Lurker > HHH_is_the_game

emblem-man posted...

The thing is, both the moderates and left are hating Biden for trying to walk the middle.
The left dislikes the performative Israel critique while sending weapons, and the right/moderates dislikes that he's making performative Israel critiques despite sending the weapons.

Both want him to go all the way in both words and actions. At some point, he just has to choose a lane.

The question is, will the left vote for him in large numbers if we change Israel policy at this point?
Is it enough to just not send weapons anymore? Or do they want a complete cutoff of everything?

You aren't wrong, he is kind of making both sides angry at this point, and not fully appealing to any.

The truth is Biden is screwed no matter what he does. His party is split and if he supports Israel, he angers the progressives, and if he cuts off aid for Israel then he angers the moderates. So it will be a very tight line to walk to try to not hand Trump the election. The party is divided and fighting amongst itself

From a purely strategic point of view, the safer view is probably supporting Israel and pandering to the moderates who are more likely to switch to Trump or not vote (the progressives hate Trump more than anything).

But from a morality point of view, that is a different question.

creativerealms posted...

And X has the worst of both.

This is definitely true....

Sandalorn posted...

"We should all be careful as I ignore this sentence I just made in my next post!"

My next post was admitting the fair point that another poster made.

DrizztLink posted...

Are you planning on actually addressing that issue, or is hand-wringing about it and then changing nothing considered enough personal growth to get by?

I mean, all you can do is try to look at all of the information, and not be too quick to believe what you read. But some of it is a limitation of the world we live in. Social media makes this insane. There is so much information and depending on what you read it's a whole different world out there.

Murphiroth posted...

Imagine trying to both sides an ongoing genocide.

Im sorry but if you just want to ignore Hamas's role in this then the conjecture is pointless. Any question about peace in the region obviously includes what happens with Hamas. Israel didn't just wake up one day and decide to commit genocide for fun. All the events we see are coming from decades of bloody conflict and spiraling violence. So if you want to say both sides are awful fine. But it's impossible to not talk about both sides because there will not be peace without discussing both sides. Israel can stop tomorrow and that would be great, but it will not solve anything, Hamas still has hostages, and the situation that led to this won't have changed at all. If Hamas goes and attacks again, then what happens? We're back where we started

And yes we both need to do this because people in this topic think that the story is Hamas tried to make a good faith peace deal and then the pure evil Israel rejected it, and that is just not the truth, they are ignoring Hamas's actions and intentions completely to paint a picture of events that is not true to reality, and if you want to get to actual peace, you need to deal with both sides of the issue.

Thanatos_the_Great posted...

Maybe that's true (though I doubt it), but that doesn't matter because it would never come to that - if the US president merely picked up the phone and threatened such a thing, Israel would stop what they're doing. That's not speculation, it's what's actually happened in the past more than once. Even Reagan did this, and it worked - and we really should not be in a situation where Ronald bloody Reagan has the moral high ground over a Democrat president.

It's a fair point and I respect your viewpoint

DrizztLink posted...

Yeah, yeah, you're an expert on immediately believing information if it confirms your preconceived notions.

We know.

You're right on this, I fall victim to it too. at least I can admit it. We are far too quick to believe the side we want to believe. We should all try to be careful .

Thanatos_the_Great posted...

He's the US president. He has the power, with the stroke of a pen, to stop the flow of American weapons and money to Israel. He's chosen not to.

He could do that, but cutting off all support for Israel entirely would likely be far more damaging politically than what he's doing now.

Thanatos_the_Great posted...

Is that why they've rejected a deal for the release of Israeli hostages?

And now we see why Hamas does it. This is the narrative that people will now believe, despite this being very far from the actual story

But I WILL say one thing the ceasefire deals SHOULD include is Israel backing out of the west bank settlements, which is BS that they do that, pushing people out of their homes, and it would be an easy show of good faith to just STOP.

ScazarMeltex posted...

Welp, better let the IDF get back to massacring children.

No, we need to get to peace, Hamas does not want peace. I don't know how we attain it with them there to constantly stoke the fires. Most likely we need a two-state solution and intervention from a third party (maybe us) to stop this and lay down the law and stop the violence and aggression from Israel but Hamas in power will make it very hard to ever get to peace, and that's just a sad fact. Netanyahu needs to go too, and replaced by leadership that wants to work towards peace.

