Lurker > EDumey

Sorry for wall of unedited text. I am phone posting so am not taking the greatest care of formatting and being concise. But sometimes word vomit is just how I operate. :)

Interesting that SBell actually comes to a similar observation about Sultan as I do, but we come to opposite conclusions, lol.

Regarding Sultan, I want to say this in the nicest way possible, because I love him and am not digging him for no reason. But we all know sometimes his reading comprehension is not the best. Sometimes he jumps to faulty conclusions or misunderstanding a post, which then is clarified, and he updates his reads.

We see a CLASSIC example of this with him not realizing Wallz' first post was a joke, voting Wallz, it being clarified for him, and then him understanding and unvoting. This is such classic Sultan behavior that I even made a read early about being cool with Sultan because of it. Sultan definitely town leaning because of this.

Then when he judges the Ursula claim, he makes a comment about it being too on the nose, which shows a clear knowledge of claiming a twin to the main cast as being too much. My read of this post is that Sultan clearly understands the flavor split to make this analysis. So here's the mildly insulting part. My "sus" on Sultan here was does he have the reading comprehension to read the full rules post and understand the IMPLIED but not EXPLICITLY stated scum flavor? If he did, then his post makes absolute sense and isn't a problem. Otherwise maybe a scum Sultan understands that easier because he knows the flavor split himself.

I'm gonna be honest, I don't really want to dwell on this argument because it's insulting of me to make an argument based off my perception of Sultans reading comprehension. I just thought it stood out when he immediately questioned me after the fact for what seemed like coming to a similar conclusion about the flavor meta.

I am leaning town on Sultan, but found the Ursula analysis noteworthy at least.

Regarding Peaf, I challenged his argument about calling Death speculative when he was making it, but was willing to give him a little bit of a pass because I understand he might just be trying to dig up some thread to follow early on and generate conversation. His vote on Sultan felt like he was afraid to commit to Death and wanted to shift off focus. He voted Sultan for questioning his intent on Death, which he saw as faking engagement. This goes totally in the face of generating conversation and I don't like it. This leads me to think that Peaf ISNT just generating conversation, and is instead pushing scum accusations on really poor reasoning that topic one speculative claims are somehow faking engagement and scummy.

Dislike Peaf for this at the moment.

Meow1000 posted...

SBell comes off to me as forcing an argument that isn't there. Buuuut he could also be right.

Here's a fun little fact: Peaf voted Sultan for ??? reasons in a bad post. Your next post in the game was shading Sultan in a bad post.

What is your current opinion of Peaf/Sultan, for the record?

I'd really like SBell to answer this first to see him give a non-tunnel visioned read of the game , but he says he doesn't have the time to reread right now. If you want me to skip waiting for SBell, then I'll answer now.

Obellisk posted...

You said that IGCD has no time to confer with his team before making a Fake Miller Claim. That is the what you said.

I pointed out that an hour is plenty of time.

You went on to state you had no idea what amount of time had passed. THEN you went one to claim that time is irrelevant.

So either you didn't know how much time had passed or it was irrelevant but both cannot be true.

Ergo, you are a liar.

Never claimed that IGCD had "no time". Just that it was bold to do it so early, and in retrospect I didn't think IGCD was the type to deliberate scum plans in the first hour of the game. This is SBell misrepresenting my posts.

I never said I had no idea how much time had passed. I did say that the amount of time was irrelevant to my thought process, which is what was on trial for my motive to post that I thought the claim was clever. I have explained this 8 different ways in this topic alone. SBell is attributing this lie that I said I had no idea how much time passed with no evidence. Because it doesn't exist. To quote, my response was that I was not obsessi g over timestamps, because it was not relevant to my thought process at the time. This is not a statement that says I did t k ow how much time had passed. It is a statement that I didn't care how much time had passed, because I knew it was still the first hour of the day.

htaeD posted...

Yeah I see now my question was not needed
Different question then
Wouldn't scum have time to prepare fakeclaims before the game began?
Day didnt go up immediately after the roles were sent out.

Roles were only sent out like, within a few hours of the day going up right? Like not even a full day, in the middle of a business day. And then again, I was operating under the assumption that the host confirmed info from the intro post was new info to everyone, not assuming that scum had this info to begin with. Hence me thinking it was possibly a quickly decided on fake claim if it was.

htaeD posted...

That said 'too much info' is a useless variable for a miller claim.
Either they are miller or they are not.

This is essentially what I realized when I reread later and said I was cool with IGCD, long before any of this conversation came up.

