Lurker > Greyfeld

red sox 777 posted...
Well, they shouldn't be able to get abortions. The remedy to this unfairness in the law is not to make two wrongs in the place of one, so that men and women are equalled wronged.

I don't have discussions in fantasy scenarios. Women can get abortions. This is an unalterable fact. If you're going to continue making arguments based on fantasy, then I'm no longer responding to your posts.

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SmartMuffin posted...
I've got a question for you guys.

When you see a pregnant mother, do you ask her how the baby is doing, or do you ask her how the small collection of cells inside of her is doing?

Smuffin, go away. Nobody called you here.

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red sox 777 posted...
Like I said, the man would have to sign the waiver before the Nth term. It's not something he could just do at the last second. I'm not a politician, so I'm not going to pretend to have the perfect answer to avoid loopholes. But I would think that a logical and open-minded person would admit that the framework has merit, even if the specifics aren't exactly hammered out.

I would agree but it would have to be before they have sex. There would be definite consideration in that case: I agree to have sex if you agree not to hold me liable for child support. After that, he has to pay her in some way (and have her agree to the payment) to get out of it.

Women can wait until weeks after becoming pregnant to choose. Forcing men to make that choice in the heat of passion with a total stranger is ridiculous.

Pull out a sheet of paper, waiving your responsibility to child support in the case of pregnancy, and see how fast you get thrown out of her house.

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Forceful_Dragon posted...
From: ExThaNemesis | #100
The problem is that my proposed legislation isn't based on religion while yours is entirely.
Just a complete lack of morals, sure.

Unless you can look at this:


And say it deserves to die just because it has a poor mom and dad.

And that's just 16 weeks. Some states allow abortions for up to 24 weeks. That would look like this:



It's still just a cluster of cells?

Not that my opinion really matters here, but I think the child's life starts when brain is fully formed at around 12 weeks. That's when the fetus starts reacting to its environment and various stimuli.

IMHO, 12 weeks is more than enough time to decide if you want to keep the child or not.

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red sox 777 posted...
If it were up to me, the woman wouldn't have the right to get an abortion either.

Although even if she does, he still shouldn't be able to walk away. The situation went like this:

1. Man: I want a baby. I agree to take care of the baby.
2. Woman: I agree. I also agree to take care of the baby.

Some time passes.

3. Man: I don't want a baby anymore.
4. Woman: I still want a baby.

Well, you already agreed, so you're stuck. If you agree to do something, you've got to do it. If you don't think you agreed to have a baby by having sex, that's your fault. By the same logic, the woman shouldn't be able to get an abortion either. But just because the law unfairly allows her to change her mind doesn't mean we should let the man do so too. 2 wrongs don't make a right.

It's different if the woman is trying to abort and the man wants the baby. He never agreed to abort his child.

Like I said, the man would have to sign the waiver before the Nth term. It's not something he could just do at the last second. I'm not a politician, so I'm not going to pretend to have the perfect answer to avoid loopholes. But I would think that a logical and open-minded person would admit that the framework has merit, even if the specifics aren't exactly hammered out.

Unless you think that a woman should have more rights than a man should, in which case this conversation is pretty much over.

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Forceful_Dragon posted...
From: OmarsComin | #087
under the system I'm proposing, she'd be free to get an abortion in both those cases. she just couldn't expect monetary support for the next 18 years if she decided to have the baby against his wishes. I'm sure in situations of rape that's not gonna be a problem.


In this system guys choose to never wear condoms because all he has to do is say "her having the baby is against my wishes" and never pay a dime.

And then the woman says "No condom, no sex," and kicks his bum ass out of her bedroom.

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OmarsComin posted...
So, the woman agreed to have sex, got pregnant, and has the right to have an abortion.

And the man has the right to shut up and pay money for a kid he doesn't want to have anything to do with?

I think red sox is advocating that the woman not have the right to get an abortion

I don't have discussions involving peoples' fantasies. If this is the case, then I won't be bothering arguing against his points any further, because my argument hinges on current law, not somebody's distorted views of reality.

