Lurker > Mr Lasastryke

SupremeZero posted...

Theoretically, the conversation helps observers, even if it doesn't help those involved in the conversation.

this is my reasoning for arguing with trolls. obviously i'm not going to have a productive discussion with them, but i don't want their arguments to go unchallenged because then they could potentially convince lurkers that they're not talking out of their ass.

plus i think people making terrible posts should get called out for making terrible posts.
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Nelson_Mandela posted...

Hey, I only can really judge based on my own experience. I grew up in poverty, worked really hard to get where I am, and now I am wealthier than most--and just made a five figure donation to deworming children (dollar for dollar the most efficient charitable expense around!).

obviously we can extrapolate this one anecdote to US society in general.
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Espeon posted...

It must be nice living in a fantasy land where working hard actually matters more than the fluke of birth granting untold advantages.

well, sephy does believe black people have it way easier in the US than white people.
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Nelson_Mandela posted...

Saying that everyone deserves good things regardless of effort and skill isn't "humane," it's butting heads with nature.

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Nelson_Mandela posted...

If you have not worked to better yourself, you have not earned a better life.

what if you're unable to work?
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MenuWars posted...

Giving everyone the same thing is socialism.

false.
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lol @ anyone defending trickle-down economics in 2017.
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MenuWars posted...

it's the first time I've actually genuinely thought of the left as having a big fascist outcry.

don't you think you're exaggerating a bit?
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lol @ the "if we can't discuss scientific truths anymore where does that lead us?!?" thing.

IQ being race-related is not a "scientific truth," sorry.
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foolm0r0n posted...

How could you possibly be satisfied scientifically with a single study of such a small sample size like that, when there are examples of millions of people (pre-80s US women and modern Indian women) that go unexplained?

using small sample sizes is often done in science. ien ang bases her entire book watching dallas on nothing but a handful of letters of dallas fans, for instance.

but that works because her premise is just "here's a bunch of different kinds of dallas fans that exist." obviously it's a fucking stupid thing to do when you're trying to prove a stance like "here are fundamental biological differences between men and women."
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PrivateBiscuit1 posted...

You're your own writer, but if your book is something you would love to be big and have a chance to make some money and a bigger name for yourself, you're better off with a publisher.

yeah, that's the thing. if you want to be big it's better to get a publisher, but obviously it brings a risk of compromising your artistic integrity (as shown by the ed story).
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azuarc posted...

While I'm a little upset at him for giving in, I'd probably have done the same in his position.

yeah, can't fault him for doing what he did if he was in a contract.

this is more proof of my point that self-publishing is the way to go, though!
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not sure if you know this, azuarc, but did ed try different publishers?

getting turned down by publishers as a novelist is pretty normal. even j.k. rowling got turned down by like 20 publishing companies before bloomsbury accepted harry potter. i'm not sure if ed should have rewritten the book just because his publisher turned out to be a moron who took that crazy bitch blogger seriously. (hell, nowadays you can even easily self-publish your book if you want to get it out there. that way you don't have to deal with publishers at all.)
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LapisLazuli posted...

No, I had Ulti blocked through all of that originally.

realo was more active in those than ulti, actually!
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LapisLazuli posted...

The fuck is a PUA?

were you not around for the alpha/beta debates?

i wish i was you.
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and yeah, i still question if PUA really works that well for "curing depression" - i've had personal experience with people suffering from depression so i know how serious it is. if men are immediately cured with the instant gratification of sex, i have to wonder how "depressed" they were in the first place.
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ExThaNemesis posted...

If negging didn't work,

i'm not saying it never works.

you're saying "it's the only thing that works and therefore depressed men HAVE to do it because otherwise they will stay depressed and possibly commit suicide." my counterarguments to this are: 1) perhaps these men could cure their depression by doing something else than obsessively following heartiste's tips - seeing a therapist, for instance. 2) these men don't HAVE to resort to PUA tactics like negging. treating women nicely but still following yoblazer's tips (dressing well, working out) works too - sometimes.
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Lopen posted...

Honestly dressing well, eating right, lifting weights. These are all good things for everyone and could be the bigger thing helping guys out more than "playing the game" or whatever.

Self-acceptance isn't always the right answer. Sometimes you're depressed for reasons that aren't purely mental-- if PUA dangles a carrot in front of guys that tricks them into good methods of self improvement under the presentation of "do this to get laid," then it sounds like potentially a positive thing to me.

not when PUA also comes with stuff i disapprove of (the "acting like an asshole" stuff).

like, yoblazer's "here's my tips for getting laid" topic also mentioned dressing well and lifting weights. that stuff is perfectly fine (obviously), but it's also not specific to PUA at all.
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ExThaNemesis posted...

women should accept that men act like assholes to them because it WORKS.

The dating game is like this, women set the rules and men react to them.