The thing is at least Israel has some way of attaining that, they can get a more peaceful influence in place and I hope they do and they get Netanyahu far away from any control. Get SOMEBODY that actually wants to stop this cycle of violence. Maybe it's a far hope but at least there can be some. The palestinians have no way of getting rid of Hamas though, and I have no idea what anybody is supposed to do until they are gone. It seems like the only possible solution is finding a faction of palestinians to support against Hamas but I have no idea how that happens

Do I think Israel government is EXACTLY like Hamas? no. They are pretty awful, but I'd say Hamas is certainly worse. And at least the Israeli government cares about their own citizens, which is more than I can say about Hamas, who purposely puts theirs at risk because it helps them win a PR war, operating out of hospitals and schools, etc. Do you really think Hamas has the Palestinians best interests at heart? Precisely why it's so tragic about the Palestinian plight is because they have nobody on their side. Neither Israel or Hamas is looking out for their best interests.

That's a cool change

Do people who talk about propaganda not realize that they are falling victim to it as well? Of course Israel didn't accept the ceasefire, the ceasefire was meant to be un-acceptable, so that way Israel can be accused of rejecting it and attacking anyway.

A genuine ceasefire would be amazing but what exactly did Hamas offer them in exchange for getting everything they want? A promise that they really really definitely won't attack this time, oh yeah, and also get rid of the blockade? Does anybody really believe that Hamas was not going to attack again? Israel would have to be fools to think that that was a genuine cease fire, and since it seems Hamas decided to accept a ceasefire offer that didn't even exist, their tactics are pretty obvious and everybody here falls for it.....

I want peace there, we all want peace there...I have no idea how it's going to happen, but that ceasefire 'deal' was definitely not the way.....not even to mention that they were demanding a 50-to-1 prisoner-to-hostage trade. But even beyond that the other terms were nonsense.....Nobody would have accepted that.

videospirit posted...

I've always held that "They might go to war with us in the future" is no justification for Israel's treatment of Palestine in the modern age, so the terms of that ceasefire deal look extremely generous to Israel. Hamas admits Israel has a right to exist and promises to stop attacking Israel, and Israel stops doing all the acts of war they have no right to do during peacetime. The only cost to Israel is freeing some prisoners.

It's only generous to Israel if you actually believe that Hamas means a word they say about promising to stop attacking Israel and admitting they have a right to exist.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


trust me I know Im not immune at all.

Its the problem that is growing more and
more apparent in the social media era. The more we form bubbles the more we just get presented different realities and pick and choose what to believe. Both sides do it and it means everybody is outraged by their version of reality. Some people see a thing saying it was two, some see a thing saying it was almost half. And we just accept the one we want.

I am terrified the division on the left on the Israel/Palestine issue will cause Biden to lose the election.

Donald Trump having another presidency, this time even older and more unstable than the last time, with no need for re-election so nothing to lose....it just sounds like a nightmare. I don't love Biden but I'd take anybody besides DeSantis over Trump

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


Im legitimately confused. Most people mean anti-semitic to mean "hostile to or prejudiced against Jewish people". I have heard some point out that you can technically put other people in the 'semitic' box as well, so it should refer to more than just Jewish people. Do you mean that they are using anti-Palestinian rhetoric which is thus anti-semitic? In that case I agree, and they are horrible for that.

Most people though use it as a term to mean anti-Jewish. If you mean the (most likely Jewish) counter-protesters are using anti-Jewish slurs I am very confused.

And yeah, I am trying to be more careful with my posts...I obviously do not want to be banned or suspended. Which is why I try to be clear:

Criticizing Israel is not anti-semitic
MOST protesters are not anti-semitic
The anti-semitic events happening might not even be people affiliated with the protests, just piggy-backing off of the sentiment, or bad actors bringing down the whole lot.
There is no excuse for violence, in any case.

I just wanted some acknowledgement of the anti-semitic events happening that have contributed to the environment of hostility, and is one of the reasons why Biden made the speech he did.

