Lurker > NeoElfboy

I was really hoping for FFX in that match, but I remember as soon as I saw that picture, I knew FFX was hosed. I generally think pic advantages are overblown, but seeing Tidus against all of Nintendo at once is... I dunno, there was something visceral about it. Melee winning just felt right after that.

I was kind of in Zelda hater mode in 2004 and I remember being quite gleeful at it losing all four of its games in the space of five matches. What a great time. Agreed that FF7 was a pretty big favourite, unless someone wants to dig up some board odds or other data proving me wrong. Cloud had just come off a win over Link, and there was plenty of reason for FF7 > OoT to be stronger relatively than Cloud > Link.
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Ulti_PCA posted...

I know everyone loves Chrom and Tharja from that game, but I'm a Lucina honk. Sue me.

According to the big mega-poll Intelligent Systems did back when they launched Heroes, Lucina is indeed the most popular Awakening character, and right up there for most popular in the series overall. Granted, that's post-Smash, but still, she was always really popular. (which I'm quite happy with)
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Geralt vs Bayonetta might literally have been a match over that crown. EDIT: wait, Dante might be stronger than either actually?

Crono vs Snake might have been in upset in 2002 on paper but it didn't really feel like a big one; Crono, Snake, and Lara all were kinda wildcards strength-wise and none of them winning the division would have been surprising. Link beating Mario was a far bigger upset (at contest's start, at least; Link's performance over Sephiroth made the actual final pretty clear), weird as it is to think that now!
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transience posted...

But 2009 had it ever so barely beating Super Mario Kart, twice. I get LTTP. It's a top 5 game of all time. But Super Mario Kart is... not.

Lies and slander.
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#74 remains my personal most awful result in contest history. Super Metroid is/was one of my favourite games and I just couldn't believe what I was seeing. I agree that it's important for establishing the shakiness of Metroid games in contests (compared to Samus who is a beast), the dominance of Zelda, and the SFF which exists between them.

Good list so far!
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I'd take Shantae over Marston, and indeed anyone on that Xstat list below Aya. Xstats aren't perfect once you start needing to go through lots of characters to compare them (because each individual match has an associated error as a measuring device, see Pikachu vs Mega Man flipping with a slightly different set of circumstances). But they can still give you a rough idea.

There's no reason to believe Shantae is super-piss-weak and I'm not sure why Ulti is so hung up on believing she is. I've heard of her for over a decade now, her games are relatively niche but popular enough for what they are. I don't see much reason for her to be that much weaker than Shovel Knight, another indie platformer darling, who also proved himself.
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Logience posted...

UltimaterializerX posted...

Path of Radiance all day.

And the PC nutjobs would 100% take over a console contest.

But Ulti, its the slowest FE, and theres no ranking system at the end!

PoR being slow is a 100% valid criticism, as is its bad unit balance (mounted units are ridiculous) and annoying shop system. It's a good game but hasn't aged as well as some of the others, I'd put it last in the glory age of FE7-10 these days (still better than every game outside that group outside of Conquest though).

Ranking systems are cool but FE7 is the only one that has a decent one pretty much, and even that has some warts. At least PoR/RD keep the turn-based bonus exp which provides some incentive to not play the game like a turtle.
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In no particular order:

Velvet getting a win
Cloud > Mario
Yuna > Godot (Yuna might be my favourite character in the bracket; Godot is near the bottom)
Zidane choking (my most disliked character in the bracket)
Lightning taking care of business against fodder and making good on my kneejerk that she was stronger than Noctis
Tifa's run in general, but particularly upending Sephiroth (I like Seph, but Tifa always deserved to be the #2 character from that game and it's nice to see her finally get there)

EDIT: oh and 2B and Bayonetta both being legit, how did I forget that.
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Eir negating followups is weird, yeah. I do like how she negates adaptive damage; nice to have a ranged unit whose res still serves its full and proper function.
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The PS2 was basically the most dominant console we've seen since at least the NES; it outsold the GameCube and XBox by a factor of like 6. It had pretty much every major franchise the PS1 had, plus a bunch of new ones like Devil May Cry and God of War. It was also very long-lasted, thanks to the mediocre launch of the PS3.

I'd take the PS1 over it on this site, but only because this site worships the late 90's. And yeah SNES of course, since SNES was the last time Nintendo held all the major third-party games, and we loves us some Nintendo.
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Ulti_PCA posted...