Obellisk posted...

I'm not making it about time. Dumey is the one using "timestamps" as a defense, which is forcing me to address it as a time issue.

God I hate people sometimes. Your entire argument is the affirmative that I must be lying because I'm misrepresenting my reasoning, with the timestamps as your evidence. I am defending it. This just isn't how arguments work. The only reason we are talking about it so much is because it's YOUR argument that you are claiming I'm lying about.

Obellisk posted...

Knows the game says not to Flavor Meta; Claims to not know the opening post said that Town was all Ex-Lovers.

Huh? Thus is just patently false. I acknowledged the opening post from the very beginning. The whole read was based on the host confirmed love interest thing. I'm willing to believe you're just misremembering this, because this would be a stupid lie to make about my argument if it wasn't a mistake. >_>

Obellisk posted...

Do you think one could make that correction and still claim to be ignorant to what time it is?

At least read my posts man. The time literally is not a factor. I'm done repeating this. I never claimed to be ignorant of the time. My impression was based on the amount of posts in the game and it still being in the opening hour of the game where most people had not checked in. You are making a claim that I am ignorant to the time, when I never made any claim regarding the time at all, ever.

htaeD posted...

Edumey did you think the game just started at an odd time or something?

I'm not sure how many times this needs repeating. I showed up in the first hour of the game. There were less than 10 posts. The first non-joke post in the game was a Miller claim before most of the game had shown up or checked in. There being a 45 minute gap from the start of the game is entirely insignificant to how the scenario played out, and didn't impact my read of the Miller claim at all. The only way IGCD would have had time to deliberate with scum privately is if all of the scum team was among the people that had checked in around that starting time. I didn't think about it this deeply at the time. My perception was literally just, "wow that claim is very bold right out the gate! Does Too Much Info apply here? ....nah the game says not to rely on flavor meta"

foolm0r0n posted...

Yeah. This particular context is all noise so I'm not paying attention to it much. But scum's #1 goal D1 is to rolefish and that's a good way to do it.

btw sbell railing against dumey is beyond fishing, it's role hunting. He wants everyone to force dumey to claim, and then he along with everyone else will remove their vote and go "oopsies I guess we shouldn't lynch him today". And the worst part is it could easily just be typical spineless B8 town play, not scum play.

If you want to continue against dumey then you must be ready to lynch him today regardless of claim. Anything less is pure scum.

But if you're bloodthirsty, lynch the damn miller. It's arguably a net negative town role.

I don't think trying to force claims from people you find scummy is bad Town D1 play. It's certainly not inherently scummy role fishing, as town pressuring for D1 claims is a strategy that many a town has used in the past. I know we just fundamentally disagree on how the game should be played here, but I can't really agree with your logic.

Also lynching uncontested Miller D1 is a pretty bad outcome play from a likelihood of hitting scum. Even if it's a "net negative" town role, you're only increasing the odds of mislynching D1.

I do wish Corrik would respond to my earlier question about dual Miller claims though. Because I think he was just wrong about there being no risk for scum to blind claim Miller.

So I didn't lie, and you just don't agree with my judgement of the first hour of the game where there were less than 10 player posts and the vast majority of the game hadn't checked in yet. Cool.

Obellisk posted...

LOL

I just went back and re-read the start of the day, the first 20ish posts and was smacked in the face with the Post where EDUMEY points out to Blade how many actual posts have been made in the game...

..but preach on about how you didn't look at the clocks.

... you realize this strengthens my argument that I was judging the game based off the amount of activity and posts, and not by timestamps, right?

Don't think it hasn't escaped my notice that I asked you (SBell) to show where the lie you claimed I made is, and you've chosen to instead disengage and take friendly jabs instead.

But since I know the lie doesn't exist and this is just circular at this point, I don't mind trying to change up the active convo a little.

Both the votes on me from IGCD and SBell are fine. There's an interesting dynamic of Sultan expressing suspicion towards me, but then Peaf voting Sultan.

SBell what do you think about Sultan and Peaf right now?

Obellisk posted...

oh you... You know i can't believe that it would be a negative mark on my record.

Also i do not believe i've ever had a day vig shot and if i have i've certainly never had the balls to use it day 1.

Oh I coulda sworn one of the things Ulti got sour about with the tunneling accusations was a day vig incident. But I could very well be remembering that wrong or misattributing it.

Why did Sultan acknowledge the Ursula claim as being too on the nose, and then immediately call me out for saying it was interesting as a bad thing?