--
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red sox 777 posted...
And in the "real" world, half of the fetus' chromosomes belong to the male.

The woman can have all the rights she wants regarding the pregnancy, as long as the male has the right to say, "I don't want anything to do with this."

You can't sit there and blame the male for getting the girl pregnant, then in the same breath say that he doesn't have any rights. That's just idiotic and sexist.

He had rights that he gave up when he agreed to have sex.

So, the woman agreed to have sex, got pregnant, and has the right to have an abortion.

And the man has the right to shut up and pay money for a kid he doesn't want to have anything to do with?

--
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Forceful_Dragon posted...
From: Greyfeld | #068
Since we live in an imperfect world, we have to talk about the issues as they are, not as we wish them to be.
And in the "Real" world the baby grows inside of the girl, not that guy. And abortions (unfortunately) are legal. Pretty sure the fact that it's not growing inside of him waives the guys right to decide what happens to the baby.

And in the "real" world, half of the fetus' chromosomes belong to the male.

The woman can have all the rights she wants regarding the pregnancy, as long as the male has the right to say, "I don't want anything to do with this."

You can't sit there and blame the male for getting the girl pregnant, then in the same breath say that he doesn't have any rights. That's just idiotic and sexist.

--
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ExThaNemesis posted...
FD approaches this situation with religious lenses. Also known as not being steeped in reality.

Not only should abortion be legal, but it should be MANDATORY for poor people/families that don't have the finances to properly care for a child.

Not to stir the pot here, but that's what adoption is for, isn't it?

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BlackMageJawa - "I'm on a Goomba."

Groundhog's Day?

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BlackMageJawa - "I'm on a Goomba."

Forceful_Dragon posted...
From: Greyfeld | #052
This is an exceptional form of special pleading. Both men and women have this knowledge. However, women have the choice of aborting the pregnancy or not. Men don't have any choice regarding the pregnancy.

You can't put all the blame on the male and say it's fair. The girl spread her legs under the same burden of knowledge.
I address this in post 50.

Yes, you did. But your "fix" involves a perfect world where people seriously consider their consequences before doing anything.

Since we live in an imperfect world, we have to talk about the issues as they are, not as we wish them to be.

--
PSN - Aevio
BlackMageJawa - "I'm on a Goomba."

Forceful_Dragon posted...
In which case they should not have sex.


If a guy doesn't want to have to do his part to financially raise a child he shouldn't have sex.
If a girl doesn't want to do her part to force a child out of her she shouldn't have sex.

Opposite sides of the same coin. You don't need to include men in the right to chose, just realize that they are both choosing to be responsible for something (albeit different things) when they engage in consensual sex.

*Shrugs* I'm not going to say your viewpoint is right or wrong. It's just your opinion. All I'm saying is that, despite my feelings on the matter, it's not my right to impose my beliefs on another person who happens to be in said situation.

Anyway, my statement wasn't made to start a debate on whether abortion is right or wrong, but to illustrate where I'm coming from in making my suggestion, concerning men's rights and pregnancy.

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Forceful_Dragon posted...
From: Greyfeld | #034
I didn't say that it would be as easy as signing a slip of paper. You'd have to go through the right channels, etc etc, and only get it under select circumstances. But having that option is better than being stuck with child support for a child you don't want, because the woman refuses to abort.
Aborting shouldn't even be an option imho...

But given that's it is legal, any idiot with a working penis knows that there is a chance (however small) he can get someone pregnant if he has sex with her.

This is an exceptional form of special pleading. Both men and women have this knowledge. However, women have the choice of aborting the pregnancy or not. Men don't have any choice regarding the pregnancy.

You can't put all the blame on the male and say it's fair. The girl spread her legs under the same burden of knowledge.

--
PSN - Aevio
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For the record, I don't agree with abortion. I think there are enough preventative measures and adoption channels in place that there's just no reason to abort aside from "I don't want to go through the act of giving birth," which I don't really find a very compelling argument.

