Should the US cut off Iron Dome funding to pressure an end to Israel's Genocide?

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Current Events » Should the US cut off Iron Dome funding to pressure an end to Israel's Genocide?
An honest question, it came up a month or so back in a different topic and I've been unsure where to fall on this ever since. Obviously civilian deaths should be prevented at all costs, but at the same time giving Israel a shield allows them to act more offensively than if they did not have said shield.

I'm honestly curious to see what people think on this issue.
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Cut off ALL their funding, not a penny to this bloodthirsty regime.
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Can they not pay for the dome themselves?
Cheater87 posted...
Cut off ALL their funding, not a penny to this bloodthirsty regime.

This. Israel can bloody well pay for the Iron Dome themselves.
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At the very least, I would hope that Israel would actually pay for the missiles/interceptors with their own money as Israel isn't a poor country. In practice though, a lot of them are bought with U.S. military aid, cofunding, or agreements.
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Since it's allegedly America first and they refuse to fund Ukraine or even inexpensive programs that save kids lives, absolutely this shit should be paid for by Israel at a minimum. If we are allowed to leave MAGA logic for a bit, things should go well beyond cutting funding.
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Of course we should. But I wish this question was debated and settled 18 months ago, not now.
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Half expected him to cut it to finance the American dome by now.
Guess he really want that Trump Plaza in Gaza.
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Cheater87 posted...
Cut off ALL their funding, not a penny to this bloodthirsty regime.
THIS!!!!!!

Giving a single penny of funding to a country that is actively causing a genocide is still FUNDING A GENOCIDE!
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punishing civilians for the crimes of a government looks bad and wont work. and because of how the Israeli government works it wouldn't just be punishment for the jewish population, they'd start carpet bombing 'dangerous elements' around them to build up a buffer zone.

plus you'd quickly see several european countries pick up the slack. or hell china or russia.
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monkmith posted...
punishing civilians for the crimes of a government looks bad and wont work

I'll be sure to tell that to Israel.
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Not going to happen because Israel is a money laundering operation for defense contractors.
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Aren't we already punishing civilians for the crime of their government by funding Irsael's genocide against Palestine?

Lonestar2000 posted...
Not going to happen because Israel is a money laundering operation for defense contractors.

This is true but this topic is more about people's arguments for or against the idea of no longer funding Israel's defensive systems.
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monkmith posted...
punishing civilians for the crimes of a government looks bad and wont work. and because of how the Israeli government works it wouldn't just be punishment for the jewish population, they'd start carpet bombing 'dangerous elements' around them to build up a buffer zone.

plus you'd quickly see several european countries pick up the slack. or hell china or russia.
Several problems.

The most obvious "punishing civilians for the crimes of a government looks bad" huh? You don't say. I'll let you think about the irony of that statement.
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Robin: "Fight anyway!" (pb)
The Israeli government wants to spend their military budget on killing Palestinian civilians rather than protecting Israeli ones.
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hmnut7 posted...
Several problems.

The most obvious "punishing civilians for the crimes of a government looks bad" huh? You don't say. I'll let you think about the irony of that statement.
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god damn do people here like to jump all over one part of a post and ignore the rest of it huh? i guess you're ok with mass carpet bombings of all the non-jewish civilians within missile firing distance then? maybe a bit of defensive nuking to build a buffer zone? i can only assume that since you seem to ignore my second point, does that make you a genocide supporter?
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ai123 posted...
The Israeli government wants to spend their military budget on killing Palestinian civilians rather than protecting Israeli ones.

This was obvious the minute they stopped fully caring about the hostages
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Hickey_Blvd46 posted...
This was obvious the minute they stopped fully caring about the hostages

Stopped? They never cared in the first place.
Re-open board 261.
NoMeLx22x posted...
Of course we should. But I wish this question was debated and settled 18 months ago, not now.
Literally
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sfcalimari posted...
tc wanted Trump to win. Trump has power. Go ask him, not CE. I'm sure he'll be nice to you.
This topic is not about who is in power, it's getting viewpoints on whether cutting off defensive funding to Israel while they are committing a genocide. Obviously it won't happen in Trump's America.