Inside the mind of Sultan, did he make that comment with full understanding of the flavor split from the opening post implying but not explicitly saying that the main cast might be scum?

What's your track record on dayvig shots SBell? Cuz I'd love to add a bad shot to your D1 credibility.

I agree that Miller can still exist in role madness. If anything, potentially fancy investigative roles have even more of a need for false positives to balance them out.

Obellisk posted...

correct. you have zero evidence that would help you figure out how he would play as scum. Saying you do is uneducated.

This isn't even worth a response. Players aren't 100% different between their town and scum games. That would make this game way too fucking easy if it were. Of COURSE I can make educated guesses on a player that I've played multiple game with.

Obellisk posted...

that you didn't know how long it had been.

Where did I say I didn't know how long it had been? I said that being in the first hour of the game was synonymous with being the start of the game and acting quickly. Saying he made a claim quickly, is not invalidated by making a post 40 minutes after the game has been posted, where obviously the majority of the game hadn't even checked in at that point.

You are overanalyzing the time stamps.

Obellisk posted...

ITs not a timestamp argument.

Time timestamp just proves Edumey is a liar.

Where is the lie, SBell?

Obellisk posted...

Your "belief" that IGCD would or wouldn't do something as scum after you admitted to never playing with him as scum which means you certainly have never shared a scum chat with him, means literally nothing, you can't use any of that as a basis for anything.

You're right, I can't use multiple games of reference of IGCDs posting style in every single game I've ever played with him, where he is too busy to ever stick around and post back and forth, and only ever comes in to catchup check in, then leave again to do busy life things. Surely I can't extrapolate this to believe that he wouldn't be equally distant and spotty activity on a scum board.

You're free to say you don't agree with my read. If you have other experiences with IGCD being super invested and planning things out on scum boards that you've read, by all means share your experience with me. But don't tell me I can't have a player read based off of my perception of him as a player. That's just ridiculous. Plenty of players make strong player reads off of far less.

Corrik7 posted...

Zero risk to fake claim miller as either alignment.

Isn't there always a risk of fake claiming Miller if there is an actual Miller in the game? I don't know if we've actually had dual Miller claims in recent history to look at, but my thought would be to immediately test one of them.

Obellisk posted...

Game started at 6:00pm

YOU, YOU EDUMEY POSTED AT 6:39pm

you want me to believe you didn't look at a clock before you posted your first post of the game?

So now you know that you started the game FORTY MINUTES AFTER THE HOSTS OPENING POST.

IGCD posted his miller claim 15 minutes after you.

So you know it wasn't instantaneous. You are just caught scum and ya gosh darn fudged up.

Thank you for pointing out that I had literally just shown up to the game and there was less than 10 posts, so me responding to IGCD in real time was synonymous to being there at the start of the game.

I told you the thought process. If you want to ignore that to try and focus on time stamps that I'm telling you I didn't care about then, and still don't care about now, then that's your forced error.

I DO NOT THINK 40 MINUTES MAKES A SINGLE DIFFERENCE IN MY ARGUMENT ABOUT IGCD NOT BEING THE TYPE TO DELIBERATE ON A SCUM BOARD IN THE FIRST HOUR OF A SLOW GAME. Your obsession over the time stamp means literally nothing to my thought process.

htaeD posted...

Dumey in either case I feel like you should know that scum having none love interests on their safelist when thats the flavor split... thats just silly.
No good host would prepare scum that badly.

Having none? That would just be cruel. But what if the safe list was just a list of a bunch of unused characters, and Ctes trusted scum to not pick a dumb non-love interest flavor after the opening post. I'll say it again, assumptions about what kind of safe list scum has did not play into my original comment at all. This is all post-hoc. The point is to explain that my immediate assumption wasn't assuming that scum had perfect info, because hosts have flavor trapped in the past, whether intentional or not.

I was content to leave it at "flavor meta bad" and move on. I'm not the one that brought this into the limelight as a major topic.

Honestly the best case scenario for my post would have been maybe getting a town vibe from someone asking me about what made it clever because they didn't read the intro post, rather than actually making any kind of determination about IGCD. But no one followed up on the conversation other than Blade saying flavor meta bad.

wallmasterz posted...

