Lurker > Forceful_Dragon

I loved the part where you didn't give wallz a chance to make an authentic response on his own behalf.

Obellisk posted...

Was it wallz that neighbored me last game and he was scum? and then red vigged me.

Wallz was the godfather neighborizer. MZero was the town Vigil.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/c/c979c231.jpg

And all the other stuff?

Anyways that's what I've got for now. I would have liked an additional data point to consider from red, but lol at red providing useful information when I ask for it.

Obellisk posted...

now make it make sense that wallz and ulti are actually scum together.

I don't see that being possible. It could be neither of them, or it could be one of them, but both doesn't feel possible.

Anyways onto more Wallz posts:

The first half of T2 was mostly him being annoyed that people were "protecting" isquen from the pressure he and ctes were putting down.

Then T2P292 we have:

wallmasterz posted...

I cant remember for sure if I was before death but I think I was, I also mentioned thinking there could be a flavor cop or a role cop because my role name didnt match my benign role.

Another reference to having a scary role name. This is at least with consistent with Kidnapper.

T2P366

wallmasterz posted...

Someone suggested ulti should indicate who he plans to visit tonight. That still seems like a good idea

wallmasterz posted...

My paranoid thought all d1 is ulti is scum bomb and intentionally kept his role explanation vague + unsatisfying in hopes of drawing a town tracker or cop. Probably unlikely, but something is off for sure

Ulti is maybe a scum bomb trying to draw a town scan? Let's town scan him!

>_>

wallmasterz posted...

I dont want to special Corrik.

What has FD done other than spreadsheet talk. Admittedly, he makes nice spreadsheets.

wallmasterz posted...

lets get a counter going. FD, someone.

I really dont like the Corrik voters and prefer the ulti voters but I dont want to lynch ulti

And then he threw out my name twice right at the end :(

That doesn't mean anything about his role, but when he didn't get the special he wanted we got his "meh" ctes vote instead.

I may have started down this path based upon lol renamed role meta, but that's a few things clicking into place now during the re-read.

changmas posted...

I think there was some sort of discussion that made it reasonable for him to say he wasn't a simpson at the time.

The discussion was "did you mean you weren't in the TV show simpsons or did you mean you weren't a member of the Simpsons family" to which he clarified that his character IS from the show, but is not a Simpson.

But that's still a detail that he decided to provide completely unprompted. I didn't notice it my first time through, but now that we know the mafia are called Simpson that feels like a slip.

Then we have this exchange. T2P57

Leafeon13N posted...

I'm not sure at all what ultis logic is. Being seen not murdering someone is usually the opposite of damning. Pretty sure this is fake in some capacity.

T2P59

wallmasterz posted...

100% agree with this. I believe he wants to draw a scan, or possibly other town power, which is why he brought it up then tried to keep what should be an obvious detail ambiguous

So he agrees with red that Ulti seemed to just be trying to draw a target from town power... And then he went on to target him with his supposed town power?

Corrik7 posted...

The problem to me is kidnapper generally removes someone from the night completely. He is saying it was a neighborizer and follower but isn't it just more likely it was a kidnap and thus ulti was unable to move or be targeted. Hence ulti didn't move? My question to ulti would have been if he tried to move but he says he is vanilla now. My next question would have been if wallz knew he couldn't move supposedly anymore before coming here to claim.

The reason this concerns me is because if it's actually a normal kidnap then it doesn't confirm ulti couldn't have gone somewhere if he wanted to like him saying he tracked him nowhere suggests. If he tracked him nowhere, ulti looks to be town. Unlikely he didn't move night 1 if scum.

But if he is lying about details then that is no longer in ultis favor and my question becomes why lie about this detail.

MafiaU just makes it seem more like a scum-themed neighborizer that sometimes has the option to murder:
https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/database/mafia-roles/role/?mafiarole=Kidnapper

Regardless, Ulti apparently freely offered up in the chat that he was actually vanilla without being pressed so the bit about having a Track could simply be something Wallz tacked on after the fact.

T1P57

wallmasterz posted...

If I saw my flavor and role without the alignment next to it I wouldve thought Im scum.

Ultis claim also falls into this kinda miller territory. I dont have a strong feeling about Ulti yet other than knowing I dont want to spend another day 1 hyper focused on Ultis role.

T1P268 !!

wallmasterz posted...

I have never seen a Simpsons ep with my character in it, so I dont know just how miller-ish or not is my flavor. Im not a Simpson.

My role is harmless but has a name that suggests otherwise. I do think my flavor and role both work as foils to a potential flavor or role cop.

