Lurker > HHH is the game

Tyranthraxus posted...

FLUFFYGERM posted...

it's not really like he picked someone that much worse.

It's been almost 2 years and people still seriously believe this shit.

Yes. Trump has in fact been much worse.

Even if Trump hadn't been much worse I don't need to be fucking threatened by him that he'll "vote Trump again unless I stop hurting his feelings"

I don't think he should be fired but he should shut the fuck up.

The problem is attitues like THIS RIGHT HERE is alienating people, and if you want change you should actually try to reach out to those people, not push them away. You can keep yelling all you want, and youll keep getting Trump re-elected.
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Shelton undoubtedly wants Cena's championship belt. And Cena undoubtedly wants Shelton's black heritage.- looseiver

DifferentialEquation posted...

Except there are certain people that you would reasonably want to keep out because they'll be gauranteed to cost way more than they'll contribute. How would you feel if your car insurance company was forced to start insuring people with a history of reckless driving? Being forced to cover people with preexising conditions is like being forced to invite to that guy to your gatherings who eats and drinks the most but basically never brings any food or drinks himself.

Except that guy eating and drinking, and the guy reckless driving, ARE DOING IT BY THEIR OWN CHOICE. The pre-existing conditioned people HAVE LITERALLY NO CONTROL OVER THEIR CONDITION.
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Shelton undoubtedly wants Cena's championship belt. And Cena undoubtedly wants Shelton's black heritage.- looseiver

......
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Shelton undoubtedly wants Cena's championship belt. And Cena undoubtedly wants Shelton's black heritage.- looseiver

clearaflagrantj posted...

Akagami_Shanks posted...

Trayvon posted...

I wonder how many college offers and scholarships he would have gotten if he was white.

like same personality, grades, etc.

Dont start your racism already

That's not racism, that's recognizing that affirmative action in college acceptance exists.

The valedictorian at my school was Indian and got rejected from Harvard, meanwhile #14 was Hispanic and accepted. And our valedictorian was an absolute fucking genius.

huh...where do you live? the exact same thing happened at my school
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Shelton undoubtedly wants Cena's championship belt. And Cena undoubtedly wants Shelton's black heritage.- looseiver

I thought it was ok, the acting seemed really off from most people. John Goodman just didn't seem in character to me.

The political jokes don't bother me but they were SO on the nose.
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Shelton undoubtedly wants Cena's championship belt. And Cena undoubtedly wants Shelton's black heritage.- looseiver

and honestly if you are not mature enough to deal with the responsibility of the chance of pregnancy you are probably not mature enough to be sexually active anyways
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Shelton undoubtedly wants Cena's championship belt. And Cena undoubtedly wants Shelton's black heritage.- looseiver

Right, but I agree with the fact that its not like a baby just appears there. In, a way you are already consenting when you have sex.
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Shelton undoubtedly wants Cena's championship belt. And Cena undoubtedly wants Shelton's black heritage.- looseiver

ImTheMacheteGuy posted...

Darklit_Minuet posted...

I don't see why you care if the fetus is a life or not. It's completely and utterly irrelevant to the abortion debate. Let's say you're right. It's a living baby. Let's treat it with the same laws we treat an adult human.

An adult human has no right to my body against my will. Period. Even if he'd die without it. Even if I'm the reason he needs access to my body to live. If I get in a car crash while driving with him and he needs a new liver and I'm the only match, he can't have my liver without my consent. Hell, even if he needs a simple harmless blood transfusion, he can't have my blood without my consent.

Personal autonomy rules are absolute, and supercede even death. If you'd die without my blood, you can't have it unless I allow you to. Even if I'm fucking dead - you still can't have my organs or blood if I refuse to be an organ donor post-mortem.

Saying that a woman has to allow a fetus to leech nutrients off her and invade her body for 9 months is quite literally giving her less rights than a corpse. Because even a corpse's bodily autonomy is respected over the lives of anyone it might be able to save.

It is a simple decision, because whether the fetus is alive or not doesn't change these simple facts.

But... but... it's an innocent baby human life!! My feelings and emotions tearfully wail out to me to believe it should be held up on some sacred pedastal!! D:

And no matter what your stance on abortion you are really acting like a scumbag right now. If you don't feel feelings and emotions about this discussion you probably aren't equipped to have it
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Shelton undoubtedly wants Cena's championship belt. And Cena undoubtedly wants Shelton's black heritage.- looseiver

https://www.theodysseyonline.com/response-body-autonomy-argument

I agree with this response to the body autonomy argument
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Shelton undoubtedly wants Cena's championship belt. And Cena undoubtedly wants Shelton's black heritage.- looseiver

Tmaster148 posted...