Dumey why would scum not know the flavor split since they are informed of scums roles and the opening post explained towns roles

The point is would scum have a Miller fake claim ready to go without first deliberating as a team whether it's something they wanted to risk. Being a small game, having someone blind claim Miller and have town potentially 1 for 1 you would be super risky on a scum team, no? Not necessarily something you do off the cuff. So if they didn't know the flavor split until the game actually opened, and then made that decision quickly and committed to it, it would be kinda ballsy! Which is where my later comment about me thinking IGCD is not the type to deliberate on a scum board before making that play holds at least a little actual merit to me, outside of just baseless flavor/role meta.

foolm0r0n posted...

r o l e f i s h i n g

Wait are you saying I'm rolefishing there? Because if so I don't understand.

Or you're answering the question that scum would speculate where town doesn't in the case of rolefishing, but I don't think that's relevant to Peaf and Death's convo.

SBell you're being real aggro and overanalyzing intent. There is a very easy thought process that I followed.

Order of events:
I show up to the topic and see less than 10 posts in topic. I am not obsessively checking time stamps.
I read the rules, and note the flavor split mentioned.
I see IGCDs Miller claim.
I look up the Character to see if it would make sense as a Miller, and see that it is a twin.
"Huh, that claims only works if the scum team is the main cast, which was only implied and not explicitly said in the opening posy. Too much info? I dunno. This was put together last minute and the rules specifically say not to flavor meta that much."
Make a post about it because it's the only actual content post of the game so far.

Later on in the night I reread and realize that it's ultimately a null tell, and that if anything, IGCD looks good for posting it so quick because I don't see him as the type to deliberate on scum boards excessively D1. So simplest answer is that it's likely genuine.

htaeD posted...

Also why would scum be unaware of the flavor split? They have a safelist and presumably at least one member who saw the show.

This is assuming everyone on the safe list is a love interest. This is assuming that given a list of characters on a safe list, scum would recognize the common theme.

Which you're probably right. I think a game where the host confirms town flavor in the first post probably doesn't immediately flavor trap scum by giving them a lost with a lot of non-love interest safe claims. But I know ive seen safe lists before that don't necessarily follow the flavor split and allow scum to make those mistakes. But this is analyzing in retrospect, not at the time that I said it was a clever fake claim.

Obellisk posted...

6:01: Opening Post with information about the entire Town Team

6:54: IGCD first post Miller Claim

Edumey is scum.

Brother how many people were around in that time frame, and how active is IGCD normally? I don't think I've ever played with IGCD as scum before, so maybe he's super active on scum boards, but he definitely seems like the type of player that pops in, posts his stuff, and then leaves.

To be clear, my very first post acknowledged that flavor meta was dumb actively discouraged. This read isn't something I was ever going to pick as a hill to die one. I'm just explaining why it perked my interest at first. It's not my fault no one else wanted to engage with it until now.

Obellisk posted...

IGCD first post'd a miller claim.

This is how you claim Miller as Town and how you fake it as Scum.

What are you even talking about?

If it were a fake claim from scum, they may not know the flavor split. They may not have known that all of town were love interests. For scum to pick a fake claim off their safe list, post it right away, AND have it match the host-given info would either be lucky or quick thinking.

No insult to IGCD, but I don't think this is something he would have had time to discuss eith a scum board before doing so, which means he likely did it by himself. The more likely option is simply that he's telling the truth, rather than getting lucky that his fake claim fit the host confirmed town flavor.

Peaf, even if Death is being speculative (I'm not sure I agree with that characterization), what is inherently scummy about that? Like what makes scum speculate early D1 where Town doesn't?

I mean yeah, the "too much info" thing is what initially grabbed me.

I read the rules that stated everyone is lovers of the main cast. Then saw IGCD make a claim that makes a hell of a lot of sense if the scum team is the main cast of the show. I looked up Ursula to see if this was just a straight up first post catch since the main cast being scun was only IMPLIED by the rules but not confirmed, but then found that she WAS a love interest for at least one episode, fitting the rules that Ctes laid out. Hence saying it would be a very clever fake claim, choosing a twin when you know your scum team is the Friends.

But you'll also notice that I later said in retrospect I feel good about IGCD. Because it being a real Miller claim makes sense, so there is no "too much info", and for IGCD to post it so quickly would be a pretty bold plan for scum to do so quickly after the rules were posted telling us the town flavors. I guess I'm assuming here that the scum team didn't have access to the rules post before the game was posted, if it was just duplicated on discord or something, but that's where the read comes from.

Also F you for thinking me trying to engage with people in the first page when we had barely any posts is me "running" from my initial post. When have I ever run from a chance to argue about myself as either alignment? Y'all know me better than that! No one asked about why I thought it was clever before, so I didn't feel the need to force an argument about Miller role meta. I've literally gotten criticized before as town for focusing too much on Miller conversation early in the day. What do you want from me!?!?