(Update: Allegedly it is this person: https://twitter.com/w0kesolanas)

(I now realize the third tweet is from the same as the first - If this person does not exist and this is all propaganda let me know because I would love to know that it is! Can anybody confirm one way or the other if this video is doctored or what or if this person was made up for propaganda? Her name does come up in past articles as part of a palestinian support group at the school but Im unsure if this is her or what! It is very hard to know what to believe online now)

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


Now the counter protesters are the ones yelling anti-semitic slurs? What??? (Unless you mean anti-Muslim by anti-semitic and not anti-Jewish, which I know some people do use it to mean that way. But usually anti-semitic is taken to mean anti-Jewish.)

There were counter protesters who were also giving genocidal threats and being violent, no doubt. Those people are horrible. But there has also allegedly been a LOT of anti-semitism towards Jewish students at the school, whether it is the protesters or not I don't know, but when this is brought up people deny it...It is a major part of the story though, is that Jewish students are not feeling safe, and not just because people support Palestine or criticize Israel (that is not anti-semitic and well within people's rights), but because anti-semitism is rising and incidents are happening often simultaneously with this protest. This is a big part of why Biden made the speech he did, but people in these spaces don't talk about it....

Please people read this article from the Columbia paper, a rabbi advising jewish students to return home because it was not safe. Many examples of anti-semitism...the link is too long so I needed a shortener but it has a lot of examples and is worth looking at:
https://shorturl.at/vAOU8

There are videos on social media that is also very concerning. Maybe some are fake, but all of them?

Here is an example. Tell me if this is fake...I HOPE it is....Allegedly this is "Tai Lee, a member of Writers Against the War on Gaza (WAWOG)"

https://twitter.com/thestustustudio/status/1781904507611287981
https://twitter.com/ShabbosK/status/1782085741431922909

In the speech she says things like ""Let it be known that it was the Al-Aqsa Flood that put the Global Intifada back on the table again. And it is the sacrificial spirit of the Palestinian Freedom Fighters that will guide every struggle on every corner of the earth to victory." and "On October 7, the Palestinian resistance in Gaza broke through the walls of their open-air prison, shattering the illusion of the invincibility of their occupiers". The crowd then cheers. WTF?

Id want to think this person doesn't exist and it's fake, but more people on Twitter backing up that this is her making a speech at Columbia: https://twitter.com/thestustustudio/status/1783320666369917180

Like there ARE people on this side actively cheering for Hamas.

Anyway, Im sure these people are extremists. But they obviously contribute to the climate and denying they exist and are piggy-backing off of this does not help the pro-palestinian cause....And making a narrative of all the protesters being totally innocent...Im sure MOST of them are but don't ignore and make a narrative that they are all completely innocent and none did anything incendiary at all....Those kinds of fears of having anti-semitism ignored is precisely part of why Jewish students feel unsafe.

The last thing people want to do is have the pro-palestine protests genuine cause come off as feueled by anti-semitism so it is best to acknowledge these bad apples and distance from them, not ignore they exist. That does start making Jewish people feel bad when they see anti-semitics being ignored and not called out with the same fervor. So let's all agree these people suck, the people being racist on both sides of this conflict.

Enclave posted...

Got a better source? Eric Adams, the cops and the NY Post all are unreliable.

well if the cops are not a good source I dont know what source you could possibly want? Nobody else has the information except them lol.

another problem with these things though (in both sides) is anybody is only going to believe the narrative they already believe and everything else is propaganda. Its scary because we cant even agree on reality anymore. Of course every side believes theyre right and viciously hates the other. They live in a reality very different from the other side.

I dont know what we can do about this as a society. But it does make discourse impossible.

NoMeLx22x posted...

Do you have a source for this or are you just making it up?

No idea about career protesters, but it is true that a TON of the protesters were not from the schools: https://nypost.com/2024/05/02/us-news/nearly-half-of-anti-israel-protesters-arrested-at-columbia-city-college-werent-students/

The violent and genocidal counter-protesters that escalated the situation were extremely horrible, for sure, but there is a problem here....depending on which side of things you are on you see a very skewed perspective and narrative. For example this board says that the protests were nice and peaceful then a bunch of bigoted counter-protesters got violent and ruined it. They will signal boost the worst of the counter-protesters (Who are awful, no doubt) but did not post the article about all the anti-semitic behavior that the Columbia students were facing this week (They might not even be protesters themselves, but there is still a narrative missing about the anti-semitism that came along with these protests) so much that a rabbi affiliated with the school said they were not safe and recommended they go home. And Im sure many on the pro-Israel did not see the violent clip of the counter-protesters (my mom had not seen that, only the stuff from the protesters).

bfslick50 posted...

