.
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We are thought, and reality, and concept, and the unimaginable

I can summarize that Cloud/Sephy fight as thus. "Cloud and Sephy are Flynning their swords! Sephy throws Cloud away. Sephy taunts. Cloud and Sephy are Flynning their swords! Sephy throws Cloud away. Sephy taunts."

*repeat for ten minutes*

"Sephy stabs Cloud! Taunts! Omnislash lol Cloud wins"
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We are thought, and reality, and concept, and the unimaginable

Personally? I put lugging a complaining Shirou around just a bit lower on the scale than having to deal with an invincible banshee. You are essentially writing Alice off as nothing, when if she slows Archer down *at all* then he's probably going to die.

Hell, it even fits Wang's narrative up there. Target 1, down. Target 2...Target 1 is back up. Target 1 won't die for whatever reason. Target 2 shoots you while Target 3 is also shooting you and you die.
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We are thought, and reality, and concept, and the unimaginable

Frankly if he goes for a "single hit or grab" then Kuja nukes and he's done. Any scenario where Kuja gets a clear shot on him and he's done. Any scenario where he gets hit by Dracula's bigger stuff like Megiddo and he's done. Any scenario where he gets wounded by Dracula's other stuff (Megiddo is just the big one, but his spells in general tend to fill large amounts of space) probably opens him up for Kuja to nuke him and he's done.

There are many, many scenarios here in which he gets tagged by any number of people and they all have the firepower to make him very dead, given their power levels and his lack of it when it comes to eating spells.
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We are thought, and reality, and concept, and the unimaginable

You have a literally invincible shrieking banshee hitting him with a sledgehammer. If anything, I see this annoying Archer enough to take a moment he can't afford (not when dealing with magic on the level of Kuja and Dracula) to deal with her crazy ass.
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We are thought, and reality, and concept, and the unimaginable

Yes yes, you enjoy pretending one of my quite good people isn't there to further your narrative. I understand, dear.
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We are thought, and reality, and concept, and the unimaginable

Anyway it's all largely irreverent to the situation at hand, since I don't see any real scenario where Archer immediately gets into melee with Kuja before he hops back and fries him. I *really* don't see any scenario where Archer lands a killing shot on Kuja before Alice jumps on him and he has Dracula's fireballs to contend with. Again. This is a situation where Archer is being called upon to check three people, and going "He's Archer and he's dumb" ad nauseam doesn't point to any situations showing that he can even do this.

Decking Caster one on one (when she was being Caster and taunting him endlessly with no cover between them), holding off Berserker in melee. I want feats where he takes out someone of this level while also dealing with attacks from someone *else* probably around that level and someone *else* who most certainly isn't, yet is annoying and literally can't be hurt for a period of time. Show me those.
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We are thought, and reality, and concept, and the unimaginable

Rider's the only one who somehow manages to job even harder than Caster on most routes, so that's no great example
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We are thought, and reality, and concept, and the unimaginable

Not really. In the FF9 scenario it was him versus at least three people (depends on how you interpret Final Fantasy boss fights, whether it's just your 'chosen' party or everyone) with no one to block. Usually a bad idea for a mage, but apparently Kuja is tougher than your average mage and gave no fucks about taking on an entire party on his own.

Here he has melee up front to block, AoE magic to otherwise get in Archer's way, etc. Far more advantageous, doubly so when Archer in no way shape or form is gonna live once Kuja nukes him.
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We are thought, and reality, and concept, and the unimaginable

I'd certainly put the FF9 party above Rin when it comes to a fistfight (hey look at me, I'm hyping Zidane. Kind of), so no, not really. Caster just kind of sucks and Archer beating her says little about Archer being good.
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We are thought, and reality, and concept, and the unimaginable

That's Caster's thing, really. She's never any great shakes in a fight (comparatively speaking anyway). If she gets into one without her huge amounts of prep, she tends to lose. She lost to, off the top of my head, Saber, Gilgamesh, Archer, Fake Assassin, kung fu Rin...
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We are thought, and reality, and concept, and the unimaginable

It gave Archer an utterly clear shot from ground level to Caster hovering above. He used it, she died (after trying to throw up a shield in front of the arrow that didn't work). That was one of the worst tactical plans she could have come up with.
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We are thought, and reality, and concept, and the unimaginable

We did go over that before, yes. Doesn't work that way.
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We are thought, and reality, and concept, and the unimaginable

I should clarify, I don't think he jobs to any old low level spell. But he's looking to eat spells from Trance Kuja and Dracula here while trying to stop whatever physical attacks are coming from in front of him. I'll say again, that's silly even for Archer hype (and frankly a little beyond his shown feats. That's dopier than beating Caster when she began a mile above him with nothing to get in the way of his arrow, etc)
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We are thought, and reality, and concept, and the unimaginable

The goggles somehow flew off his face and the ricochet of the bullet cut him, so yeah. Magic goggles made of adamantium (or Advent Children just being a dumb movie, take your pick)
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We are thought, and reality, and concept, and the unimaginable

Basically he's being given credit to check three people here. Two of which directly should be able to drop him if they land a clean shot. That's...odd, even for Archer hype.
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We are thought, and reality, and concept, and the unimaginable

I *really* fail to see how Archer can take down Kuja if he's also being hit by Drac (seems likely to me given Drac's love of AoE spam), plus dealing with whatever Alice is up to. I don't think he can really tank Drac with his magic defense being what it is. Demonic Megiddo would kill him about as surely as Flare Star.
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We are thought, and reality, and concept, and the unimaginable