HHH is the game posted...

Tmaster148 posted...

HHH is the game posted...

And that's great about abortion legal in the first 20 weeks, but from this topic all your arguments really dont hold up if YOU are drawing a line between the first 20 weeks and the next 20 weeks, since everything that people have said have been either true for newborns as well, or true for third trimester fetuses as well.

Go learn biology. Most of the first twenty weeks the fetus is just a group of cells and if taken out of the mother would just instantly die.

So now we are back to this. That the issue and question is - when is a fetus a life.

No. You literally just don't understand biology and you want to force other women to go by you lack of knowledge.

I understand your point of view, but not your stance that this is a simple question.
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Shelton undoubtedly wants Cena's championship belt. And Cena undoubtedly wants Shelton's black heritage.- looseiver

Tmaster148 posted...

HHH is the game posted...

And that's great about abortion legal in the first 20 weeks, but from this topic all your arguments really dont hold up if YOU are drawing a line between the first 20 weeks and the next 20 weeks, since everything that people have said have been either true for newborns as well, or true for third trimester fetuses as well.

Go learn biology. Most of the first twenty weeks the fetus is just a group of cells and if taken out of the mother would just instantly die.

So now we are back to this. That the issue and question is - when is a fetus a life.
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Shelton undoubtedly wants Cena's championship belt. And Cena undoubtedly wants Shelton's black heritage.- looseiver

ImTheMacheteGuy posted...

Let's say a crocodile is a squid. Let's say the sky is lava. Let's say the moon is Bob Saget. Let's say a cell phone is a ham sandwich. Let's say slaves aren't people. You are literally doing the exact thing you condemn people for doing in your analogy, "let's say"ing.

Well here we go.

Do you think 'is a fetus a life?' is a question on the same level of 'Is the moon Bob Saget?'

You are saying the answer is obvious. I really don't think it is.
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Shelton undoubtedly wants Cena's championship belt. And Cena undoubtedly wants Shelton's black heritage.- looseiver

Dragonblade01 posted...

But euthanasia and abortion are separate. And the reason I say that it might not even be the most important issue, is because the issue of bodily autonomy is more critical to the discussion. It's through the issue of bodily autonomy that there is no inconsistency regarding how I treat the baby before and after it's born.

Understandable, but its still an important question, because if a fetus is not a life then its ONLY an issue of bodily autonomy.

If a fetus is a life its an issue of bodily autonomy vs the life of a child.

That, in my opinion, is a very different argument, and it hinges on the question on if a fetus is a life
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Shelton undoubtedly wants Cena's championship belt. And Cena undoubtedly wants Shelton's black heritage.- looseiver

Tmaster148 posted...

HHH is the game posted...

Would you abort a baby the night before her due date?

No that's a dumb question given abortion is usually legal only for the first 20 weeks.

HHH is the game posted...

Shes not a human yet, right?

Also you really just don't know biology. A baby 1 day from being born is basically a human as the cells have fully developed at that point.

Maybe learn biology.

Ok great. When is the line that a baby is a human? Is that an easy question for you? You guys are asking me for an exact answer but Im not the one saying its easy! I think its hard but you obviously dont, so what day is a baby a human now?

And that's great about abortion legal in the first 20 weeks, but from this topic all your arguments really dont hold up if YOU are drawing a line between the first 20 weeks and the next 20 weeks, since everything that people have said have been either true for newborns as well, or true for third trimester fetuses as well.

Nobody has been wiling to admit the question is on what day a baby becomes a human.
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Shelton undoubtedly wants Cena's championship belt. And Cena undoubtedly wants Shelton's black heritage.- looseiver

Asherlee10 posted...

I can guarantee you have nothing of value to add to the discussion of personhood in relation to abortion because you can't even understand the difference between a fetus and a newborn.

Literally every time I said newborn Ive been referring to an actual newborn.

How is it not complicated? I mean its easy to say 'well you are a person when you're born' but it is complicated when as you said a fetus has a consciousness and a brain inside of the mother as well.
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Shelton undoubtedly wants Cena's championship belt. And Cena undoubtedly wants Shelton's black heritage.- looseiver

Asherlee10 posted...

Asherlee10 posted...

Asherlee10 posted...

@HHH is the game posted...