So in a topic about a violent pro-Israel group using genocidal rhetoric, you condemn the violence but didn't mention that they're using genocidal rhetoric. You exclusively acknowledge genocidal rhetoric used by some pro-Palestinian people. Why is that? There is currently a leading American political candidate with a history of anti-Islamic rhetoric and now there's genocidal rhetoric used against Palestinians, that's scary too right?

So, I do want to apologize. Being too fired up I didn't read carefully and did not see the parts about them invoking the 'nakba' (and yes I realize this was mentioned very prominently in the first post)

While I do stand by what I said about anti-semitism in this thread and others, I also do want to say that I condemn their genocidal rhetoric as well, and their violence. Genocidal rhetoric is awful and no matter how they feel about the protests there is zero excuse for that, especially in light of the current events. The people in that video in the first post are awful and their association with Jews is not one I want.

It is scary times for both Jewish and muslim people right now, with all this hate swirling around, and the feelings about the conflict in the Middle East surfacing into hatred against people here.

Those pro-Israeli people in the first post are horrible, and they do not represent me or Jewish people, I reject them and their violence and genocidal rhetoric. We all must rise above this kind of thing. I agree that their rhetoric is scary too, and I would not want to be Palestinian right now having to choose between Trump and Biden. It does sound very scary, I 100% agree.

So I am sympathetic with the protesters and their cause as well, and not sympathetic to those responding in violence.

I just hope everybody remains careful and does not give into hate themselves. Earlier in this thread somebody claimed Israel is the one responsible for anti-semitism because they are being evil and that anti-semitism would not be fueled if they were not. while the first post was deleted the second one still remains. Only one person called it out. I hope we can all agree that such a sentiment is not consistent with left values that rejects such things as anti-semitism and does not give an excuse such as that one. After 9/11 the left vehemently resisted anti-muslim sentiment because it does not matter what extremist terrorists did, anti-muslim prejudice is wrong. Similarly it does not matter what Israel does, anti-semitism is still wrong. Im sure this is not a controversial opinion here so be sure to call out instances of this as well. Because anti-semitism is everywhere and they will jump on these protests. Don't be like the right and make sure these elements are being vehemently rejected especially at such a tumultuous time when both Jewish and Muslim people are afraid

hak145 posted...

i think anti semitism is being created by israel, not the protesters.

I know I said Id disengage but I just wanna point to this as an example of what I mean when I say the left is acting like the right. Seeing these kinds of things in progressive spaces is very disheartening to see, when they are supposed to be the party against this kind of rhetoric.

Thanks Necronmon for calling it out.

CountCorvinus posted...

He'd gain more than he'd lose. Turns out, starving children and genocide isn't a popular opinion. Shocker, I know.

https://www.dataforprogress.org/blog/2024/2/27/voters-support-the-us-calling-for-permanent-ceasefire-in-gaza-and-conditioning-military-aid-to-israel

It's almost like Butcher Biden wants to lose.

That is asking about calling for a de-escalation of violence. A LOT can agree on that. The party is still divided though. It also says below that 53% of democratic voters feel that providing military aid to Israel is at least somewhat important (even if they are more united on helping the Ukraine). But still, if the question asked if we should completely stop providing aid to Israel, I imagine the results would be different.

The fact is you have a party divided, where moderates and progressives are opposed. They might not be as loud on reddit and CE but if Biden was to remove military aid you can bet there would be a lot of upset people on the democratic side as well. But I feel bad for him because there is NO way to make everybody happy here.

Sandalorn posted...

He's a pure hard-liner....he spouts 100% IDF/Bibi level of propaganda. What he says and implies literally turns my stomach and gamefaqs just allows it thread after thread.

Imagine focusing solely on a phrase that has multiple meanings as a call to genocide while also downplaying and ignoring THE ACTUAL GENOCIDE HAPPENING by the country he supports. You simply have to be a horrible person to do that. Horrible.

100% IDF/Bibi level of propaganda? I said that Israel's actions have been horrible. Is that what Bibi says? Anyway I said I would stop engaging, its just frustrating seeing posts like this calling you horrible and ignoring what you are actually saying, refusing to engage with one point, which I believe I have at least done to some people. I don't think Im horrible, but I think the lack of empathy shown by the supposedly empathetic side can be pretty horrible too. I do think there are probably more extreme viewpoints here, and I have to imagine that does not include most people offline.

