Why do hardcore gamers hate casuals so much?

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Current Events » Why do hardcore gamers hate casuals so much?
legendary_zell posted...
It's a holdover from old school exclusive "gaming as an identity and refuge" culture. Gaming as these gamers thought of it used to be a maligned but safe space where they could show their skill and devotion without interference from outsiders. But gaming got so popular that countless others joined and they feel they've been made a minority in their own land. That has bred resentment because the new people are being catered to despite not understanding "the rules", they don't exhibit the skillz, their interests and values are often different.

We see the same dynamic for anything that used to be a closed boys club for middle class, socially marginal nerds. PC Building, Anime, Tabletop Gaming, etc.

Hell, people are currently doing it with the MCU and Star Wars, franchises that have basically been "mainstream" since their inception.
I have nothing else to say
kirbymuncher posted...
a certain amount of gatekeeping is good, actually

Even if it is the counterargument would be that no one knows where the line should be drawn between maintaining community standards and being arbitrarily exclusive.

If you can't trust people to be fair-minded then they shouldn't get a say in who is "good enough" to be in the conversation at all.

Not saying I feel this way myself, I'm just looking at it from the other side.
Anyone who doesn't agree is part of the problem.
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On topic, I think "casuals" get a lot of hate because, for better or worse, the casual market dictates what the broader gaming sphere will look like for the foreseeable future.

The Wii was a huge hit with "casuals." This led to a 2-3 year period where Sony, Microsoft, and lots of triple A devs crapped out shitty motion control shovelware and little else.

Casuals glommed onto Clash of Clans and Candy Crush. All of a sudden, nearly identical microtransactions and wait timers are shoved into major game franchises. Repeat for lootboxes.

Hell, if we're talking about the mobile market, we may as well point out that the "casual" market has basically destroyed that entire landscape. It's hard to remember how promising mobile gaming's future looked in the early 2010s. Now it's basically just half cooked ports and shameless whale hunters.

These are all broad strokes, but they speak to the larger problem. A more casual audience is going to be more willing to overlook problems with, and exploitation in, their games, as they simply don't care as much. And many developers, cloying trendchasers that they are, are willing to capitalize on that. This is not a problem with the casual player - it's a problem with the shitty industry.

And the reality is that it infects mainstream franchises, and that pisses off the "hardcore" crowd. Sports games have effectively stagnated and just become vectors to hock slot machine lootboxes year on year. Battle passes got popular with casuals, so every mainstream arena shooter now has one. Diablo and Dungeon Keeper players starved for a new game? Don't worry, they're covered: here's a shitty mobile game clearly built to slowly milk your wallet. Let's strip well-loved post-game features from Pokemon because "kids have cell phones and don't have the attention span for it," per the developer. Dead Space 3 and Resident Evil 5 have to be a generic action games because survival horror isn't popular with the casual crowd. And I guarantee that something like Suicide Squad wouldn't have gotten NEARLY the amount of shit it did (still some, it wasn't good, but I digress) if it didn't feel compelled to drag the poor Arkhamverse down with it.

And while yes, there are lots of games being made, I think it's unfair to just expect the extant player base to not be upset about seeing franchises they live make these turns. Sure, there's alternatives; the gaming sphere is huge. But if, for example, Dark Soulsn4 was announced, full of microtransactions, a Ubisoft HUD, a battle pass, and a story written by Shigeru Miyamoto... I wouldn't just say "yeah just play Hellpoint, it's closer to the Dark Souls you want." Because the player doesn't WANT to play hellpoint. It may be FINE, as an indie Dark Souls knock off, but that player would always be happier with an actual Dark Souls 4, because it's a storied series they're already invested in.

And again: NONE OF THIS IS THE FAULT OF THE CASUAL PLAYER. People like what they like, the way they want to like it, and that's not wrong. All the problems with "casuals" are a case of misplaced blame; the fault lies with publishers/developers, who look at something successful and always learn the wrong lesson from it.
Doesn't take a lot of brains to be a good fighter.
BTW Smash still isn't a fighting game.
Anyone who doesn't agree is part of the problem.
Solid_Sonic posted...
BTW Smash still isn't a fighting game.
Perhaps not

But them's sure as hell fighting WOIDS.
There's a difference between canon and not-stupid.
kirbymuncher posted...
a certain amount of gatekeeping is good, actually

To an extent yes, hence why I didn't agree or disagree. Someone else made a really good post about how casual gaming, in a way, ultimately played a big role why we're seeing a lot of predatory practices in modern gaming, but ultimately it's on the developers and ESPECIALLY the publishers end making the decisions. Like looking at Genshin Impact and coming to the conclusion that the reason the game is successful is because of its gacha system, not because it's a good game that many people enjoy. It really also doesn't help we have a lot of people in executive positions for these companies that don't really understand the gaming market, but are familiar with predatory terms like FOMO, gacha, loot boxes, battle passes, etc.
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This is why I rarely watch any Twitch streamers/YouTubers because they take themselves so fucking seriously.

It's fun to find the rare person who is both a) very good at the game but b) isn't overly serious about it.
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Casuals are kinda to blame for lootboxes,shitty microtransactions and all the other bullshit because they bought into it and the gaming industry thought oh gee, everyone likes what we do so let's keep doing it.

I'm not the hardcore gamer type but also not a casual because while I do game quite a bit, it's not as much as what a hardcore gamer would do or as little as a casual would do.

Guess I'm caught in between the two types of gamers.

Devs need to listen to both types of gamers when it comes to balancing,nerfs,buffs,etc instead of catering to one side or the other.