So you don't care about social issues? You don't care about school shootings, or murder, or police violence, etc, because it doesn't personally involve you?

This is a great example of a false equivalency.

Abortion != social issues, school shootings, murder, police violence, 'etc.'

For example, a school shooting is in no way related to a woman terminating an unwanted pregnancy. I'm not even sure why you'd take this in that direction.

HHH is the game posted...

Im sorry I don't subscribe to the idea that we should only be concerned with ourselves, in my opinion you need to protect the rights of others. And yes, I know what you'll say, but again, I protect the right of the baby over the right of the mother, because the mother chose to have sex, and the baby did not get a say. Just like how the father has to pay child support because he chose to have sex, and the baby did not get a say.

Nor am I suggesting that we should only be concerned with ourselves. I actually think you might be 'strawmanning' here. That is not my argument and you are aware of that.

You are directly infringing on the right of the mother, who is a person and holds personhood, for a fetus that does not have personhood. That is not how rights work.

Also, TC, why do you keep ignoring this?

I literally responded to this in the next post.

Most of my posts have answered this.

A. Its only a false equivalency if you say a fetus has no personhood. If a fetus is treated similar to an infant, then it is not a false equivalency at all. A school shooting involves the killing of children. Is an abortion a killing? Is a fetus a child? Depends on where you think life begins, a complicated question. If you draw that line early there is no false equivalency. Agreed?

Well, then...

B. Your argument is completely based on the fact that a fetus holds no personhood. That is the whole crux of my own argument. Whether a fetus should hold personhood is a complicated question. And that is why its also not a false equivalency to bring up slavery. Okay...maybe its not an equivalency. But its a similar situation. The stripping of personhood of a group because its a lot easier for the people stripping them to believe they are not fully human
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Shelton undoubtedly wants Cena's championship belt. And Cena undoubtedly wants Shelton's black heritage.- looseiver

Dragonblade01 posted...

Yes, the fetus is a life. Human life, no less.

And? That's not the only issue when it comes to abortion. Arguably, it's not even the most important one.

It is. Again. Would you agree that a mother who cannot support her baby - let's say its a week old - and would not want to put her in the foster system, can painlessly euthanize the baby? Do you think so? If you do, all the power to you, at least you're consistent.

If not, all this stuff about social issues and positives and negatives, etc, is BS. Because if you wouldn't think about that of a human life, a person, an infant, then the only difference with the fetus is that you're dehumanizing it.

Maybe you think a fetus isn't a human, but then again, that shows that this IS the important issue.
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Shelton undoubtedly wants Cena's championship belt. And Cena undoubtedly wants Shelton's black heritage.- looseiver

BatmanWTtP posted...

HHH is the game posted...

And see this is the question. I don't know. You don't know. Nobody knows.

Answer the question

see this is the thing! I'm not pretending to be the expert on when I think a human life begins. It's okay to say 'I don't know'. Most of you would be better off for it.

Why do people always act like they are 100% right and they know everything? Why can't people question? the world would be a lot better off if we didn't have two equally bull-headed sides just trying to plead their case without giving anything to the other
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Shelton undoubtedly wants Cena's championship belt. And Cena undoubtedly wants Shelton's black heritage.- looseiver

Tmaster148 posted...

Fetuses are not humans yet. You can't dehumanize something that isn't human.

What determines humanity? When is a person a human? Would you abort a baby the night before her due date? Shes not a human yet, right?
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Shelton undoubtedly wants Cena's championship belt. And Cena undoubtedly wants Shelton's black heritage.- looseiver

Asherlee10 posted...

We assign rights, specifically, right-to-life based on qualifiers for persons. Personhood, for the purpose of establishing laws, has been decided upon by most developed nations. You don't get to supersede the rights of a person with established personhood and pass them to a fetus that is dependent on that person (the mother) who does not have personhood status.

And why is determining personhood an easy question to you? Why should we not critically examine things that have been done in the past?
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Shelton undoubtedly wants Cena's championship belt. And Cena undoubtedly wants Shelton's black heritage.- looseiver

Asherlee10 posted...

HHH is the game posted...

Asherlee10 posted...

ImTheMacheteGuy posted...

Please respond to 275

He won't because he knows he doesn't have a solid argument. He simply ignored the discussion he and I were having at the start of this topic.

Which post have I ignored? Honestly Ive tried to withdraw from the topic because we obviously disagree and its been going on for 300 posts. Im a little tired of it. But I keep reading what people are saying and some of it is so egregious or logically manipulative that I have no choice but to respond.