Why did wallz feel the need to include this?

T1P290

wallmasterz posted...

Being a literal member of the Springfield mafia.

T1P294

wallmasterz posted...

If theres a town flavor cop they dont know the split right now either, so I fail to see your point

I am Fat Tony, boss of the Springfield mafia. Does being mafia sound like town flavor or mafia flavor

I'll check. but this is the clarified claim T3 P306

wallmasterz posted...

I am Fat Tony, town kidnapper. I am kidnapper in name only, and my role actually works as a one-night neighborizer and tracker. My role pm paints it as Tony kidnapping another player to interrogate them and then letting them go, but following them. As of d2 starting I cannot continue chatting with Ulti, tracking Ulti or neighbor anyone new in future nights. I am essentially vanilla now.

Oh I see Mzero things are happening. I don't oppose that necessarily, but I'd also like to hear thoughts my my expanded wallz theorizing.

Whatever, red probably screwed up his sleeping schedule again and I don't want to wait.

I think what we're overlooking is that Wallz' renamed flavor doesn't really seem to fit what we've seen so far. They've all been rather generally descriptive of the character and not particularly related to the role. Unsuccessful businessman is confirmed. Average Joes, Naive Neighbor and Old Man are claimed. Those 4 are all attached to vanilla sure, but the thing linking them is that they really just generally address the character itself and don't tie into the vanilla-ness.

And then we have "Kidnapper" for Fat Tony? With a role that just happens to closely match what a Scum Kidnapper might do?

I could see scum day 1 thinking "we know the flavor split is Simpsons vs the rest, but we could get someone to claim a flavor they believe is miller-ish because it's a literal mafia member" and then tying themselves to that Fat Tony role (despite actually being a Simpson). And then they learn that town roles are all renamed, but what luck! Fat Tony is an actual criminal so you can just say 'sure he probably kidnaps people, we'll say the renamed role is kidnapper!'.

But wouldn't a more fitting rename for Fat Tony have just been "Mob Boss" or "Mafiaso"? Or something that fits the trend of generally describing the character? It would be our first instance of the renamed role actually describing the role and I for one am not sold.

This goes against the good credit I wanted to give wallz for participating in the Ctes lynch, but what he is claiming is functionally out of sync with what we currently know about renamed roles and is a conceivably logical attempt to have been made by a scum team that was aware of the flavor split but not aware of the renamed roles.

##Vote: Wallz

(P.S. Why does this topic show me having a previous vote down on Death? I never voted Death, but I previously voted Ulti before later unvoting)

Chaeix posted...

in what way, exactly?

His answer affects my willingness to elaborate. There is a possibility being overlooked and since red has already claimed his functional role he should have no problem confirming whether or not he has a renamed role to go with it.

UltimaterializerX posted...

Can we please squash whatever this is? Privately post game if necessary. Seriously, I like playing games with you but youre always mad at me about something and it makes me not want to bother.

You seem to think this is me bringing in previous game baggage. It isn't.

This is me reacting to your play from THIS specific game.

Chaeix posted...

does it actually matter for his alignment or do you just want more info

I think it is relevant, yes.

I don't see how this is hyperfixaction.

We might as well have asked red if his flavor was male or female or some similar question that clearly was not going to ultimately have bearing on the flavor split and his response might as well have been "fuck no".

And then completely without prompting he reveals what he purports to be his actual role??

And I'm wrong for being upset about that? I didn't WANT him to drop his role for absolutely no reason. I just wanted an answer to the other question! He's the one who escalated things for a reason I still don't think has been properly articulated.

I also want him to confirm whether or not he has a renamed role.

Also you (supposedly) revealed your role of Vigilant. But not your renamed role.

So what is the actual role you have that possess the functions of vigilant red? Surely there's no harm in providing that now that you've given the proper role?

Leafeon13N posted...

I dont remember the exact exchanges but i know i give 0 shits about flavor

So then why not reveal the thing you "give 0 shits about"?

Why reveal something ACTUALLY IMPORTANT that we DIDNT EVEN WHAT TO KNOW??

Your explanation STILL doesn't make sense.

changmas posted...

would be funny if FD wasnt talking about himself

Oh that would be hilarious, but alas my streak of only town roles continues.

htaeD posted...

I asked him this too and he said that he didnt tell Ulti about the track

So it's just an overall poor use of the track rather than an actively detrimental one. Swell.

Meanwhile, if both are town I'm sure Ulti is patting himself on the back somewhere for wasting one of our town actions just to confirm his vanilla ass. What a spectacularly inefficient usage of town resources.