It's cool that more and more people are getting into gaming but there's also the downside of casuals will continue to support shitty business practices.
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i'd consider myself a casual gamer since I honestly don't play much a week. not into mtx stuff though. I'd assume it's the hardcore types that are willing to pay for MTX to get the edge but maybe im wrong? Like i'd certainly think money whales in any MMO/Gacha game are part of the hardcore crowd.
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Ratchetrockon posted...
i'd consider myself a casual gamer since I honestly don't play much a week. not into mtx stuff though. I'd assume it's the hardcore types that are willing to pay for MTX to get the edge but maybe im wrong? Like i'd certainly think money whales in any MMO/Gacha game are part of the hardcore crowd.
I'm pretty sure most hardcore games don't want ANY mtx in their games
Casuals nearly desroyed Dark Souls by begging for an easy mode
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Ratchetrockon posted...
i'd consider myself a casual gamer since I honestly don't play much a week. not into mtx stuff though. I'd assume it's the hardcore types that are willing to pay for MTX to get the edge but maybe im wrong? Like i'd certainly think money whales in any MMO/Gacha game are part of the hardcore crowd.
Nah, the casuals are the ones willing to pay for a edge/leg up because they don't want to spend the time grinding for whatever they want.
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refmon posted...
Casuals nearly desroyed Dark Souls by begging for an easy mode
How would it have been destroyed?
You could play on normal and not have your experience altered. Does it really matter to you how others play a game?
Carpe petat
Casuals usually have the shittiest opinions on what needs changed in game and its mainly to suit them.

Not to say hardcore gamers don't have shitty opinions too but its mostly casuals that do.

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GeraldDarko posted...
How would it have been destroyed?
You could play on normal and not have your experience altered. Does it really matter to you how others play a game?
The devs would have been forced to alter the game so it's easier for people who refused to get better at it.

There's no need for an easy mode in Dark Souls,people begging for it should either spend time getting good at it or stop bitching and stop playing it.

They want an easy mode, go play minecraft or some shit.
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Mr_Karate_II posted...
The devs would have been forced to alter the game so it's easier for people who refused to get better at it.
in all honesty, an easy mode would probably have been better at preserving the game experience for the people who want a difficult game.

compare to souls-adjacent games that don't have an easy mode like elden ring, AC6, lies of P, etc. which launched with difficult bosses but received nerfs in patches. maybe if there was an easy mode they could have quarantined the changes to there
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Mr_Karate_II posted...
The devs would have been forced to alter the game so it's easier for people who refused to get better at it.

There's no need for an easy mode in Dark Souls,people begging for it should either spend time getting good at it or stop bitching and stop playing it.

They want an easy mode, go play minecraft or some shit.
Again, doesn't affect your experience. Sounds like you put far too much stock into your opinion. Same with xbox vs Playstation. Just play what you want to play. Who cares what others do?
Carpe petat
kirbymuncher posted...
in all honesty, an easy mode would probably have been better at preserving the game experience for the people who want a difficult game.

compare to souls-adjacent games that don't have an easy mode like elden ring, AC6, lies of P, etc. which launched with difficult bosses but received nerfs in patches. maybe if there was an easy mode they could have quarantined the changes to there
How would an easy mode preserve anything?
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Mr_Karate_II posted...
How would an easy mode preserve anything?
It would mean that the bosses would be less likely to get nerfed, preserving the original experience.
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I dont even know what a hardcore gamer would be. I play a vast collection of games ranging from hard to easy. Play what you want and fuck anyone who gatekeeps the hobby.
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Today's dev costs are ridiculous and should never have approached these levels. I blame casuals.

It is the casuals who want everything to look like a movie or they won't touch it, making so many groups focus on looks over substance so, yah that's part of the problem.
sonichu posted...
casual games are fun

2 reasons.

1, Gob posted a reasonable take on it.

2, people say things like "casual games are fun", as if they get to declare for all what's fun.

1 is bad enough, without stacking 2 on top.

It's all whatever in the end, but those are the seeds.
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Notti posted...
2, people say things like "casual games are fun", as if they get to declare for all what's fun.
So it's literally just that hardcores don't know what an opinion is, or don't have the social awareness to tell when one is being offered?
There's a difference between canon and not-stupid.
Villain_S_Fiend posted...
I've been playing video games since the "old days", and this is total horseshit. There have always been certain devs who sought to make niche games for niche audiences, but the vast majority of games have always been made to be accessible by as wide an audience (primarily young people) as

Calling bullshit.

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RetuenOfDevsman posted...
So it's literally just that hardcores don't know what an opinion is, or don't have the social awareness to tell when one is being offered?

And when you tell them what you find fun, they say it's boring.
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Problem is sometimes casuals dunno their lane. I play a lot of coop online game and casuals will join the hardest games and die asap and laugh it off.
Don't like it? Don't watch it. It's that simple
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VeggetaX posted...
Problem is sometimes casuals dunno their lane. I play a lot of coop online game and casuals will join the hardest games and die asap and laugh it off.

And they have every right to do so
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Euripides posted...
And they have every right to do so
Or people can have manners and don't make a game harder for others.
Don't like it? Don't watch it. It's that simple
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Notti posted...
And when you tell them what you find fun, they say it's boring.
So it's literally just that hardcores don't know what an opinion is, or don't have the social awareness to tell when one is being offered?
There's a difference between canon and not-stupid.
pretzelcoatl posted...
The current development costs are completely unnecessary and I don't buy that they're what's holding gaming back.

Take Two just shut down a successful indie dev they acquired after they released two "good" games for affordable pricing in a genre ("Tony Hawk style"?) without a lot of competition.

The market is going through a lot of consolidation and layoffs right now, and many big publishers are saying they're focusing on bigger games only lol
RetuenOfDevsman posted...
So it's literally just that hardcores don't know what an opinion is, or don't have the social awareness to tell when one is being offered?

Nah. Casuals be quite forceful with their opinions. Especially on "fun".

Or easy modes.
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