Godzilla x Kong (Minor Spoilers)

VeggetaX posted...

Holy shit

It's CE. We'll fight about anything.

FortuneCookie posted...

I acknowledged that Godzilla and Kong both have made makeshift weapons out of trees and rocks. I stated very clearly that they made Kong entirely dependent upon an external weapon and they did.

The very first time I use the word weapon in this post is as follows:

This whole conversation started because you said Kong was not allowed to be badass in the last two movies, when I provided evidence otherwise you went to well it's wasn't him it was the axe. So yes, you moved the goalposts.

Besides, even if you want to argue that Godzilla "cheated" against Kong by dragging him into the water, it doesn't change the fact that Kong had already been subject to the ultimate invalidation in that fight. Kong hit Godzilla with his best shot. Godzilla answered back with a shot that knocked Kong on his ass. And Godzilla was about to kill Kong with a single fiery blast before the military intervened on Kong's behalf.

It doesn't get much clearer than that. Godzilla took his best shot, answered back with a better one, and would have ended the fight right there were it not for someone bailing Kong out.

So you don't even know which fight you're referencing, huh? Godzilla only fought Kong near water when Kong was heavily sedated on a ship he could not maneuver on. So no, Godzilla did not take Kong's best shot in that fight, he took it in the 2nd one with the axe, but then struggled with MechaG and needed help. But that part doesn't count because Kong didn't do it, the axe moved on its own.

We're allowed to play by different rules from adaptation to adaptation? It's not just a natural extension of what would logically happen according to the established rules of monster interaction and their respective abilities?

Adaptations do not follow the source directly, that was the point I was making about Ghidorah being weaker in the Monsterverse. But of course you'd attempt to use that to justify your weird hate boner for Kong in these movies.

Then that's an open admission that they chose to make Godzilla significantly stronger, more aggressive, just plain cooler, and all around more capable than Kong. They chose to Nerf Kong so that Godzilla could stand taller.

Kong has never been a match for Godzilla, ever, without the magical lightning in the original Godzilla wins. And again in the most recent movie he beats Godzilla's ass, who knows where it would have went if he didn't stop to try to drag Godzilla to the portal. But again it doesn't count because, 1. It's not him it's the glove, and 2. He didn't win.

You need to figure your weird rules out

hop918 posted...

This whole conversation started because you said Kong was not allowed to be badass in the last two movies, when I provided evidence otherwise you went to well it's wasn't him it was the axe. So yes, you moved the goalposts.

I think I've been fairly consistent that using an external weapon when everyone else is fighting with what they have naturally is not what I would consider badass.

So you don't even know which fight you're referencing, huh? Godzilla only fought Kong near water when Kong was heavily sedated on a ship he could not maneuver on. So no, Godzilla did not take Kong's best shot in that fight, he took it in the 2nd one with the axe, but then struggled with MechaG and needed help. But that part doesn't count because Kong didn't do it, the axe moved on its own.

Kong came out of his sedation. In real life, that doesn't go away instantly. But that same film had him brought back by defibrillation and battling Mechagodzilla as if nothing had happened.

Adaptations do not follow the source directly, that was the point I was making about Ghidorah being weaker in the Monsterverse. But of course you'd attempt to use that to justify your weird hate boner for Kong in these movies.

I wouldn't call Ghidorah weaker. They made Godzilla more powerful (since he turned into a variation of Burning Godzilla from the Heisei series). Him beating Ghidorah because the fight is underwater seems a little iffy, but at least the argument is there that Ghidorah is an aerial monster being brought into an element that is not his own.

Kong has never been a match for Godzilla, ever, without the magical lightning in the original Godzilla wins. And again in the most recent movie he beats Godzilla's ass, who knows where it would have went if he didn't stop to try to drag Godzilla to the portal. But again it doesn't count because, 1. It's not him it's the glove, and 2. He didn't win.

I don't remember defending King Kong vs Godzilla except possibly in that I mentioned the external weapon use was fairly minimal. It's also what got Kong in trouble. He slipped and fell while throwing boulders at Godzilla. That film had Kong looking like a throw rug and carried by air balloon. And he didn't act like Kong. He acted like a wrestler named Toyonbori.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyonobori

I still like that one better than Godzilla vs Kong, but it is not the most dignified hour for either monster.

But speaking of that film, why doesn't Kong have electrical powers? Is it because Universal owns the rights to that movie? That should only be true for the distribution rights. Toho owns the Japanese original, so they could have given him his electrical powerup back.

Because they'd rather have Kong be the guy who needs to bring a knife to a fistfight to hang with the big boys. Nobody was calling for axe warrior Kong. To be fair, I have not seen the recent Planet of the Apes movies. Maybe Caesar goes around battling enemies with an axe and they were paying homage to that. I doubt it though. I think the far more likely answer is that they want Kong to seem like a chump next to Godzilla.

FortuneCookie posted...

We're allowed to play by different rules from adaptation to adaptation?

Yes, because going by Toho alone there are approximately 10 different variants on King Ghidorah which include being a destructive space alien, an incorporeal planet devouring entity from another dimension worshipped by a cult that offers planets as sacrifice, the fusion of 3 genetically engineered creatures, a cyborg sent from the future to kill Godzilla, a good guy that's a relative of the Yamato no Orochi, and a quadruped that initially looks like a skeletal humanoid.

dancing_cactuar posted...

