YGO Master Duel Mafia Topic 7 - Zero Days since the last Microtransaction

HanOfTheNekos posted...

Incoming Man of La Mancha Mafia

There are no scum and everyone is a tree stump

now we're talking

ctesjbuvf posted...

Han might have mislynched me but he also basically knew what the scum team was if I flipped town which was part of the reason I was lynched which is also why he was killed with a cop claim. To say he had a bad game is just bs.

Again

Identifying the scum team does not matter if you do it only in dead town chat and do not actively push that team when you're alive.

If left alive perhaps he stays on that team. Perhaps he chokes away identifying Kirby when he's scanned town by cop or Chang when he plays better. It's also possible he has the scum successfully navigate town into other lynches because Han continues to play passively and gets just enough doubt to lynch town one more time. It is meaningless speculation because we can only judge a player's game by what they achieve or attempt to achieve when they're alive.

No one should ever say that they had a good game if their actions in game were to push 2 straight town lynches (first being the doctor-- always smarter to jump onto a claimed vanilla unless you're damn sure the vanilla is town or the unclaimed is scum) and put the game into lylo state. That's just delusion. Mentioning maybe lynching Chang as "spice" means jack because he made no attempt to actually go for it.

And it's not just a Han thing. It's a b8 in general thing. That's why people who get killed early regularly unequivocally think they're better at the game than they are (it's a nasty cycle because you tend to get killed early more reliably the better you are at the game so you get this feedback loop with a bunch of delusional players who are above average at the game circle jerking about how bad the town is early), and why dead town chat is generally really annoying to read as either alignment.

(And for the record Han is NOT the main person I'm thinking who does this-- Crescent is the absolute worst about this and probably what triggered this rant more than Han-- but that doesnt mean he doesnt have games like this one where he somehow thinks he played well despite achieving nothing to further town's goals while alive)

I remember when I always criticized Lopen for being a Dead Town Chat hero and acting like he was better than everyone. How the tables have turned.

Corrik7 posted...

I remember when I always criticized Lopen for being a Dead Town Chat hero and acting like he was better than everyone. How the tables have turned.

This is fake. I haven't played much since Discord became a thing. Mostly been scum too.

Lopen posted...

This is fake. I haven't played much since Discord became a thing. Mostly been scum too.

I remember when I always criticized Lopen for being an observer hero and acting like he was better than everyone. How the tables have turned.

That I accept

Thing is I pretty much did it as uninformed observer so I didn't have alignment cheat sheets in front of me.

Doing it in dead chat is much much worse tbh.

(Han always calling me out for doing that is probably the other thing that triggered this rant because he is being an observer hero but also saying town
didn't deserve to win and being bitter about town winning which I never did)

Lopen posted...

That I accept

Thing is I pretty much did it as uninformed observer so I didn't have alignment cheat sheets in front of me.

Doing it in dead chat is much much worse tbh.

You also didn't have anyone who could vouch anything for your "reads" that you assured us you got after the game when all alignments were revealed. So... hmmm

Town deserved to win. Scum had it right there to easily win and didn't do what they needed to do. Very good web of busses. But, no real fire or drive.

Corrik7 posted...

You also didn't have anyone who could vouch anything for your "reads" that you assured us you got after the game when all alignments were revealed. So... hmmm

I mean sometimes I had PMs with the host. But I never actually argued that because whether you believe me or not is a bunch of who cares. I don't actually need anyone's validation-- the more people think I'm bad at mafia the longer I live and the more games I win so I'm okay with the circle jerk early dead crew spreading the rhetoric that I'm terrible at the game.

Lopen posted...

I mean sometimes I had PMs with the host. But I never actually argued that because whether you believe me or not is a bunch of who cares. I don't actually need anyone's validation-- the more people think I'm bad at mafia the longer I live and the more games I win so I'm okay with the circle jerk early dead crew spreading the rhetoric that I'm terrible at the game.

I still believe the best scum strategy is leaving you alive til the end of time as any role lol.

You have a big flaw in mafia, but you refuse to listen to anyone when they tell you what it is to notice it.

That said, I can never leave you alive as scum now because it's something that I would do haha.

People say I overly tunnel into players based on sketchy logic holes and ignoring people who point out those holes

I think if you say I do that you are looking at the game with confirmation bias lens and ignoring the times I jump around. It IS a weakness of mine but it's overblown too.

I will also note it's a content generating tactic. You all can and probably did claim I played poorly by tunneling BCT second from last day but I feel like it basically scum confirmed Kirby doing that and while you won't believe me when I claim I wasn't going to mortally lock on BCT if he didn't try harder, or that I would have just autopiloted Kirby->Sultan and lost us the game if my trick didn't work, but in Lylo you have to be absolutely sure so you can't be any more sure that that plays out Kirby -> Sultan than you can be sure Han successfully continues to correctly identify the scum team through 4 more lynches.

If you want my opinion of what my biggest weakness as a player is it's being unable to distinguish bad play from scum play.

Unfortunately despite knowing that's a huge hole in my game I don't really know how to correct it. Like I'm slowly working at it trying to digest MOTIVATIONS but still easier said than done.