Leafeon13N posted...

Also someone said it, people claim just to shut lopen up.

I was definitely in that camp.

I was fairly certain he was town and felt like putting me out of his sights would a) be less infuriating for me and b) help him keep some focus.

No one was asking you to CLAIM YOUR ROLE though. Not a single person. I still don't understand why you did reading it back. Your only two votes were me and Lopen and all we cared was for you to offer the most meaningless piece of information. And when you stubbornly refused to do that we pressed you on it, but still just for that small tidbit, not the entire damn role.

And then to say you "got me" after still makes me question if the vigi claim wasn't fake.

Enchantress posted...

It's just Isquen/Mzero/FD. Right?

Wrong on at least 1 of those 3 <_<

htaeD posted...

FD still has the thing with my vanilla claim going for him.
But I wish he showed up more tho.

Work is busy but i've been around a fair bit after work. I certainly wouldn't consider myself to be among the least active.

Chaeix posted...

if you only have one track and the guy has claimed for the purpose of saving a track you generally do not track that person

others are free to disagree but that's kind of my take. unsure on whether or not it's a scummy claim. certainly not giving it a free pass.

Thanks for putting that into words, that's what was bothering me about about targeting Ulti with the neighborizer.

In the instance that Ulti actually one some kind of involuntary-visitor-who-isn't-confirmed you would potentially see him move to someone completely random and then... what? Confirm that he visited somebody who was not told of the visit anyways?

If ulti is scum with an action then his insane claim was to give a reason for his moving about at night and because he never claimed if it was voluntary of if he could even pick his targets it could have been used to justify walking to just about anyone so long as it wasn't the person who died. It's not something, as scum, that would be used to visit the kill target, so the track accomplishes nothing.

But wallz I did want to clear something up. Did you at any point mention to Ulti in the neighbor chat that it was a neighbor + track combo? Or was he under the impression that it was purely a neighbor action?

You said he volunteered early on that he was actually just a Vanilla, but if he was aware of an impending tracking he wouldn't necessarily have had much choice.

Kirby321 posted...

Let me ask a more productive question. FD, who do you think looks the scummiest so far, knowing that Ctes was scum and Lopen was town?

I would still say Ulti or Red.

I'm also not a big fan of MZero since he took over for igcd, but that night stem from feeling Luke he was mischaracterizing my d1

That wasn't even a simpson meme. Get her!

Kirby I think we all recognize (or SHOULD recognize) that Lea isn't 100% confirmed town.

But by that same token we're not lynching her today so at a point it becomes unproductive to lists the reasons she's not confirmed >_>

Enchantress posted...

large ham....mmmm....large ham....

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/a/a00a05dc.jpg

Doctor Octopus
Venom
Kingpin
Vulture

Enchantress posted...

I think Ben claimed Hans Moleman, Vanilla

Got it, added for the next update.

And colored day 1 votals typically don't reveal much on day 2, but here they are:

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/0/0031a271.png

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/forum/6/69e17f55.png

Still working on colored votals page, but am I missing any claimed info?

UltimaterializerX posted...

I stand by my logic yesterday that Red self resolves.

Because he claimed "vig" and then said "got you!" ?

What part of that is self resolving?

UltimaterializerX posted...

blame FD for that.

Blame yourself or God.

I don't make you lie about your role in ways that doesn't even support your alleged reason for lying.

I'll unvote for now, but it's still possible that you made up some random crap as scum and just happened to luck into a game with renamed town roles that could plausibly account for it.

##Unvote

Finally had some time at a PC instead of just mobile posting, so I took care of those Votal Snapshots for ya'll.

Here are the unofficial votes from post 151, about 8 and a half minutes until End of Day 1.

[5] Corrik - JC, Chang, Isquen, Lea, Ulti
[4] Ulti- Lopen, Death, Sbell, Kirby
[1] Mzero- Ben
[1] Red- FD
[1] Changmas- Ctes
[1] Death- Red
[1] Isquen- Wallz

.

With 5:47 to go JC says "It's not too late to special ctes"
8 seconds later Kirby says "Lea or Ctes. final offer" (likely was posting at the same time and had not read JC's post)
and with 5:23 until EoD Kirby unvotes Ulti and votes Ctes.

[5] Corrik - JC, Chang, Isquen, Lea, Ulti
[3] Ulti- Lopen, Death, Sbell ()
[1] Mzero- Ben
[1] Red- FD
[1] Changmas- Ctes
[1] Death- Red
[1] Isquen- Wallz
[1] Ctes- Kirby ()

.