Summer 2002 - Spyro vs Morrigan. Everyone picks Spyro, because people have actually heard of Spyro. Morrigan wins, and everyone credits the match picture.

I am proud to say I picked and argued for Morrigan way back in 2002. More people had heard of Spyro, but more people cared about Morrigan.

Since we spent nearly a page arguing about it: Radiant Dawn and Conquest are the best FEs, depending on whether you want to talk about total package or just pure gameplay.
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Seanchan posted...

NowItsAngeTime posted...

I would put Han Solo before Yoda personally

Yeah, that sounds like it could be true.

What other major properties could have contenders?

Cartman
Homer Simpson
Bart Simpson
The Terminator
Alien
Predator

Neo?
Simba?
Genie?

...now I feel like I'm really reaching.

If there's a universe where "Alien" would be a stronger character than Ellen Ripley, I'm not sure I want to be part of it.
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I kinda hope we get Pikachu vs Fox next contest just so we can see one of the biggest reversals of all time.
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AdamantRock posted...

NeoElfboy posted...

There's absolutely no way Sonic is still that high. Not one of his results this contest put him anywhere near that, I'd take Pikachu (who belongs in the same tier as Mega Man for obvious reasons) over him in a heartbeat.

I dunno, I still think that was just a fluke. Rock stomped all over the electric mouse Pokemon, when given a second chance. And while modern Sonic is pathetic, I don't think he's fallen quite so much as you make it sound. He had Sonic Mania recently, which was very good. By contrast, everyone seems to have forgotten about MM11. He's in Smash, he can benefit from Nintendo boosting to at least the same degree as Rock can. Against each other, I don't know. If each were fighting the same neutral opponent, I think the Blue Blur does better overall. I'm also a little uncomfortable with Pikachu being above Sephy.

Sonic got beaten badly by both Zelda and Snake (Snake never beat a N9 by over 56% until this year), and beat Auron by... well, notably less than he lost to Zelda/Snake, and Auron doesn't seem to be near-N9 level any more. I dunno, any way you spin the numbers it looks like Sonic has lost a step.

Mega Man edged Pikachu by just over 1% in the rematch; hardly a stomp! Averaging the two matches gives you quite a narrow margin indeed (around 0.6%?). Generally I'd keep characters on the same tier if the gap between them is smaller than the random variance surrounding individual match circumstances (bracket votes, day of the week, pictures, etc.) which Mega Man vs Pikachu definitively is!

I'd take Pikachu over Sephiroth as well. I feel like every character that relies on a "cool" factor for popularity fell off a bit this contest as the site gets older. With Vincent dropping as much as he has, not hard to imagine Sephiroth being similarly affected. Pikachu is the face of one of the most popular franchises on this site, not really too surprising he's strong. It ain't 2002 any more.
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AdamantRock posted...

Cloud, Mario, Samus, and maybe Zelda are too close to be put in a rigid hierarchy, IMO. Excepting the seeming strongest (Cloud) versus the apparent weakest (Zelda), any match between two of the four could go either way.

1. Link (obviously)

2. Cloud
2. Mario
2. Samus
2. Zelda

6. Snake

7. Crono

8. Mega Man
8. Sonic

10. Sephiroth (poor Sephy...)

(This is kinda random, but the image in your sig, Yuri, is a dead ringer for the Orphen opening.)

There's absolutely no way Sonic is still that high. Not one of his results this contest put him anywhere near that, I'd take Pikachu (who belongs in the same tier as Mega Man for obvious reasons) over him in a heartbeat.
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Samus
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Two reasons he gets so much recognition/love:

1. He's the main protagonist of Final Fantasy VII. He gets more recognition because FF7 is the most recognised and overall popular RPG of all time (ignoring Pokemon).

2. He actually has a fully-fleshed out personality and backstory which isn't just something generic, which many other RPG mains lack due to being silent or cookie-cutter player stand-ins.
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To be honest I've never felt like Sonic or DKC could hang with Mario. They just don't have the same sublime stage design, and both sometimes feel confused about what they're trying to accomplish as platformers.

Back in the 90's I often felt like a rebel for saying this about Sonic, whereas most people I talked to would agree about DKC. These days I feel it's the reverse.
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Phoenix
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Samus
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INTERWEBUSER posted...