I continue to think that people are behaving like conservatives and doing things they would call out if the other side did them....but none of us can change each other's minds it seems. I just again say be careful with your messaging because Im not the only one. But again, I will try to stop responding now <_<

I honestly don't know HOW to respond to somebody that refuses to acknowledge why the phrase is problematic. Im sure there are people that say that any criticism of Israel is anti-semitic, but I don't agree with them, as Ive said many times. There are legitimate fears out there that people have that this is an anti-semitic movement. I don't think it's true, mainly, and if it's not true, wouldn't you want everybody to know it isn't true?

Ive seen them chant things that are fair, and also things that are uncomfortable.

If they have so many chants, why do they insist on using the one that sounds violent and is used by hamas and associated with genocide? Or is there a section of the protests, if just a small amount, that are angry and DO like the idea of throwing genocidal things in retaliation for the Israeli genocide? I don't want to believe that, but their insistence is concerning. And I feel like if this was the right doing it, everybody would feel the same way and rightfully call out the behavior.

You have repeatedly refused to acknowledge that there may be a section of the protesting group that is influenced by anti-semitism so you can't be engaged with really.....I've tried numerous times to explain why it's problematic, and why it's problematic how people react when that's pointed out, but it is brushed off and ignored, which is exactly the problem people have in the first place.

Im not even engaging in the topics about the actual conflict anymore, this is about protests and students in America.

I think there is a very valid narrative that some of the protests, while fighting for a valid cause, were far too comfortable making Jewish students feel uncomfortable and using anti-semitic rhetoric, that means while their cause was a good one, maybe the protest itself had issues and was upsetting.

I don't 'care more about the use of this statement than the ongoing genocide' but everybody is already protesting the genocide and it is not a controversial issue here so there's nothing to say. But as a Jewish person obviously seeing that somebody wants October 7 to happen 1000 times is an obviously chilling statement that hits close to home, and to see it brushed off as nothing does make me look at the college protests differently. Ironically the responses are sometimes even worse, because when it's one person you say "well they don't represent the movement", then you come here and instead of people agreeing and condemning those people they just brush it off? Even make a point of saying the same phrases that you talked about why Jewish people have concerns with. For the record, the pro-Israeli counter protestors getting violent do not represent me and the people that want to stop Israel have a right to protest. I think there are very valid reasons to protest Israel, and I don't think protesting Israel makes you anti-semitic (and I have argued such to my family many times, defending the protests). But I do think that people are too comfortable with anti-semitic sentiment and stoking the fires in ways that make me upset. People would feel the same way about anti-Muslim sentiment but when it's concerns of anti-semitism somehow people don't care. And then they defend it because of the actions of Israel's government? Just as there are innocent Palestinians there are innocent Israelis, and of course Jews world-wide that have nothing to do with any of this.

The fact people continually brush it off is scary. Like because of Israel's actions, anything is ok.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]


People don't realize that their rhetoric and responses affects people.

People express how they are feeling worried by what they see as growing anti-semitic sentiment, including sharing space with some of these protesters, including many instances of actual anti-semitic rhetoric and threats.

it is written off as "pointless drivel"

People wonder why people are getting the wrong idea, and say "are they stupid that they can't figure out what the protests mean?"

But yet they don't mind shouting people down and dismissing them and then wonder why people worry.

But here's the thing....once again you guys are engaging in this the wrong way. Even in this thread people refuse to acknowledge the threat of anti-semitic sentiment making its way into the otherwise-valid protests. That feels pretty frightening. Especially with an article posting instance after instance after instance of anti-semitic behavior towards Jewish students (who are, by the way, not in Israel)

So are Jews being 'stupid' ? When they see in front of their eyes that this is how people react? Unfortunately they have a history of a people of devastating effects when things swing in an anti-semitic direction.

So protest Israel all you want, and many Jews will protest right with you, but be careful with your rhetoric because there's also a sensitive population on the other side. Just like if you were to protest Hamas, you would be careful about how the sentiment affects Muslims.

I saw a study on reddit yesterday that said 20% of gen Z polled said they agreed the Holocaust is a myth? WTF??

https://www.reddit.com/r/GenZ/comments/18de5jd/gen_z_is_hopping_on_to_some_worrying_trends/

I don't know YouGov but apparently they are the source of the data and the comments seem to think they are a fairly reliable source? The rates of holocaust denial were higher in democrats than in republicans....