14 seconds later JC unvotes Corrik and joins Kirby on Ctes. (5:09 until EoD)

[4] Corrik - Chang, Isquen, Lea, Ulti ()
[3] Ulti- Lopen, Death, Sbell
[2] Ctes- Kirby, JC ()
[1] Mzero- Ben
[1] Red- FD
[1] Changmas- Ctes
[1] Death- Red
[1] Isquen- Wallz

.

Ctes returns at this exact moment and unvotes chang to vote Corrik. This post was only 15 seconds after the 2nd vote on him so he was likely already drafting it so as far as he was aware the votes were probably still Corrik 5 and Ulti 4, so confirmed scum ctes was clearly preferring to lynch Corrik in that spot.

[5] Corrik - Chang, Isquen, Lea, Ulti, Ctes ()
[3] Ulti- Lopen, Death, Sbell
[2] Ctes- Kirby, JC
[1] Mzero- Ben
[1] Red- FD
[1] Death- Red
[1] Isquen- Wallz

Removed: Chang ()

.

Few posts go buy and a couple minutes pass. Red unvotes Death and votes Corrik. 3:02 until EoD.

[6] Corrik - Chang, Isquen, Lea, Ulti, Ctes, Red ()
[3] Ulti- Lopen, Death, Sbell
[2] Ctes- Kirby, JC
[1] Mzero- Ben
[1] Red- FD
[1] Isquen- Wallz

Removed: Death ()

.

Chang unvotes Corrik and votes Ctes. 2:54 until EoD.

[5] Corrik - Isquen, Lea, Ulti, Ctes, Red ()
[3] Ulti- Lopen, Death, Sbell
[3] Ctes- Kirby, JC, Chang ()
[1] Mzero- Ben
[1] Red- FD
[1] Isquen- Wallz

.

About a minute later Wallz unvotes Isquen and votes Ctes. 1:46 until EoD.

[5] Corrik - Isquen, Lea, Ulti, Ctes, Red
[4] Ctes- Kirby, JC, Chang, Wallz ()
[3] Ulti- Lopen, Death, Sbell
[1] Mzero- Ben
[1] Red- FD

Removed: Isquen ()

.

At this time Ben posted votals that showed the score at 5/5 (even though it was 5/4) and said "it's tied". Regardless of this innacuracy, Lea unvoted Corrik and voted Ctes at exact EoD, whether tied or -1 it was decisive.

[5] Ctes- Kirby, JC, Chang, Wallz, Lea ()
[4] Corrik - Isquen, Ulti, Ctes, Red ()
[3] Ulti- Lopen, Death, Sbell
[1] Mzero- Ben
[1] Red- FD

And those should be the actual final votals for day 1. Very much down to the wire, though at no point in the final 10 minutes was Ulti being considered. It had seemed like Corrik was the direction over ulti, until Ctes special began.

(edited a couple arrows which were in the wrong spot)

Chaeix posted...

i'm unsure how i feel about this reaction from FD, bit strong of a reaction while suggesting ulti would actually potentially draw a shot

I don't think Ulti would draw a shot with that claim, no. But he's the one who claimed that was his goal. So (A) what a terrible plan with that claim and (B) why wouldn't he just stick to his guns?

MZero posted...

Attacking Ulti over a typical town Ulti fakeclaim

I barely did that on day 1

MZero posted...

Caring way too much about overlap with flavors from the last Simpsons game despite admitting it probably didn't mean anything

That's exactly why red should just answer the question. It doesn't matter so why not? If he can stubbornly refuse, I can stubbornly insist.

MZero posted...

he should know by now that town Ulti pretty much always fakeclaims something that makes no sense and has a bunch of holes in it.

And he should knock that crap off or suffer the predictable consequences.

You are doing a lot of excusing the poor decisions of others.

You are also pointedly ignoring my interaction with death pressing him on renamed roles before they were confirmed. I'm not saying that guarantees I'm town (though I am), but it's an odd thing to leave out since it came up several times.

Kirby321 posted...

I mean if you're gonna answer on behalf of Ulti you might as well point me to the relevant info.

Let me be clear, I think I know the answer, too, but I don't want to make assumptions.

Even if that's his renamed flavor it doesn't BEGIN to explain this:

UltimaterializerX posted...

Also, Im first post claiming under Miller logic.

How does renamed vanilla become 'Miller logic'?

And how is it now being twisted into "I was trying to draw a shot as vanilla" ?!?

If anything pseudo miller claims get left ALIVE by scum because town will eventually get nervous and policy lynch the miller.