Also one, I have never supported Trump ever, and two, what a totally normal response to this topic.
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It's kind of incredible at this juncture that people think the Iron Dome being funded would make any difference and Israeli civilians being killed would somehow make the Israeli government less genocidal.
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LightSnake posted...
It's kind of incredible at this juncture that people think the Iron Dome being funded would make any difference and Israeli civilians being killed would somehow make the Israeli government less genocidal.
People could be assuming that, by cutting funding to the Iron Dome they would need to fund it themselves which would remove funding / supplies from the offensive capabilities they are using to commit a genocide, I don't think any of the people saying we should cut funding are actively wanting Israeli civilians to die.

I assume you are against it, can you elaborate on it more if so?
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sfcalimari posted...
tc wanted Trump to win. Trump has power. Go ask him, not CE. I'm sure he'll be nice to you.

Are we really at the point where you can't even ask questions anymore? Lmao.
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El_Dustino posted...
People could be assuming that, by cutting funding to the Iron Dome they would need to fund it themselves which would remove funding / supplies from the offensive capabilities they are using to commit a genocide, I don't think any of the people saying we should cut funding are actively wanting Israeli civilians to die.

This is quite literally a child's view of government and military funding that has no idea how budgets work.

They do not lack for resources. Like any country, they have a military budget and a budget for many other things. The cost of restocking the Iron Dome would be comparably negligible, even among military forces.

I assume you are against it, can you elaborate on it more if so?

I said above. We are seeing in real time how ISrael reacts to civilian deaths
Ring the bells that still can ring/Forget your perfect offering/There is a crack in everything/That's how the light gets in."- RIP, Leonard Cohen
If the cost is negligible then wouldn't stopping the funding have no negative impact on Israeli civilians? In which case why shouldn't we stop funding it if our funding is not making a difference?
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If Israels brief scuffle with Iran not long ago was anything to go by then it isnt even necessary. Lmao.
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Gladius_ posted...
I'm not supporting "defunding the iron dome" and I promise I am not aiming at a "gotcha." But I am curious what your suggestion is to end the Palestinian genocide. (Genuinely interested.)

Unfortunately, it probably wouldn't happen, but: an actual arms embargo from all countries and massive economic global sanctions would be a start. At worst, sending in government peacekeeping forces into Palestine with a promise of Israel picking a fight with them should they attack or harm them. I don't see the point in pretending the Iron Dome makes a difference, but it's become of totemic importance to some people who railed against AOC as a "traitor" for voting to fund it when she's been quite literally one of the most vocal and principled voices for Palestinians in Congress.
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The US should cut off every single cent of aid in any form, including diplomatic cover, and leave the country to rot in the bed it had made for itself.
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Gladius_ posted...
Embargo and sanctions is what I would do. Didn't consider peacekeeping forces but I see why you considered it a last resort. The Israel government would absolutely call whoever did that to be hostile to them and get really upset over it.

It's a good post and I appreciate you indulging my question <3

I think there's a huge difference between them killing aid workers and countries just getting fed up to say "here are peacekeeping soldiers to ensure Palestinian lives are spared" and I don't much care what Likud cries about that.

Ring the bells that still can ring/Forget your perfect offering/There is a crack in everything/That's how the light gets in."- RIP, Leonard Cohen
El_Dustino posted...
If the cost is negligible then wouldn't stopping the funding have no negative impact on Israeli civilians? In which case why shouldn't we stop funding it if our funding is not making a difference?
I am curious on a response to this LightSnake. You suggested that pulling funding would result in more Israeli civilian deaths but then said that restocking the dome would be a negligible expense so it doesn't seem like you believe it would hurt Israeli civilians? Trying to get where your thoughts are.

Honestly maybe my focus on the Iron Dome specifically is too simple. Would you prefer cutting off all military aid to Israel?
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DodogamaRayBrst posted...
Can they not pay for the dome themselves?
No. They have been dependent on our weapons and defense systems for 40+years. Just like the willing Lapdogs we have been to Israel for 40+ years we do everything they say.
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El_Dustino posted...
I am curious on a response to this LightSnake. You suggested that pulling funding would result in more Israeli civilian deaths but then said that restocking the dome would be a negligible expense so it doesn't seem like you believe it would hurt Israeli civilians? Trying to get where your thoughts are.

Honestly maybe my focus on the Iron Dome specifically is too simple. Would you prefer cutting off all military aid to Israel?