I would say your weakness is you can't really look at people in a vacuum. You have to base every last read off whatever read you are tunneling to make the game fit perfectly, and if someone doesn't mesh well, you tend to wave it away because it just has to because this is how it all has to fit perfectly.

Many times you say this person has to be scum because this person is also and then you get to what I call your "tinfoil conspiracy theorying" level to make it all perfectly fit. Lol.

And bad play vs scum play is learning to read the player instead of learning to read what you feel is optimal play. Everyone has a wheelhouse of range. The better players have massive ranges and unpredictability. The weaker players can almost be pigeonholed in their tendencies and play.

Read the player more and not what you think the good play is.

I have left a doctor alive the entire game as scum before that was outted. For no other reason than to toy with them lol and frustrate them to the point of being a nonentity. You gotta know what you can do and expect from everyone to read them properly.

I actually agree with you at some level

I think where you and others underestimate me is that that conspiracy theory can shift around and that actually does make me a bit more flexible than you think. I'm always re-evaluating the pieces in my theories and eventually they make enough sense that it ends up being right.

For instance in this game I found Poppy and Kirby protecting BCT which means Poppy and Kirby and BCT fit into place as a scum team doing a lot of theatre day 1.

But then I re-evaluated and saw a scenario where just Poppy and Kirby were doing theatre to pocket BCT as being likely (which was correct-- despite playing around with the same pieces in the theory)

I also think you misread my outward conviction in a lynch as my actual scum read 100% when a lot of time I'm doing it because pressure creates content.

For as much as you guys say "oh Han did so well" I would argue Ulti's theory on what Han does is part of why all our lynch trains went with hardly any votes until 2 hours before before deadline speaks to that criticism potentially being at least somewhat correct.

Like if you or Chris are town and helping harness me we create a lot of chaos and can generally shake out scum. It has happened many times before. Han in my games being town with him actively works against trying to do that unless it makes his theory on the game fit-- which creates situations where a good lynch isn't solved until just before deadline because he's too afraid of being wrong on a scum unless there is a player who can generate that pressure for him (and isn't actively fighting against him). The easy solution is to just blame me for rattling him but I don't think that's truly evaluating what's happening correctly-- it's probably no coincidence that the only games I remember Han actually carrying for town are ones where he had power roles and that as vanilla I tend to remember him being right about a lot but the game being lost anyway.

HanOfTheNekos posted...

Incoming Man of La Mancha Mafia

To fight the unbeatable foe

Lopen posted...

But then I re-evaluated and saw a scenario where just Poppy and Kirby were doing theatre to pocket BCT as being likely (which was correct-- despite playing around with the same pieces in the theory)

I do think this would be my biggest piece of advice for bct, if he's still reading this. At every point that he complained about someone finding him scummy, he latched on to the fact that other players said he was obvtown but he didn't seem to pay attention to the names of people calling him town, or why they did so. And they tended to be scum themselves, getting in his good side.

In general, though, scum did a decent job of pocketing the right people on days 1 and 2 so that they could rest on their laurels later.

Yeah, you should evaluate as you go. You just have this amazing knack for taking one wrong read and then extrapolating it to a completely wrong read across the board. I don't know if you ever find a scum this game if not for scum scans that basically others wanted to lynch and not yourself initially. You hate uncountered power roles immensely lol

I basically always try to lynch Poppy Day 3 if he doesn't flip poisoned. I also never lynch hb ever if Sultan isn't day cop.

You can believe me or not due to not immediately discarding Poppy when he questioned why hb is alive unblocked with scan, but Poppy and Kirby are always on my radar after day 2. I also no longer white knight Ben as hard because his motivations become a lot less townish if he's participating in a town/town wagon. I played super chill day 3 on trying to build cases on more people because I knew the chances of me being night killed night 3 was 0.

I think if I have total control of every lynch after day 3 it probably goes Poppy/Kirby -> Kirby/Poppy -> Ben -> Sultan/Chang. Roughly the same path this game took just different first stop. But Ben also plays very differently if not scanned so I can't be sure of that-- just know that in town/town day 1 Ben is not townish to me if he's going hard on SBell being town and the alternative is town. I will also say I probably lynch Kirby not hb if I have total control of the lynch day 2, just because while I do think a lot of pressure on the cop claiming stupidly is healthy, in terms of risk/reward the play isn't there and you can let it play out a bit first.

Like it's easy to say that we have no chance without cop but I think why hb was able to hit two scum in a row was precisely BECAUSE we had a chance without cop, not because he was going super intuition "where did that come from" scanning. That's not to belittle what hb did-- not at all, it's just to put to rest the idea that town was a bunch of clueless idiots without cop scans.

On that note

With 2 town mislynches to draw from and 2 night killed town it actually isn't that hard to be close to right the scumteam. You ask literally anyone in the game n2 and I would be surprised if they got less than 2 scum. Most probably get 3 or more.

Actual good mafia play, not just consolation prize good mafia play, is not starting the game with 2 town mislynches so you actually have some breathing room to be wrong once later.