Like there's scary stuff going on in the world for Jews and Muslims alike and this conflict will lead to a LOT of hatred towards undeserved parties. Israel is a very valid target but not Jews in general (even Zionists, is a bit of a weird thing to use, since being anti-zionist could mean you are against Israeli oppression or for many it could mean they don't think Israel should exist at all)

Thanatos_the_Great posted...

Yes, it'll be terrible if Biden lets that happen by putting people off voting for him by supporting the Israeli regime's crimes with weapons and money.

biden is in a terrible spot. If he withdraws aid do you think it wont also drive away voters ? Theres lots of more moderate democrats without a nuanced view of the situation that would see it very badly. Biden is in a terrible position.

Fenriswolf posted...

Tell me, do you think those BLM protesters calling for abolition of police want to round up police and their families to be slaughtered?

No? I mean....is it not obvious why this is not the same thing? Hamas literally did slaughter Jews and their families, so obviously hearing echoes of the language Hamas uses in this situation is EXTREMELY different than anything BLM has said?

Fenriswolf posted...

In contrast, elected far right politicians are openly falling for murder of Palestinians, and calling Palestine supporters "Hamas supporters" is a common dogwhistle.

Yeah, it's EXTREMELY messed up. Hopefully you will be much better than that. There are dogwhistles from the pro-Palestinian side too, so reject them.

It just seems like despite the left being the party that protects minorities, any concerns or worries of antisemitism seem to be brushed off. Even the way 'Zionist' is used as if it was a dirty word, when to many people 'Zionist' just means thinking Israel has the right to exist. By that definition Id think most jews are 'zionists' even if they hate the israeli government and think it needs to be stopped. Zionist does not mean pro-genocide or pro-Israel bombing people, or at least to many it does not.

I guarantee that there are many Jewish people watching these things and feeling frightened about what it will do for anti-semitism going forward, and seeing the anti-semitism that does exist not being called out and rejected, and actually brushed off or defended is really scary to see. ESPECIALLY when its the left of all people.

To be clear, there is nothing anti-semitic about protesting Israel's government and their actions

Fenriswolf posted...

Kindly stop "both siding" rival protesters. A minority of pro-Palestine protesters with bad signs cannot be compared to violent Zionists defending genocide and attacking those that dare to disagree with them. That's like saying BLM protesters are comparable to 1/6 insurrectionists because there were some black nationalists supporting the former, despite the fact that their causes are polar opposites.

Then again, didn't claim that the "from the river to the sea" slogan is antisemitic?

Um...yes, a minority of Pro Palestinians using genocidal rhetoric can be compared to a minority of pro Israel people getting violent about genocide IMO. Calling for Jewish deaths (literally praising Hamas and saying that 10/7 is going to happen 1000 times) and harassing Jewish students to the point that a rabbi was advising them to go home because they were not safe, is comparable to the vile actions by the Israel protesters. 1/6 Insurrectionists were not responding to something like 10/7 so it's a pretty different situation. BLM protesters were not throwing threats at a vulnerable minority population.

I genuinely believe most people are completely sincere in their protests and are looking for peace and for Palestinians to be free from oppression, and for Israeli's brutal war crimes to stop.

But there is also an element of something more sinister standing beside them. And the refusal of the left to acknowledge the problem of anti-semitism co-opting their protests is pretty scary to Jewish people.

Yes, I brought up how that slogan invokes genocide against Israelis and Jews because of its usage by Hamas, and instead of people acknowledging that, they continued to insist on using the phrase, said they don't care about Jewish fee fees, and that a new anti-semite is born every day Israel continues to be evil.

Then we are supposed to not be afraid that there is anti-semitism in these protests?

There is so much propaganda on both sides it's crazy and everybody wants to prove the other side is the evil one. This whole situation is a mess....there are probably people critical of Israel's actions that also don't like the protests because they feel like it is anti-semitic and I do think that more could be done to show that that is not the case, and that the enemy is the Israeli government, not Jewish people or Israeli citizens

The pro-Israel side resorting to physical violence....definitely deranged I agree. But this is no innocent protest either....scary the stuff that is happening now and the anti-semitism wave that is piggybacking onto and riding the waves of this protest

https://shorturl.at/mpF23

This is pretty chilling. People invoking Hamas, saying October 7 is going to happen 1000 times over....etc.