Yes, because going by Toho alone there are approximately 10 different variants on King Ghidorah which include being a destructive space alien, an incorporeal planet devouring entity from another dimension worshipped by a cult that offers planets as sacrifice, the fusion of 3 genetically engineered creatures, a cyborg sent from the future to kill Godzilla, a good guy that's a relative of the Yamato no Orochi, and a quadruped that initially looks like a skeletal humanoid.

When you don't have objective standards of comparison, you have artist choice.

They chose to make Godzilla strong and Kong comparatively weak. I doubt if this version of Kong could beat Rodan without help. In fact, I'd say I'm rather certain of it. He couldn't beat the flying serpent without help. That's as open of an admission that they've selectively targeted Kong as there's ever gonna be.

If Godzilla pissed down Kong's throat in the next film, people would defend it saying that it's an animalistic display of dominance.

FortuneCookie posted...

Kong has an Infinity Gauntlet.

Nah, doesn't operate at all like the IG and there's older examples of what his fist actually did that would be more accurate rip off ideas. The IG let Thanos do magic and distort the fabric of time & space, without the stones it's just a golden gauntlet.

It was far more similar to the power fist from Fallout .

MaxEffingBemis posted...

Just Saw it and I thought it was fun. Great movie. Movies should be fun

FortuneCookie posted...

I think I've been fairly consistent that using an external weapon when everyone else is fighting with what they have naturally is not what I would consider badass.

Yeah, you've been consistent because you targeted the two points in my list where he used the axe and ignored everything else. Kind of hard to not be consistent when you disregard 80% of the points you're arguing against.

Kong came out of his sedation. In real life, that doesn't go away instantly. But that same film had him brought back by defibrillation and battling Mechagodzilla as if nothing had happened.

Nothing says he did, a computer showed he was 88% sedated but that's all we got in the movie. The novel goes into more detail about it wearing off but I don't know if it's canon or not.

I don't remember defending King Kong vs Godzilla except possibly in that I mentioned the external weapon use was fairly minimal.

I brought up King Kong vs Godzilla (you never mentioned it) to point out that Kong has never been able to take Godzilla without some form of weapon or non-natural ability but it doesn't take away from his character. Seeing as how you've either misrepresented or misunderstood about 1/3rd of my points it tracks that you would miss this too.

Because they'd rather have Kong be the guy who needs to bring a knife to a fistfight to hang with the big boys. Nobody was calling for axe warrior Kong. To be fair, I have not seen the recent Planet of the Apes movies. Maybe Caesar goes around battling enemies with an axe and they were paying homage to that. I doubt it though.

God forbid an ape, whose species is shown to have some decent intelligence, uses his intelligence in a big monster movie.

When you don't have objective standards of comparison, you have artist choice.

This Godzilla is meant to be part of species, until Toho told them to stop mentioning it, so yeah they're just based on the characters not following them 100%

hop918 posted...

Yeah, you've been consistent because you targeted the two points in my list where he used the axe and ignored everything else. Kind of hard to not be consistent when you disregard 80% of the points you're arguing against.

I believe I've quoted you every time. Do I have to respond to every line?

Nothing says he did, a computer showed he was 88% sedated but that's all we got in the movie. The novel goes into more detail about it wearing off but I don't know if it's canon or not.

Let's say for the sake of argument that he is still sedated during the first fight. Why does he need an axe going into the second fight? Isn't the fact that he's fighting at 100% the upgrade? Why do we need to go from a half-awake Kong to a fully awake Kong with a weapon?

I brought up King Kong vs Godzilla (you never mentioned it) to point out that Kong has never been able to take Godzilla without some form of weapon or non-natural ability but it doesn't take away from his character. Seeing as how you've either misrepresented or misunderstood about 1/3rd of my points it tracks that you would miss this too.

I mentioned it indirectly when I mentioned that Godzilla and Kong had used trees and boulders as makeshift weapons before.

God forbid an ape, whose species is shown to have some decent intelligence, uses his intelligence in a big monster movie.

If they wanted to highlight his intelligence, they could have had him fashion the axe himself. He didn't even do that. He found it.

This Godzilla is meant to be part of species, until Toho told them to stop mentioning it, so yeah they're just based on the characters not following them 100%

That was a little odd. In Godzilla vs Kong, they were rival species. In Godzilla x Kong, Godzilla is the only Godzilla there's ever been and he defeated all of the Kongs singlehandedly by trapping them in the underground world.

I think Toho is the villain more so than Adam Wingard. It's gone from "Godzilla has won every fight that he and Kong ever had" to "Godzilla's species has never lost to a Kong because Godzilla is his species." Which is really weird considering that even Godzilla Minus One mentions that there is a species of underwater dinosaur that shows up from time to time and even the original movie ended with Professor Yamane stating that he refused to believe that Godzilla was the only one of his kind. Which, he wasn't. He died from the Oxygen Destroyer and a new Godzilla was found fighting Anguirus the next year. And then a baby one was found a little over a decade later.

It also begs the question where the plate came from in Kong's axe. If there are no Godzillas out there, then that's a plate from the current and only one. I guess that places G-cell regeneration in Wolverine tiers. Or perhaps Godzilla could naturally grow one back after centuries/millennia. But it's still kind of silly. "Godzilla lost one of the plates on his back when he was beaten and nearly defeated by the entire Kong species working together. It took him a long time to recover from his near-defeat."

The film largely succeeded with what it knew it was and wanted to be. If there's any thought holding it back from GvK it's the villain monster's threat level, like in GvK MechaG literally wipes the floor with G and G never lands a hit so the help is warranted.