You conveniently start ignoring posts once you are backed into a corner. And you don't know which post? It's the one I've tagged you in 4 times now that you won't respond to. I did it again just a few posts up.

Can you give me a number there's a lot of posts in this topic
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Shelton undoubtedly wants Cena's championship belt. And Cena undoubtedly wants Shelton's black heritage.- looseiver

People will get mad at this analogy but it's probably the same mindset that slave owners use to continue feeling guilt-free over slavery. Well the slaves aren't really people! Here comes Godwin's law. Its the same thing with the dehumanization of Jews in Nazi Germany.

If those people aren't people, then you aren't doing anything wrong. Right?

Obviously I am not saying abortion is the same thing necessarily as slavery or the holocaust.

Probably.

But let's say for a second that a fetus was a life. That these were actually babies.

Then what we're talking about is the mass murder of babies, right?

And the fact that people are so easily stripping them of their humanity....well...that does seem to be a massive issue does it not?

The difference of course is that we really don't know about the humanity of a fetus. Its a tough question to come to terms with. Obviously slaves were people and Jews were people. So its not the same thing. Thats an extreme example.

But I bring it up to refer to the fact that being so eager to strip them of humanity could just be a mental exercise to avoid dealing with the enormity of this discussion.

And viewed in that lens most of the things the pro-choice people have been spewing about emotions, and about responsibility becomes very silly. Almost callous really.

To say that abortion is none of anybody's business, to say its nothing like school shootings, to say its nothing like these other social issues, is to say that you are completely confident that a fetus is not a life and that this is an 'obvious' thing. That is just not true.

And I again repeat that most of the arguments you guys are posting could be just as easily applied to newborn babies and that is NOT an exaggeration. Most of the other arguments could be applied to fetuses in the 3rd trimester.

So please....don't childishly act like this is a simple argument. Yes there has to be a line and that's a complicated quesiton, so don't simplify it or ignore it to push your agenda.
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Shelton undoubtedly wants Cena's championship belt. And Cena undoubtedly wants Shelton's black heritage.- looseiver

BatmanWTtP posted...

What defines life? Is it a heartbeat? Brain activity? Physical existence?

And see this is the question. I don't know. You don't know. Nobody knows.

I said multiple times in this topic if somebody was pro-choice because they didn't believe a fetus was a life but treated it with the necessary respect as a very tough philosophical question and acknowledged the viewpoint of pro-life people then I would understand its just something hard that we cannot agree on.

But the majority (90%) of people in this topic are treating pro-life people as moronic and stating as blanket facts things that are actually tough questions.

I have no choice but to believe they do this out of selfishness. They do it because its easiest for them to not think about the hard parts, and do what gives them the easiest answer. Because, obviously, if you think a fetus cannot be a life and that's just absolutely moronic then its great right? As much sex as you want with an easy out so you never need to take any responsibility at all. Its great to think of it that way! So they do.
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Shelton undoubtedly wants Cena's championship belt. And Cena undoubtedly wants Shelton's black heritage.- looseiver

Asherlee10 posted...

ImTheMacheteGuy posted...

Please respond to 275

He won't because he knows he doesn't have a solid argument. He simply ignored the discussion he and I were having at the start of this topic.

Which post have I ignored? Honestly Ive tried to withdraw from the topic because we obviously disagree and its been going on for 300 posts. Im a little tired of it. But I keep reading what people are saying and some of it is so egregious or logically manipulative that I have no choice but to respond.
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Shelton undoubtedly wants Cena's championship belt. And Cena undoubtedly wants Shelton's black heritage.- looseiver

ImTheMacheteGuy posted...

HHH is the game posted...

Its a sad world where people don't want to take any responsibility for their own actions

Abortion is a form of taking responsibility for a pregnancy. They take responsibility by terminating it.

What about in the case of rape pregnancies? Do you think abortion is okay then? If you were to argue that it should be okay in those cases but not others, I would have to shoot you down by bringing up the slippery slope about how if that were the policy, any pregnant girl/woman who wants to abort would just claim rape. Do you want that can of worms opened up? False rape claims are enough of a problem as it is.

Abortion is not a form of taking responsibility for a pregnancy. If a fetus was a life, then you would be murdering somebody else to avoid dealing with the consequences of your own actions.