Im sure there is probably anti-Muslim stuff happening too that that article doesn't talk about.

Scary times for jewish and muslim people in the world all because of Israel and Hamas miles away.

Again, this is very different. Black Lives Matter was not possibly harmful to a minority group. People's complaints about Black Lives Matter and about "from the river to the sea" are so massively different, that I don't know how you do not see it.

It's not that it can't be understood what people mean by it. But the refusal to use another phrase when the connotations are called out is very...strange. but whatever...the conversation isn't productive , you guys will not understand what I mean...so I will close it

bfslick50 posted...

Its feeling like the Israeli government wants all land from the river to the sea to be part of Israel so if that saying is a call for genocide then

Theres a provocation, then a war where one side has an overwhelming military advantage, the losing population is squeezed into ever smaller reservations, were actively watching the same play as what happened with Native Americans.

I get why protestors chanting from the river to the sea can be worrying but the powerless are going to lash out. Not everyone in MLKs time was as calm as MLK and not ever advocate for Palestine is going to be able to reproduce his calm now.

This is where this is an interesting dynamic...The powerless lash out against the powerful. But Israel is powerful, Jews are not. Jews in any country besides Israel, are a minority. So this is not black people lashing out at white people. This is something different and unusual. Anti-semitic violence is a legitimate threat that Jewish people feel deeply...So we end up in a situation where the powerless people lashing out might actually not be as harmless as it seems

Reimu posted...

The message is that Netanyahu and the IDF are responding to the October 7th attack with actions that fall under genocide and various other war crimes. What part of that message is difficult to understand?

You misunderstand me. Yes that is the predominant message. But there is also fear that there are those who have hatred for Jewish people and for Israel that want to see it eradicated, wiped off the map, etc. That want anti-semitic violence etc. That is not what the protests are for. They are protests for peace. So they should be careful not to sympathize with Hamas, to use statements that make Jewish people feel uncomfortable because of how it was used in genocidal rhetoric against them, etc...

When you see sentiment moving in that direction you start fearing this is more than just anti-Israel, and if that is not the case, then people should be careful to avoid fueling those fires. Because there are always going to be anti-semitic people jumping at the chance to join these protests. So be wary of them.

I was listening to the ezra klein podcast, and he had people on that had multiple viewpoints about the conflict. There was a very interesting one with a Jewish rabbi from California. She expressed the feelings of being caught in the middle of all this. She preaches of peace, and preaches against Israel...She talks of how the Israeli government is not representing Jewish values, and how their treatment of the Palestinians was not something consistent with what she believes Judaism is. That they need to rise above fear and hatred and treat people with kindness and peace. She also expressed her feelings of betrayal and fear about anti-Jewish sentiment in the wake of things like October 7th and seeing how quick some extremists were to celebrate Hamas's actions or downplay the Jewish pain. It was a very interesting interview of how torn somebody can be in that position of preaching for peace but also feeling the fear of anti-semitism in the reaction of all these events.

Ultimately she preaches that you should feel the pain of all innocent loss, Israeli deaths and Palestinian deaths, and anybody who feels pain for one and not the other needs to examine themselves.

But it was interesting hearing a rabbi who is both anti-Israel but worried about anti-semitic sentiment in the world

CoyoteTheGreat posted...

I mean, what it should be is that the UN should march in and take control of the area, and a strict constitution should be put in place that prevents parties, candidates and laws based on favoring any ethnicity over another. That's the only way at this point to avert a genocide. A two state solution is just a disguise for apartheid. There are no proposals for a real Palestine, there is no state in the world that looks like the maps that have been proposed by Israel with non-continouous borders all over the place and complete military control by Israel. That's not a state.

But what happens then, also there is a big military disparity with Israel and Palestine so what happens with that? Obviously we don't want their resources going to Hamas. And speaking of Hamas, what is done about them? How do we prevent terrorism and war ? Who is in charge?

CoyoteTheGreat posted...

No one wants it because they want to kill each other. If you don't support the frankenstein solution, you either want one side or the other genocided, and you should be honest about that too. A two state solution isn't going to happen, it isn't realistic, and everyone knows that.