Hey, it's the first and most obvious thing when it comes to demonstrations of Sora over Cloud. The fact the trend proceeds to amp up as the series goes on, to the point where Sora is eventually soloing Cloud and all of his pals, is gravy.
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We are thought, and reality, and concept, and the unimaginable

Not dehyping Cloud (nowhere in any of my arguments have I gone 'Cloud sucks!'). I am vehemently saying that Sora is better, since...well, we have entire games devoted to showing that he is, to the point where he's kind of a Mary Sue. Flat.
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We are thought, and reality, and concept, and the unimaginable

Flatly? We have an entire game devoted to pointing out how Sora is above the likes of Squall, Cloud, and insert whatever other FF character you'd like in a fight, to the point where he holds his own with Sephiroth in a fight (doesn't beat him, but holds his own). This game also goes out of its way to point out he was in a fight with Hercules and beat him, while Hercules enthusiastically declares that he wasn't holding back. Sora is insanely good.

Now I get why my direct Mercs opponent Lopen would try and dehype my guy (hi Lopey), but I wonder about this other weird dehype.
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We are thought, and reality, and concept, and the unimaginable

Also I see we're playing the "But that version wasn't as good as the current version!" game. To which I'll point out that was Kingdom Hearts 1 Sora. This version is after he gets his great big upgrade in KH2, access to every form besides Final, etc.

I'll just post the obvious vid too, of where he beats Cloud, Squall, Yuffie and Tifa on his own.


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We are thought, and reality, and concept, and the unimaginable

I just think it's frankly disingenuous as fuck to try and claim a tie in a fight where one dude was out on one knee and the other was fine.
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We are thought, and reality, and concept, and the unimaginable

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3Oa6kfA6d8&t=1m48s

No, no they didn't. That's a solid "One guy got whupped and it wasn't Sora."
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We are thought, and reality, and concept, and the unimaginable

I think if that happens we get my proposed scenario. Sora beats Cloud, Dracula throws his AoE stuff and takes out Terra, Archer laughs off Alice, Alice comes back, Kuja nukes the shit out of Archer while he's probably also being hit by Drac's AoE stuff.

Just a lot of mayhem to go around, really. Bad part of it for their side is that a good deal of it will flatten Archer if it hits him, since he does *not* want to be tanking magic.
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We are thought, and reality, and concept, and the unimaginable

That's lovely, literally everyone on my team flies besides Alice, so...
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We are thought, and reality, and concept, and the unimaginable

I'm also thinking it's quite likely given the distance that he gets nailed by Drac in here too, probably while Drac is killing Terra or whoever. Throwing fire every whichway is kind of what he does.



Frankly Archer is mean, but Archer is overwhelmed here by spells from every direction and a pesky "ant" who just won't die.
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We are thought, and reality, and concept, and the unimaginable

I'm not even arguing that Alice beats him (that's admittedly never gonna happen), I'm arguing that he kills her dead, gets distracted by the fact she's suddenly no-selling, and that's really all it takes for Kuja to put out his lights. If he gets held off at all long enough for Kuja to nuke, he is dead.
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We are thought, and reality, and concept, and the unimaginable

EveAlany posted...

KanzarisKelshen posted...

Kuja > Archer (Archer's magic defense is notoriously crap),

Yeah, but see.
Archer > Caster and Caster's a much better combatant than Kuja.

Also a one on one fight with different circumstances. Caster began with enough distance between them that Archer basically just shot her to death while she tried and failed to block it. He also didn't have any number of people like two feet away from him to eat up his attention.

For whatever the result of an Archer vs Kuja battle, Archer vs Kuja and Alice is *much* worse for him just because he straight up can't hurt her for 20 seconds. I visualize it irritating the crap out of him long enough to get spell bombed.
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We are thought, and reality, and concept, and the unimaginable

Given the starting locations, I give him about two seconds before Alice is on him. Then he kills her, then he finds he *can't* kill her for whatever reason, and then Kuja kills him. In that order.

All that has to happen here is for Kuja to nail him and I think he's toast.
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We are thought, and reality, and concept, and the unimaginable

Also really doubt anyone is buffing here. It's...very short range territory, given the description.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7NGQ4d4POAc&t=0m21s
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We are thought, and reality, and concept, and the unimaginable

Nope. Celes gets it naturally, Terra does not.
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We are thought, and reality, and concept, and the unimaginable

Most everything I did was ability shutdowns, so that makes sense
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We are thought, and reality, and concept, and the unimaginable

Argument sent. Throw as soon as possible if you would, I'm on a plane tomorrow and then I don't know when I'll be around
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We are thought, and reality, and concept, and the unimaginable

Two living corpses and an old woman who has the personality of Satan
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We are thought, and reality, and concept, and the unimaginable

I'm pretty sure the only ones who really can at this point are the White Supremacist types who think he'll further their agenda (whether they will acknowledge actually falling into this category or not), and the "I will gladly shoot myself in the foot if it triggers a Liberal, derp" types
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We are thought, and reality, and concept, and the unimaginable

(It's a wonderfully stupid movie. A PATRIOTIC war vet dies, comes back to life as Zombie Uncle Sam out to kill the UNPATRIOTIC)
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We are thought, and reality, and concept, and the unimaginable