You think thats the case? It would appear Link got a huge boost from BOTW despite being the same stupid mute character hes always been.

As for Zelda, what about BOTW was so appealing about her other than being a damsel in distress for Link to save, as always? At least TWW and related games had the whole pirate thing, and Zelda was not boosted back then.

Link has not gotten a "huge boost". No result he has put up has surprised me, nor many others here that I can tell? Nobody saw Noctis/Cecil/Zidane/Tidus all lose round 1 while Nintendo beasted and thought "gee, I bet Cloud is still capable of getting 46% on Link".

Zelda is definitely the one who has turned heads.

I haven't played BotW myself (not actually being a LoZ fan and all) but a lot of people have spoken highly of Zelda from the game. *shrug*
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I can't see new games having much effect on Mario at all at this point, yeah. He already has some A+ games, one more isn't going to change much.

BotW did some Zelda-specific things which helped her specifically capture more of the LoZ vote than she has in the past.

I dunno that Link has changed that much honestly. FF/Cloud has weakened a bit and Nintendo has boosted relatively, but within that Link is roughly what he's always been.
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Is there a reason we can't adjust Ganondorf's division through Mega Man now? It might still be slightly underrated due to the sprite match's effects, but at least it gives us a good idea, which deriving through Link does not.
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Stingray is near the sunken Walse Tower (which is also close to the Phoenix Tower). If you're fighting World 1 trash randoms (Sahagins etc.), you're in the right place. It's a 1/16 encounter.
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5tarscream posted...

Until this site is populated by a new generation of gamers nothing will change. even Mega Man and Sephiroth losing changes nothing because it was to other old characters. Who's the best new character? Like a character introduced in the last 5-10 years or even 10-15 years for that matter.

Probably 2B or Geralt.

That said, objectively, why should they be able to compete with Link or Mario? 2B and Geralt each have a new widely-loved game in the last few years. So do Link and Mario. The difference is that Link/Mario also have well-loved games from the 2000s... and from the 90's... and from the 80's.

If other characters want to compete they need to also have 30+ years of widely-loved new games. That's the only way to get cross-generational support needed to compete with the strongest characters.
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3.1
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I think this is the first time in contest history that one of the original Noble Nine (probably two tbh) is definitely not in the top nine unrallied characters for strength any more. The numbers Sonic put up on Snake and Zelda are simply not N9 numbers, full-stop. He's closer to Auron than to them, and Auron ain't that strong any more.

Link > Mario > Samus > Cloud > Zelda >= Snake > Mega Man ~= Pikachu > Crono seems right to me. It's not inconceivable that Tifa/Sephiroth could compete with the lower end N9, but I think Sonic's ability to compete with any of them is done.
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Lopen: yeah fair, I see what you mean now. Arena and VG closing a few hours early makes sense for some turnaround time, though I guess they could just close them at the end of the day and open them a few hours later instead.

SuorGenoveffa posted...

You are an optimist.

Sometimes I feel IS is trying to move away from Ike's popularity, unlike Lyn whose popularity they embraced instantly. I guess waifus or something.

Strongly disagree with this, I remember how much they pushed Radiant Ike in that "vote for your free unit" deal early this year.

I generally assume IntSys is motivated by $$$, and if we've gotten fewer Ikes than we expected it's probably because they haven't drawn as heavilly as they expected. Which might not be surprising if Ike's fanbase is more "casual" (due to Smash maybe? Marth is clearly an even more extreme case here). Not like they'll ever release that data for us to know for sure though.

My wife floated the theory recently that Ike's fanbase might prefer his more serious-business looks (rather than say, Chrom's or Xander's fanbases who like them in goofy outfits) and that makes some sense to me intuively but not sure how IntSys would gather data on that, unless they've done some polling I'm not aware of.
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I remember Pikachu having some great throws in SSB original as well. Agreed that he always seemed really good.
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IMO it means the difference between their strength is within the margin of error of the contest's ability to measure it.

But as far as breaking that tie, I'd go with whoever ends up with the most total votes over the two matches, which looks like it'll be Mega Man?
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Yuri_LowelI posted...

I like Octopath. But it's not even in the same Stratosphere as CT. Octopath is a 8/10 game at best

IF they want to do those style of games then please put more effort into their storytelling. Gameplay is great though.