What do you think the solution is going to or should be? A two-state solution seems like the most realistic.....how could a one-state solution work? What would happen? How would they prevent deaths?

Reimu posted...

They need to stop only hearing and start listening to the message then. The communication is there, putting fingers in your ears going "LALALALALA" doesn't magically make it go away or change its meaning. Their refusal to listen does not constitute bigotry. People are not going to sugarcoat blatant genocide nor should they have to do so.

There is a problem that didn't really come up in this thread. Some Jewish people likely aren't quite sure what the message is. They watched one of the biggest attacks against Jewish people on October 7th, and they saw people instantly mobilize AGAINST Israel, and even sometimes, defend Hamas as freedom fighters the very next day. I think we can (most of us) condemn both Israel and Hamas for their actions. But there is a lot of anti-semitic sentiment in the world, and it's hard to know always how much of the protest is pro-Palestine, anti-Israel, and how much going to turn to anti-Jewish. Is the protest valid? Yes. But chants like this only muddy the waters. Anti-semitic sentiment growing is a scary thought. For example, people after 9/11 turned their legitimate grievance against Muslim terrorists into anti-Muslim sentiment completely. So, Israel's bad actions, we don't want to see that legitimate anger turned into anti-JEWISH sentiment, or pro-Hamas. Some people in this thread have made pretty chilling statements.

And while Im sure the majority of the protesters are not anti-semitic, there are likely some who are, and seeing chants that have been co-opted by Hamas to genocidal ends used in these places? (Even in that one video where somebody supporting the protest makes a speech about being careful with the language, and they instantly chant it again anyway) and seeing people insist on sticking to these phrases even knowing the weight behind them, it will make people nervous.

And some of these are at schools, which also includes Jewish students.

FunWithAFryPan posted...

You are the right wing.

If anyone is doing the heavy lifting right now for anti-Semitism, its the genocide denying Zionists like you. You think your rhetoric is going to discourage antisemitism? A new antisemite is born every day theres a genocidal apartheid regime blasting innocent civilians in their homes and on their streets. Israel is every bit as evil as Nazi Germany, the only difference is one of scale.

jesus......

I will withdraw from the conversation at this point.

No, it isn't some conspiracy theory. Hamas uses the phrase in their charter multiple times and we know what they want and what they mean.

If the right-wing was making these same arguments, the left would be absolutely incensed. They take them to task constantly for their use of language. Right-wingers insisting "No, no, we know the KKK used this phrase, but we're not using it for THAT reason, it doesn't mean that when WE say it" and refusing to change it? The left would eat them alive. They would ask why they choose a phrase the KKK loves when they could choose any other phrase, and they wouldn't care about their arguments as to why they did it.

But people don't see that they are now doing the same thing.....

But it is obvious that the discussion isn't actually going anywhere. So I will end it now.

FunWithAFryPan posted...

Please tell me you were kidding.

No, the phrase was used by israel, in fact it originated there.

So you do think this is a fair thing to chant after October 7th ? No, of course not, it would be considered genocidal aggression.

Israel should not say it. Neither should the opposition.

With all this anger, violence, and genocidal intent, we cannot say this on either side without giving a HUGE amount of baggage

NoMeLx22x posted...

This is the reality.

But TC and similar agitators will do everything they can to paint it as a "Hamas slogan"

Can you explain then, why people insist on chanting the phrase that is used this way by Hamas, and not any other slogan in the world? Like ok, sure, that is what it means, but if there is this confusion, why are they insisting on this phrase defiantly?

Murphiroth posted...

So you didn't answer my question, at all.

You said that phrases are more than their origins and can be co-opted. Why does this not apply to the phrase in question? It's been co-opted and become more than its origin it seems.

I dont understand the question. Are you saying they are co-opting the phrase from Hamas?

I honestly would think it is obvious. If you can use any phrase in the world, why are you using the one associated with genocidal terrorist rhetoric instead of any other one?

The co-opting argument seems very....thin.

FunWithAFryPan posted...

LOL

Why is this funny....

Smashingpmkns posted...

It doesn't scare me because I'm not a disingenous fear mongerer

If anything this topic has only made it more freaky to be honest. Like it's hard to call me disingenuous when people keep backing up my points with their arguments and proving how they feel about these issues. I mean how many people said "Hm, that's a good point, maybe we should think of a better phrase"