Its like Breaking Bad where Walt never once considers going to the police or turning himself in. He says he has been 'forced' to do things, and that usually involves killing somebody as his only solution. But we as the viewer can see that this is not taking responsibility, its AVOIDING responsibility by pushing off the consequences onto somebody else.

Ive said before rape pregnancies is something that is a very complicated question to me. It does feel like playing god to say that some babies should live and not others.

But I suppose my stance is that in some ways this is a case of the mothers right vs the childs rights. And somebody is going to suffer. For me, all it takes to make my choice is that in a case of consensual sex, the mother chose to do this and knew what the consequences would be. To me that is enough for me to prioritize the child. For me, she had her choice already and she made it. Rape makes that issue tougher. Because in this case the mother did not have a choice and very well may have never gotten pregnant in the first place left to her own devices. SO should she have to suffer for somebody ELSE's actions? I don't know.

I think in the case of A. the mother's health would be in jeapordy, or B. the mother can be shown to have not been able to consent to sex, then I would rule in favor of her. But yes its almost hypocritical.
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Shelton undoubtedly wants Cena's championship belt. And Cena undoubtedly wants Shelton's black heritage.- looseiver

I agree, I acknowledge its a complicated case which is part of why I lean on the side of life. But you seem to treat it as if its not complicated at all and you are perfectly certain the fetus is not alive and don't even give it any thought. Do you see why this would be bothersome to somebody?

I feel like people are supporting the easiest solution that will allow them to have as much pleasure and as little responsibility as possible. Without a second thought.
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Shelton undoubtedly wants Cena's championship belt. And Cena undoubtedly wants Shelton's black heritage.- looseiver

Who are you to determine when a fetus has personhood?

And when I say newborn Im talking about actual newborn babies who are similarly unaware of what is going on.

Its just funny that a lot of what you guys are saying would justify letting mothers kill actual babies after birth but in THAT case suddenly you guys care.

Why is killing a newborn != abortion? Whats the difference? The question is when is a fetus a baby. Would you agree that a minute before birth its ok to get an abortion? The question is where is the line. Not an easy question.

Is a newborn baby sapient and conscious? Sort of. But they are pretty unaware of anything. They don't understand life or death. You could 'kill' them painlessly. Still most people would not approve of this. And that makes me think these arguments are BS.
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Shelton undoubtedly wants Cena's championship belt. And Cena undoubtedly wants Shelton's black heritage.- looseiver

Its a sad world where people don't want to take any responsibility for their own actions
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Shelton undoubtedly wants Cena's championship belt. And Cena undoubtedly wants Shelton's black heritage.- looseiver

creativerealms posted...

Abortion is a very hard decision. Most pro choicers know this.

Im talking about the hard decision of whether a fetus is a life or not.

Asherlee10 posted...

HHH is the game posted...

If everybody minded their own business, NOTHING would ever get done.

This is irrelevant to abortion. If you are pro-life. That's fine. Don't have an abortion.

You have no right or grounds to interfere with someone else's choice.

Its not irrelevant to abortion if you believe the fetus is a life. I will say it again. If a mother killed her newborn baby and it was considered legal I would be incensed and say that this should not have been allowed to happen. Its the same thing.

Conflict posted...

It's funny because sex is a natural human desire and people are not just gonna stop having it because of an accidental pregnancy

Then they should have the baby? Or maybe get married to the father and raise the child? This is all fine, just take responsibility. Don't try to kill babies so you can have more guilt-free sex.

But yes, I will say again, I understand if people disagree with this. I don't dislike people who disagree for intelligent reasons like they genuinely don't believe a fetus is alive, but none of you people are acting like that is a hard question
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Shelton undoubtedly wants Cena's championship belt. And Cena undoubtedly wants Shelton's black heritage.- looseiver

Dragonblade01 posted...

You know it doesn't have to be all or nothing, right?

Part of making measured decisions regarding what we do and do not allow as a society includes understanding degrees of consideration based on specific situations.

It's ridiculous to insinuate that allowing it at one level means you need to allow it at every other level.

But for the people who say that this is about feelings and human life has no value, what possible reason do they have for NOT allowing the murder of newly born babies by their parents?

I find these people hypocritical if they're not in favor of that, because whatever reason they say is going to be the same reasons they just blasted
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Shelton undoubtedly wants Cena's championship belt. And Cena undoubtedly wants Shelton's black heritage.- looseiver

Conflict posted...