PeaceFrog posted...

Wishy washy null statement, huh

More an observation of the short exchange between Wallz and Blade. Wallz pointed out that Blade was playing serious last game, and more jovial this game, and I liked Blade's response. Genuine can be neutral now, but turn into positive later when I have more contextual data.

First question for the witness:

... How you doin'?

I'm cool with Sultan.
On retrospect I think I'm cool with IGCD.
I think Ben was cooking with Peaf's intro post.
I'm neutral with Blade, but think him jumping at the first possible content post of mine, and then later pointing out (passive aggressively?) the difference in activity in this game and a busy previous game seems really consistent. Blade seems genuine but could want more activity as either alignment, lol.

Can we call Peaf's girlfriend to the stand to testify on her knowledge of Friends? I am holding flavor court to see if Peaf has a likeable character or not.

Obellisk posted...

Love the classics like Frasier, Cheers and Family Ties, however I think my all time might be Parks and Rec or 30Rock.

I had to look up my flavor. I know Friends, I was 12 when it premiered so I grew up with it but i never really watched it.

No one has mentioned my favorite yet, and clearly I have the best taste that supercedes every one else's opinions, so you're all fired.

It's Malcolm in the Middle btw

Sultan, I think Wallz first post WAS a joke. It was a Friends reference.

The conversation between Wallz and Blade I don't know because I don't have the context of previous game.

i'm sorry about the current state of your pots.

PunishedBen posted...

Community lol. If that counts as a sitcom

Decent choice.

PunishedBen posted...

Most traditional sitcom........ The King of Queens

I have some fond nostalgia of watching this as a kid, but I fear it would not hold up at all if I rewatched in now compared to much better other shows. (IMO)

IfGodCouldDie posted...

IASIP is the best sitcom of all time.

Not for all seasons. Probably has some of the highest peaks, but I wouldn't call it the best of all time. Good choice though.

What is your favorite sitcom Ben? I am judging your answer.

Meow1000 posted...

Why would you need a starting post to know that role meta is a bad idea 14 posts into the game

because the conversation has to start somewhere, and we all know that miller can be a scum gambit.

also you can't count the host posts as posts of the game, i'd say i made that post 10 posts into the game!

IfGodCouldDie posted...

Ursula Town Miller

That us all.

I want to say this is a clever miller fake claim, but the starting post advising that role meta isn't worth our time halts me.

Don't worry Wallz, I'll be there for you.

I'll do a small game. Feel free to cut if the game gets more interest and you want to keep it small.

TheSultanOfSlam posted...

I'd also like to apologize for my little blow up I had. I had some irl stuff going on.

I love you and hope you didn't genuinely think I was being too unfair to you! Sometimes I try to match energy and strike back a little harder than I really mean to.

I'm happy that I correctly read Peaf's end of day motivation. And TECHNICALLY my "date him and see if he loses trust in me" played out, though not quite how I thought it would. :thinking:

I also think I did a good job of reading and defending Ulti earlier in the game, attributing his actions as having fun with the format more than scummy intent. Too bad I couldn't keep that perspective at the very end, there was just too much that I couldn't make excuses for.

Lopen posted...

I think if I live we probably get Sultan but I feel like FD wins anyway. I had NO feel he was ever scum. Super strong bus

I think there's a chance FD dies as the lone scum just as a policy lynch. He's an obvious night kill at some point because there are stronger Mislynch candidates. IMO. Game was still winnable if we had just caught Sultan at some point during those last couple of nights.

Isquen posted...

So yeah sorry for leaning that hard into it. I was getting somewhere yesterday but too little too late.

I forgive you. I felt a little bad going back hard at you some times. So, sorry if I escalated it.

Lopen posted...

Anyway what I learned with this game is I'm never letting myself die again-- despite all the talk of how I throw games late it's obvious when I'm dead late game towns have leadership issues and just kinda mull about so may as well just try.

To be fair I told you not to trade for me because I wouldn't be able to solve better than you. :P

UltimaterializerX posted...

Town correctly reading and dating each other is never a throw.

It is when you effectively tie town's hands behind its back. I don't only blame you for this. I think town vetoing scum lynches is worse. But there was genuinely no way to really lynch Sultan on 7 there unless we did a Triple Kill. Which maybe I should have been more amenable to. I'll take a share of the blame on that for not really thinking through the scenario more there.