I would prefer an arms embargo, and a blockage of offensive weapons. The Iron Dome is also part of a strategic and has become symbolic of an alliance we've made clear we're not ending anytime soon. Israel could fund it themselves, but there's kind of an optics issue of the US telling them "we do not care about protecting your civilians" that is going to make Israel shift away from the US and to its rivals.
Ring the bells that still can ring/Forget your perfect offering/There is a crack in everything/That's how the light gets in."- RIP, Leonard Cohen
LightSnake posted...
I would prefer an arms embargo, and a blockage of offensive weapons. The Iron Dome is also part of a strategic and has become symbolic of an alliance we've made clear we're not ending anytime soon. Israel could fund it themselves, but there's kind of an optics issue of the US telling them "we do not care about protecting your civilians" that is going to make Israel shift away from the US and to its rivals.
Do you believe the optics of supporting an ally committing a genocide outweigh the optics of supporting a genocide?
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Read the last sentence again. A complete cutoff is also going to divest the US of any influence or leverage. It's something Israeli hardliners have pushed for already.

This is why it's hard to find an easy solution because they don't want to stop and a measure has to be applied carefully in the sense of "force them, but do so while retaining leverage instead of leaving them free floating"
Ring the bells that still can ring/Forget your perfect offering/There is a crack in everything/That's how the light gets in."- RIP, Leonard Cohen
Voted no. Iron Dome isn't being used to commit the Gazan genocide. The weapons that are should be cut.

The type of warfare that Iron Dome curtails is of the type that would leave Israel to resort to nukes.
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Cheater87 posted...
Cut off ALL their funding, not a penny to this bloodthirsty regime.

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Yes they should stop funding the Iron Dome but not for political pressure.
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LightSnake posted...
A complete cutoff is also going to divest the US of any influence or leverage.

No, a complete cutoff would be the US using its influence and leverage. The point, obviously, would be that the cutoff would be reversed when Israel stopped committing crimes. What you've said here only makes sense of what you describe as a complete cutoff would be irrevocable (and yet something slightly less than a complete cutoff, such as you argued for two posts earlier, wouldn't), which clearly is not the case.

cheat4ever posted...
Iron Dome isn't being used to commit the Gazan genocide.

That's an argument for Israel being allowed to have it. It's not an argument for the US paying for it.
Re-open board 261.
LightSnake posted...
Read the last sentence again. A complete cutoff is also going to divest the US of any influence or leverage. It's something Israeli hardliners have pushed for already.
We have two aircraft carriers parked there.

The fuck are you talking about no leverage?
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Dio posted...
Are we really at the point where you can't even ask questions anymore? Lmao.

Maybe helping Trump win and become a dictator is not the best way to help Gaza.
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divot1338 posted...
We have two aircraft carriers parked there.

The fuck are you talking about no leverage?

the US is not going to threaten Israel militarily, be serious. Any influence is gained via soft power here.
Ring the bells that still can ring/Forget your perfect offering/There is a crack in everything/That's how the light gets in."- RIP, Leonard Cohen
LightSnake posted...
the US is not going to threaten Israel militarily, be serious.

Any influence is gained via soft power here.
No it isnt. Thats why you included the word soft power.
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Should they? Yes.

Will they? Not on countless Palestinian lives.
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Yes, if they were to treat Israel the same way they treat Ukraine.

I think they should ramp up sanctions over time with that being one of the final options. I don't want to see civilians die, but the dome is absolutely a major factor in why they're so brazen with their attacks.
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monkmith posted...
punishing civilians for the crimes of a government looks bad and wont work.

Yeah, largely if, hypothetically we cut off funding today and their stockpile went poof, a non-functional Iron Dome just means there would be thousands of Israeli civilian causalities if suddenly Hamas or whoever suddenly started launching hundreds of missiles at them. It likely wouldn't put any more pressure on Israel or change what Netanyahu is doing.

The government and the IDF are already acting as if they've been at war with the Arab world for half a century (they kind of have) and there already appears to be a heavy amount of propaganda against treating them with any humanity. Allowing hundreds to die just adds to war casualties.
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Should?
Definitely.

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No.
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Current Events » Should the US cut off Iron Dome funding to pressure an end to Israel's Genocide?
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