I think it's funny af when pro-life people suggest that people stop having sex

why is that funny? And Im not suggesting people stop having sex. Just people that can absolutely not support a baby. I mean birth control is not ALWAYS effective so you can take the risks but just be aware of and ready for the consequences
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Shelton undoubtedly wants Cena's championship belt. And Cena undoubtedly wants Shelton's black heritage.- looseiver

ImTheMacheteGuy posted...

lubmelubyou posted...

Human life means nothing. Never has, never will because we only care about our immediate selves no matter how much we pretend not to.

As far as I'm concerned an abortion can take place any time before it leaves the body as long as it is safe to do so for the woman.

But if human life not mean anything then why murder illegal? D:

Exactly. You can say 'THERED BE CHAOS'

Yet there would be no chaos if it was legal for a parent to kill their child in the first six months after birth where they won't know better.

Why are you against it then if you are?

What possible reason could there be besides value of human life?
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Shelton undoubtedly wants Cena's championship belt. And Cena undoubtedly wants Shelton's black heritage.- looseiver

ImTheMacheteGuy posted...

Conflict posted...

I think it's funny af when pro-life people suggest that people stop having sex

Not really. Is it funny af when anti-airborne-illness people suggest that people stop sneezing?
you can prevent a sneeze right as it is about to happen, just fyi

I didn't realize sex was involuntary
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Shelton undoubtedly wants Cena's championship belt. And Cena undoubtedly wants Shelton's black heritage.- looseiver

Do you really believe your own crap?

This discussion has gone for 26 pages and to be honest Im just kind of tired of it

But sometimes I see things I have to respond to.

I was very upset by the Parkland shootings. I am sick of these school shootings going on and think we need to do something to change it.

I am not in school anymore. I dont have any kids.

Its really not my business if a school shooting happens.

Too bad though, I still care.

As hard as this may be for you to believe, not everybody only worries about things that are their business. If youve ever worried about something like school shootings or police brutality towards others, then you should understand. I support things like gay marriage, and am against discrimination though it is none of my business at all.

That is one of the worst defenses I've ever seen.

If everybody minded their own business, NOTHING would ever get done.

And if you are on the left, to hate somebody for putting their noses in things that aren't their business is one of the most hypocritical things of all.

That is something that many people on the left do proudly. You can't get anything progressive done if you don't worry about anything that isn't your business and it would be a sad world where nobody is allowed to worry about the treatment of minorities besides the minority groups themselves
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Shelton undoubtedly wants Cena's championship belt. And Cena undoubtedly wants Shelton's black heritage.- looseiver

Dragonblade01 posted...

I won't accept any argument regarding human morality (and especially our laws) that's founded in an emotional response.

I want them to be measured decisions where the pros and cons of the actions and their results are carefully weighed.

This is complete BS. There are tons of laws based on emotional reactions to what is right and wrong. Its like you said. If a woman cannot support a baby and the foster care system is so bad, should she be allowed to murder her newborn? Most I assume would say no, though this is an emotional response to what we believe is right and wrong. By most of the people's logic in this topic she'd actually be doing him a favor, but still most would not support this.
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Shelton undoubtedly wants Cena's championship belt. And Cena undoubtedly wants Shelton's black heritage.- looseiver

Like seriously, it's ridiculous to discount an argument as being about 'emotion'. Of course its about emotion. Maybe the problem is youre too...emotionless? There is no real law that says what is right and what is wrong, we have to decide that for ourselves.
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Shelton undoubtedly wants Cena's championship belt. And Cena undoubtedly wants Shelton's black heritage.- looseiver

Samurontai posted...

Has there ever been a pro life argument that isnt entirely based on emotion?

The closest I can find are people who are against abortion, but agree thats its a necessity for multiple reasons

Is there an argument against murder that isnt based entirely on emotion?
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Shelton undoubtedly wants Cena's championship belt. And Cena undoubtedly wants Shelton's black heritage.- looseiver

IfGodCouldDie posted...

IfGodCouldDie posted...

Who says it's an easy choice?

Because you must have missed it, @HHH_is_the_game

Its not about being an easy choice, its about the RIGHT to have an abortion being a difficult argument, not an individual person's decision to have one.
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Shelton undoubtedly wants Cena's championship belt. And Cena undoubtedly wants Shelton's black heritage.- looseiver

GiftedACIII posted...

HHH is the game posted...

GiftedACIII posted...

BettyB0op08 posted...

HHH is the game posted...

GiftedACIII posted...

sktgamer_13dude posted...

Im sorry that the pro-life people only care about the child until birth and then dont care. Because they think our s***ty and underfunded adoption/foster care system can burden the children when they already cant.