Octopath has at least as much effort in its storytelling as CT. I don't think anybody would care about CT's story if it came out for the first time today. (I say that as a big fan of CT.)

Also Chrono Trigger outsold FF4 significantly (2M to 1.4M) so lol at calling the former niche in comparison to the latter.
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I definitely suspect Hyrule Warriors helped Zelda. Sure, its sales put it far from the biggest Zelda games, but it still opened the series up to fans of a different style of game, and HW Zelda is super-cool.

TsunamiXXVIII posted...

You know, that is a very good point. Chrono Trigger remains one of the most popular Squaresoft games ever, at least among their hardcore fanbase. Why hasn't Crono ever been in a Kingdom Hearts game?

Square all but ignores Chrono Trigger for... some reason.
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As a fan of schlocky fantasy I naturally gravitate towards Kraken but well... I think MartinFF7 summed up it best.

MartinFF7 posted...

At first I thought, seals are too cute and cuddly, it's great mascot material but not so much a team.

But then:

swirIdude posted...

Paratroopa1 posted...

I want an entire arena of people barking like a seal. I *need* it.

Same.

m_bison_yes_yes.wmv

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BetrayedTangy posted...

And as far as that Smash poll goes I'm calling bulls***, it seems a little to convenient that a character Nintendo took a big gamble on won a popularity poll for any Smash character?

Honestly I suspect most of the conspiracy theories are cooked up by people who are salty about not getting their own pet idea - Ridley, Geno, K Rool, Isaac, etc. - in instead.

If you paid attention to the current contest, you know that Bayonetta is, in fact, more popular than any of those guys. It doesn't seem crazy that she would have won that poll right on the tails of Bayonetta 2's release. Or as mentioned, perhaps finished second to a Ridley rally with Rldley already having been dismissed for other reasons.
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Although now that I think about it Kirby might well have been weaker in 1996 relatively since his games would have been seen as "kiddie" then, maybe. A lot depends on the exact demographics of the voters at the time.
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FinaIFantasy posted...

Rexxar500 posted...

During 1996 the Super Nintendo hype was huge. That system sold like pancakes, and Mega Man X was one of its signature games.

It was also one of the first major early games on the console.

And widely regarded as one of the best. There is no way MM wins. None.

Um...

-Mega Man X's North American release was in 1994. That's not an early SNES game.

-It's not really one of the "signature" games on the SNES. It barely broke 1 million copies sold. It didn't get into the original GameFAQs game contest. It's an afterthought for big Capcom SNES games compared to the massive hit that was Street Fighter 2. It's notable (and a game that I like, to be clear!), sure, but not as much as various other SNES games. The NES games were bigger for the time, and there were more of them.

But sure feel free to kid yourselves that MMX was some super-powerhouse who somehow got "ruined" by Mega Man X4 and X5. That's definitely a more plausible explanation.

Yuri_LowelI posted...

Why is MM more popular now when hes less relevant during the SNES era? As proven by game contests and Console polls NES is like 4th on the list behind SNES n64 and gamecube

The site clearly has a lot of respect for characters whose pedigree dates back to the NES, even though it doesn't rate the system that highly. Note that out of the Nintendo characters (and I'm willing to throw Mega Man in with this), all had prominent games there, while any Nintendo characters who had to wait to the SNES to get started, like Kirby (yes yes, I know about Adventure's 1993 release), Donkey Kong, Fox, and yes, Mega Man X, are a step behind.

Calintares posted...

attempt at 1996 tier list

S: Mario
A: Sonic, Donkey Kong, Samus, Mega Man
B Kefka, Link, Luigi, Yoshi, Bowser, Mega Man X, Zero
C: Diddie Kong, Simon Belmont, Doomguy, Pac-Man, Ryu, Scorpion, Cecil, Kirby, Knuckles

Move Link up to A tier for sure. He's got no reason to be weaker than Mega Man. IMO #2 is between him and Sonic.

Crono should be on there, probably in B. Miiight even be A. I'd take him over Kefka for sure. Not really sure how much of a slow burn CT was to handicap him vs the second-tier Mario characters.

Kirby, Ryu, and Scorpion(/Sub-Zero) feel better than the rest of C, for the same reason as today. I'd probably put Fox in with them, maybe a half-step behind, but still better than most of C.
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FinaIFantasy posted...

Also, in 1996 there is literally no way MM>X.