Make it make sense

We'll there are two remaining Simpsons on the "prior game" list (Bart and grandpa) but ctes never answered that question and our remaining yes responses are Ulti and 3 ctes killers (you, Chang and Kirby).

Soo... Not much to go on I guess lol

Enchantress posted...

Oh yeah, I forgot to preen about killing a scum one use action before they get to use it, such value. Ok, done being obnoxious now. Unless people want to hear my saga because they think I'm scum. Now, my story begins in nineteen Dickety two. We had to say dickety, because the Kaiser had stolen our word twenty...

If you're claiming to be grandpa then maybe you didn't see the flavor split when ctes died >_>

BYOK, its common courtesy

Bag full of doorknobs. Or gilding the lily?

UltimaterializerX posted...

Youre right. I cant properly describe my role when you literally cant read.

I did overlook that. I guess I stopped reading that post after your dumb mass claim post. Why even correct it today? If you ARE town you could have continued some sort of mysterious 'role that may or may not do anything' to continue to try to draw a shot.

Instead you fully gave up on your Plan A, such as it was?

Your revisionist history is incredible. In Bloodborne mafia I was the only one who was entertaining the possibility that Lopen might not have been scum and wanting to properly work things through. Meanwhile you were all too willing to press along with the game ending mis lynch and unwilling to listen to all sides.

But I'm not here to relitigate prior games.

In THIS game you halfway claimed some garbage based upon "Miller logic" that still doesn't make sense to anyone but you.

In THIS game Lopen was an odd target and he was vocally in favor of your lynch.

Is it a 100% certainly? No. But it's a place to start, so I'm starting.

Cry more, you can't even properly describe your own role and it's not even the first mafia game that's been an issue.

You got a single vote and showed up immediately to howl about it.

Well for now I'll give them both credit for casting pivotal votes and we can move on to finding the next scum.

By honoring a dead man's last wishes

##Vote: Ulti

Chaeix posted...

and FD it's because to the best of my recollection, chang had interactions with ctes earlier in the day (ctes voted him) and to me had a better grasp of the situation/reason to vote than wallz

But when the question is "Did someone knowingly vote a scummate in the final 5 minutes" is that very relevant?

Corrik7 posted...

I thought I saw a lot of swaps from me to ctes at the end.

I'll throw something together either late tonight or tomorrow with the up and down arrows like I did last time and we'll see. But I know some views came from you and others from Ulti. It happened quick enough that most wouldn't have been 100% sure if their contributions to the ctes train would have been enough to make him dead. I think only Leas vote was made with that clear intent.

Chaeix posted...

Lopen being killed is interesting. He was only really gung-ho on Ulti, and I don't think he screamed power. I didn't clue into the him being a vanilla thing someone else mentioned but it makes sense in retrospect.

Yeah I just read Lopens last 15 or so posts. Very solidly anti-Ulti (with a splash of anti-Lea in one post).

With the obvious reasons to believe Lopens was vanilla it would imply he was targeted for the voice he was providing rather than any night action impact scum was fearful of.

Or it could have been redirection? Impossible to speculate on that though so for now we have to assume he was an intended target.

Chaeix posted...

I'm assuming there's still a good chance scum has some kind of EK in addition to Vanillaizer?

Either a delayed reaction EK that we won't see the impact of until day 3 or strongarm being saved to get through protection springs to mind. I think a non-delayed, non-strongarm EK would have been used immediately to reduce the chance of it being foiled by another scum lynch.

Corrik7 posted...

Who wants to do a breakdown of vote changes at the end with the vote at the time and time remaining as votes were made.

Legitimately think most of town is pretty locked up here.

It's not nearly as complicated as it was when I made that breakdown for the flurry of views in the other game. I can put something together tomorrow, but ultimately it was pretty solidly corrik with You in second before those 4 votes summoned the ctes special.

Ctes cast a self preservation vote and then red cast a Corrik vote that would have saved Ctes if Lea didn't swap.

This honestly makes me feel better about red, oddly. I don't see him sticking his neck out so directly to save a scummate.

Chaeix posted...

i think she's town but just making it clear there's no free pass and i will still be evaluating

wallz' vote was also, understandably, meh

pretty solid on kirby and chang being town though

I think if Corrik is anything other than scum Lea is pretty damn clear. Yes the potential for earning town credit is there, but town Corrik can be a real thorn for scum when he gets going so why not take the freebie?

Why Chang more than wallz? As the 3/4 vote their contributions to making the lynch happen were more or less identical. You and Kirby get more credit for your position, but I don't see any difference in value between them.