They actually don't. They'd happily make an exception for rape and then act like it's all merry and then forget that the supposed child they're clamoring for got "murdered".
They only want to spite people who carelessly have sex and it's just a remnant of the anti-sex before marriage idea that religion has embedded in us.

There is nothing wrong with having sex, just TAKE RESPONSIBILITY AND HAVE THE CHILDREN YOU CREATE WITH IT

I mean, if you are unable to reliably, emotionally and financially support a child, like most people who have abortions, aborting it IS the responsible choice. And don't say adoption when the foster system is already crowded and corrupt.

Exactly this. And responsibility is a whole different argument than "child's life".

You fail to see this from the pro-life perspective though. You fail to see that from the pro-life perspective, to people who believe life starts before birth, you are saying that murder is the responsible choice. You are saying that if you cant support a child its ok to create one and then kill it.

To me, who believes a baby is a baby before the moment of birth, it sounds like you're saying its ok to have babies, but then if you cant support them you can just kill them later. You would find this appalling with newborn babies but you don't see how to a pro-lifer this is equally appalling.

and you seem to think wildly having sex and getting abortions is ok. Which is just...what?

Nobody ever said women cant have sex! They just said women cant have sex and then aborot the baby. And obviously this would go for men too but men are not typically a part of the abortion discussion.

But it's ok to murder an "innocent baby" just so someone doesn't have to bear it if it's not "her fault". Yeah, this is why we shouldn't be looking at it from a pro-life's perspective. Because they are emotionall, illogical and anti-reality. It's like people campaigning for the rights of sex dolls.

I agree this is a tough question. But there's nothing emotional about this. Or at least no more than it should be. Would you not be just as emotional if we were talking about newborn babies? I mean, here's my question. Do you believe a woman who cannot care for a baby who was just born, and cannot give that baby a new life...should she have the right to murder it? remember that this baby wil have a horrible life if it lives. The foster system cannot support it. The woman cannot support it. Would it not be illogical to keep it alive? IF not, how is it different, besides that IN YOUR OPINION, a fetus is not considered 'alive' until it is born?
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Shelton undoubtedly wants Cena's championship belt. And Cena undoubtedly wants Shelton's black heritage.- looseiver

Like if you are unable to reliably emotionaly and financially support a child, wtf are you doing having unprotected sex? This goes for men, as well as women. It feels like men actually ARE held accountable with how strict the child support laws are, but women don't seem to be.
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Shelton undoubtedly wants Cena's championship belt. And Cena undoubtedly wants Shelton's black heritage.- looseiver

GiftedACIII posted...

BettyB0op08 posted...

HHH is the game posted...

GiftedACIII posted...

sktgamer_13dude posted...

Im sorry that the pro-life people only care about the child until birth and then dont care. Because they think our s***ty and underfunded adoption/foster care system can burden the children when they already cant.

They actually don't. They'd happily make an exception for rape and then act like it's all merry and then forget that the supposed child they're clamoring for got "murdered".
They only want to spite people who carelessly have sex and it's just a remnant of the anti-sex before marriage idea that religion has embedded in us.

There is nothing wrong with having sex, just TAKE RESPONSIBILITY AND HAVE THE CHILDREN YOU CREATE WITH IT

I mean, if you are unable to reliably, emotionally and financially support a child, like most people who have abortions, aborting it IS the responsible choice. And don't say adoption when the foster system is already crowded and corrupt.

Exactly this. And responsibility is a whole different argument than "child's life".

You fail to see this from the pro-life perspective though. You fail to see that from the pro-life perspective, to people who believe life starts before birth, you are saying that murder is the responsible choice. You are saying that if you cant support a child its ok to create one and then kill it.

To me, who believes a baby is a baby before the moment of birth, it sounds like you're saying its ok to have babies, but then if you cant support them you can just kill them later. You would find this appalling with newborn babies but you don't see how to a pro-lifer this is equally appalling.

and you seem to think wildly having sex and getting abortions is ok. Which is just...what?

Nobody ever said women cant have sex! They just said women cant have sex and then abort the baby. And obviously this would go for men too but men are not typically a part of the abortion discussion.
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Shelton undoubtedly wants Cena's championship belt. And Cena undoubtedly wants Shelton's black heritage.- looseiver

ImTheMacheteGuy posted...

HHH is the game posted...

_Rinku_ posted...

HHH is the game posted...

Key posted...