But, I also don't feel it's my job to tell a woman what she can or can't do with her own body. Being a male, I'm not going to pretend I know what it's like to have your own body go through that sort of drastic change.

That said, if women have the right to choose, men should as well. Period.

--
PSN - Aevio
BlackMageJawa - "I'm on a Goomba."

Forceful_Dragon posted...
From: Greyfeld | #018
As far as mens' rights regarding pregnancy, it would be fine to not have any say over whether a woman gets an abortion or not, as long as men could sign some sort of legal waiver before the Nth term to free themselves of paying child support, if they so choose.
In which case you presuppose that abortion is going to happen and babies should only be kept if the woman chooses to keep them? I can't say I like or agree with that.


Tbh when you decide to stick it in you're making a choice to deal with the consequences. So is she mind you (provided it's consensual) but to say you can just "waive" off child support is ridiculous.

I didn't say that it would be as easy as signing a slip of paper. You'd have to go through the right channels, etc etc, and only get it under select circumstances. But having that option is better than being stuck with child support for a child you don't want, because the woman refuses to abort.

--
PSN - Aevio
BlackMageJawa - "I'm on a Goomba."

As far as mens' rights regarding pregnancy, it would be fine to not have any say over whether a woman gets an abortion or not, as long as men could sign some sort of legal waiver before the Nth term to free themselves of paying child support, if they so choose.

--
PSN - Aevio
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OmarsComin posted...
Many feminists are pro-abortion because it strengthens their hand, with rights and choices. Feminist rhetoric has saturated the issue, which is why women have complete control over the abortion decision and men have none, even though the man will be expected to pay child support for the next 18 years if she has the baby.

That same portion of feminists are anti-prostitution and anti-porn because those things are worse for them. Prostitution and porn don't help women, and do help men. It lowers the value/price of the woman parts. So in a world without porn or prostitution, men would just have to pay a much higher price to gain access. Deal with worse female behavior, or whatever. Porn/prostitution serves as an alternative. If that girl you met is too much of a self-absorbed psycho, you can walk and just look at porn instead.

I don't think it has so much to do with power as with perception. A woman being able to abort her pregnancy if she so chooses is seen as empowering and taking control over one's own body. On the other hand, prostitution is seen as degrading oneself for the pleasure of the opposite gender.

Despite the fact that both have to do with a woman's right to choose, the latter gets negative lighting, because the assumption is that the poor woman is being taken advantage of, and being abused, and only making the best of a bad situation. Which may or may not be true, but as I said, it's the perception that's the issue here, not the reality.

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Robin gets an automatic pass, because Barney ripping on canada is gold.

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Lily is hilarious, but she's a horrible wife. She's selfish and constantly takes her husband for granted.

As far as Ted goes, I still hold out hope for him. The writers are just killing him. He's coming away from "intelligent, but hopelessly romantic" and turning into "doofus, and hopeless."

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BlackMageJawa - "I'm on a Goomba."

lol this is seriously like some kind of nerdrage soap opera.

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lol Smuffin topic

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BlackMageJawa - "I'm on a Goomba."

If this is true, and there's a decent online scene, this will be a day 1 purchase for me.

I miss me some Talim anyway. She was my favorite character in SC2.

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BlackMageJawa - "I'm on a Goomba."

I would have also mentioned Karate Kid, but only the first two are any good.

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BlackMageJawa - "I'm on a Goomba."

Somebody hasn't see Back to the Future, or The Mighty Ducks.

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BlackMageJawa - "I'm on a Goomba."

lol i won't feel good about it until after the match. I keep thinking about switching to Gordon, afraid that maybe my love of Wright is clouding my judgement. Afterall, I've seen plenty of times when B8 has overestimated an entrant's chances. But it's only a 1-point match anyway, so I may as well go with my first choice.

--
PSN - Aevio
BlackMageJawa - "I'm on a Goomba."

didn't they reference that movie in an episode of HIMYM?

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BlackMageJawa - "I'm on a Goomba."