NONE!

Why on earth not? What has Mega Man gotten since 1996 that would allow him to surpass MMX if he wasn't aleady ahead by then? Mega Man's NES games were always bigger than Mega Man X. MM was a top three franchise on the NES behind Mario and Zelda, in the SNES he was buried behind Donkey Kong, Street Fighter, Star Fox, and Final Fantasy as well. Possibly Mortal Kombat. Certainly Mario Kart if that counts as a separate series.

Yuri_LowelI posted...

TheOneAboveAll posted...

Here's a wild thought:

If our first Character Battle was in 1996, Mario, Sonic, and Mega Man are by far the strongest characters in the field.

Again....Lttp did exist and so did LA and is stronger than any MM/Sonic game. Link would still beat MM and Sonic. But theyd be close matches. Mario would be clear fav though.

OoT just put Link on a God like status because that game was links first 3D game. His 2d games arent niche. Even by that point Im pretty sure Zelda series outsold the sonic series. It definitely outsold the MM series.

Nah, Sonic 1 was a beast of a game sales-wise (15 million!), and Sonic 2 outsold any Zelda at the time except the original LoZ. Anyone who thinks Sonic isn't a top-tier force in 1996 is kidding themselves. If Link beats him it's only because his games are more GameFAQs' style (that is, they require a FAQ more). Agreed about Link vs Mega Man.
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Absolutely not. Most of the reasons have already been said.

-Link's fans like seeing him win. There are a lot of them. Removing him makes them less happy. (I say this as someone who votes against Link more often than for him.)
-Excluding Link from the contest just seems silly to me. They don't hold a World Series for the second and third best teams in baseball. A competition should feature the best.
-It's entirely possible that at some point in the future, Link will no longer be the strongest. I mean, it even happened in 2003. If you retire him you won't get to see when that happens.

I do really like what this contest has done, with the losers bracket and the legends bracket. Increasing the number of competitive, interesting matches is good. But you can do that without cheapening the whole thing by making it a battle for second.
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Lopen posted...

Me too. I wish this game had less weird end times on Arena and Aether. Middle of the afternoon is so random

I mean time zones are a thing, so of course the given end times for things are gonna be random.
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Link
Phoenix
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Magus
Edgeworth
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Even if she gets a couple bad games, I think Samus will retain a timeless appeal as the original badass female lead (and of course, being from Nintendo / in every single Smash game helps). People don't even like Metroid 1 that much but she gets a lot of credit from it anyway.
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Tifa/Sephiroth is the only one in which I correctly predicted both people who would be here, and I took the wrong winner.

I have Squall, Pikachu, and Sora (-_-) as my other predictions.
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I'm amused at how the final 16 being three (!!!) women out of 16, and female characters taking the spot of the second (!!!) most popular characters from Zelda and FF7 (at least via heirarchy; I don't think we can rule out Sephiroth being stronger indirectly?), means that we've turned into waifu FAQs. I even understand the sentiment since we've all been conditioned by years of what's considered normal on GameFAQs, but if you step back for a moment it's quite ridiculous.
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Mega Man
Cloud
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Hard to imagine it would be able to put a dent in OoT on GameFAQs, where the late 90's is king. But yeah it would surely be the strongest game of the 2010's.

Also, I don't think BotW is the only thing leading to super-charged Zelda, though it is probably be the biggest. Zelda boosted partly because of that, partly because of a general Nintendo boost, and probably a bit because of Hyrule Warriors.
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I like how seven out of the Nine have sub-500 records against each other. Link is just that dominant.
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I like that 6-6 didn't feel overbloated the way 6-3 and 6-5 did (though don't get me wrong, I really enjoyed 6-5), but unfortunately the mystery presented in the case just isn't very well-done. And its nostalgic efforts didn't do much for me (nostalgia rarely does).

By contrast I really like 6-4. Much more enjoyable mystery, nicely-paced, and I think I consider it Nahyuta's best showing! ... which seeing as the case is totally irrelevant to his plot, says much about how that character didn't work for me.
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Millionaire hires accountant specifically to find out how to shift his finances around to pay as little tax as possible.

Right-wing response: He's just playin' by the rules of the game, good on him.

Waitress might possibly underreport a tiny amount of money she earns as cash tips.

Right-wing response: What a hypocrite, this sounds like a problem we should crack down on.
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