I don't really care about the whole debate but I'm definetly pro choice. You want to get a abortion? Go ahead idgaf not like the worlds hurting for population. Comparing it to murder is a emotional response I can't relate to

Its not an emotional response if you believe the fetus is alive.

It's an emotional response because you let your belief (itself an emotional response) guide it.

Hate to tell you this, but there's really no other way to handle this. You are saying the argument that works best for your side, but you are basing it on your own belief that it is NOT alive

I personally care less about whether or not it is alive than its level of consciousness/self-awareness. You can try to argue that newborns aren't all the conscious or self-aware, and you have already stated the fact that no one remembers their infancy, so I'll acknowledge that now to save you the trouble of restating it. You say that where life truly begins is a complex issue and it is yes, and I think any reasonable person wouldn't draw that line any later than birth, so the memory argument is moot. The problem I have with the anti-abortion group is they call it back at the moment of conception which to me is as logically unreasonable as time of birth/post birth (which no one should be claiming). Where in between is complex and not fully understood and we agree on that. It's just that in atypical cases, such as rape, incest, terminal defect, mother in grave danger etc., I would always logically side with the person who is already confirmed alive and has spent time living. I don't see cause to side differently in normal, simple cases for no other reason than to side with that which may or may not be alive but is yet to have the capacity to know what being alive means.

As I said I find it a complicated issue. It seems so wrong to me to abort a baby because of circumstances outside of its control, but it also seems wrong to me to be forced to bear a child that is not her fault, and rape is outside of her control as well. I agree though it is tough. In that situation you have two lives, neither of which made a decision, both of which who are going to have to suffer for forces outside of their control. I guess that's what makes it different from me.

Like you said if its the mothers life or the babies, or if the mother did not do anything that could reasonably expect pregnancy, you have to choose one, and I kind of understand even though it seems rough.

Its only when the womans own decisions led to the baby that I think that she has made her choice and I dont feel guilty prioritizing the babies life. In my opinion, if you have sex you are consenting to the consequences. Man or woman. And this is legally recognized in child support
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Shelton undoubtedly wants Cena's championship belt. And Cena undoubtedly wants Shelton's black heritage.- looseiver

GiftedACIII posted...

sktgamer_13dude posted...

Im sorry that the pro-life people only care about the child until birth and then dont care. Because they think our s***ty and underfunded adoption/foster care system can burden the children when they already cant.

They actually don't. They'd happily make an exception for rape and then act like it's all merry and then forget that the supposed child they're clamoring for got "murdered".
They only want to spite people who carelessly have sex and it's just a remnant of the anti-sex before marriage idea that religion has embedded in us.

There is nothing wrong with having sex, just TAKE RESPONSIBILITY AND HAVE THE CHILDREN YOU CREATE WITH IT
---

Shelton undoubtedly wants Cena's championship belt. And Cena undoubtedly wants Shelton's black heritage.- looseiver

_Rinku_ posted...

HHH is the game posted...

Key posted...

I don't really care about the whole debate but I'm definetly pro choice. You want to get a abortion? Go ahead idgaf not like the worlds hurting for population. Comparing it to murder is a emotional response I can't relate to

Its not an emotional response if you believe the fetus is alive.

It's an emotional response because you let your belief (itself an emotional response) guide it.

Hate to tell you this, but there's really no other way to handle this. You are saying the argument that works best for your side, but you are basing it on your own belief that it is NOT alive
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Shelton undoubtedly wants Cena's championship belt. And Cena undoubtedly wants Shelton's black heritage.- looseiver

Key posted...

I don't really care about the whole debate but I'm definetly pro choice. You want to get a abortion? Go ahead idgaf not like the worlds hurting for population. Comparing it to murder is a emotional response I can't relate to

Its not an emotional response if you believe the fetus is alive.
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Shelton undoubtedly wants Cena's championship belt. And Cena undoubtedly wants Shelton's black heritage.- looseiver

ImTheMacheteGuy posted...

HHH is the game posted...

Im actually a liberal thanks.

But I just want to say that if you don't want a gun? Don't buy one.

I guess we just solved gun control.

does that sound right to you?

If this is meant to convey what I think it's meant to convey, I'm actually very glad you ninja'd me.

I believe in gun control, but to me the arguments are equally absurd. the fact is liberals are often the ones saying this so Im trying to put this in language they will understand how ridiculous it sounds
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Shelton undoubtedly wants Cena's championship belt. And Cena undoubtedly wants Shelton's black heritage.- looseiver