If the best way to seduce women was to post up at the bar rocking a dad bod and fedora you can bet the modern PUA game would be tailored to that.

yeah, obviously then we get to the point of "do you think the majority of women actually appreciate PUA stuff like negging?" i don't and you do. there's nowhere we can really go from here - i often reached this stalemate with realo back in the alpha/beta days too.
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Lopen posted...

The alternative is pretty obviously "they stay depressed longer and are at a greater risk of killing themselves due to staying depressed longer"

Which I mean, if those are the dice you wanna roll, then sure. I feel like most men who are reading up on PUA stuff are probably in a bad place or heading to a bad place, though (I see no reason you'd read into it except out of desperation), so I'm inclined to agree it probably has more benefits than drawbacks at a glance.

I think the only non-douche argument here is PUA causes more women to be depressed than it helps men not be depressed. And I'm not even sure you're making that one.

i'd like to see some evidence that tons of depressed men on the verge of killing themselves were saved by PUA before i actually believe this. like, right now we have one anecdote - extha - and extha never even said he was seriously considering committing suicide before being "saved." perhaps if this evidence exists i'll reconsider my feelings on the movement, but even then i think it's pretty disgusting that the argument in defense of PUA is apparently "women should accept that men act like assholes to them because otherwise they'll commit suicide."
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ExThaNemesis posted...

I'm not asking you to think PUA is all awesome but I am asking you to not compare them to Nazis.

it was an analogy, obviously.
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Lopen posted...

I don't think he literally implied that, actually.

my interpretation was that the alternative was that "they would stay depressed and kill themselves," but i may have misread that.
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ExThaNemesis posted...

Maybe you'd rather they go get a therapist to chuck anti-depressants at them or something.

that's one possible solution, yes. the people in the depression topic on this very board also tend to give quite good advice to depressed people. unfortunately in some cases there's no solution that works.

but yeah, if PUA stuff prevented men from committing suicide that's nice, but i would still say that's a shaky argument to use to defend the movement. perhaps some guy didn't commit suicide because he read mein kampf - does that mean there's nothing wrong with the book? forgive me for not immediately jumping on the "PUA IS AWESOME" train just because of this argument.
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ExThaNemesis posted...

yeah man it's all about the emojis. that was the point.

my point wasn't the emoji either, it was "he comes off pretty douchy in those messages and i'm pretty sure there are plenty of men who don't, in fact, talk to women like that." the emoji was an example of that douchiness.
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ExThaNemesis posted...

"Depressed guys used PUA stuff to give themselves confidence enough to turn things around but I would rather they stay depressed and kill themselves."

literally implying PUA stuff was the only way for them to get out of their depression.
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ExThaNemesis posted...

Like do you guys have anything other than "Well, we just KNOW women aren't like that."

that's not my argument. the furthest i've gone in this topic is "not all women are like that."
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MenuWars posted...

Devil's advocate isn't always that helpful though when executed argumentatively though.

it wasn't DA though. all i was saying was "there's a possibility that it's not biological." i wasn't being disingenuous when i was saying that.
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ExThaNemesis posted...

Anyway y'all can turn your noses up completely at PUA and call them sick misogynists or whatever but I'm sure there's a non negligible number of "desperate guys" who were completely depressed to the point of suicide that got into the stuff and learned how to be confident enough to get girls (or a girl)

so I like to focus on the positives.

yeah, it's such a positive that desparate guys act like assholes to girls to get them to fuck them.
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foolm0r0n posted...

ExThaNemesis posted...

I don't think book sales define anything

ExThaNemesis posted...

But yeah at best on our side we have anecdotal evidence and the large scale success of companies like Real Social Dynamics and other PUAs like Roosh V.

debate over
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MenuWars posted...

Just like it's possible God exists. (Hyperbole)

sure. even richard dawkins admits that we can't rule out the possibility that god exists.

perhaps i'm being too nuanced for this discussion but i just like nuance.
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lol @ extha going "OMG HAVE YOU GUYS EVER TALKED TO A WOMAN THIS IS HOW ALL MEN TALK TO WOMEN."

i would never use that fucking stupid emoji when talking to either a woman or a man via DM.
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MenuWars posted...

There's nothing to say we can't evolve past that or ration that it's defunct, but it seems counter productive to assume it isn't biological when there's zero evidence to express that theory.

i'm not assuming anything.
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Metal_DK posted...

its noticed across all sexually dimorphic species, and across every culture throughout our own species' history.

KanzarisKelshen posted...

Which does not imply causation. Every kind of animal establishes its own society, same as humanity. This doesn't make their decisions biologically rooted.

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MenuWars posted...

and as much as I hate to admit it, it is successful because there's no fucking way those pricks get away with that if it isn't.

there are other ways to be successful too, though.

people who believe in PUA bullshit go "i acted like an asshole to a girl and she wanted to fuck me, so CLEARLY this is the only way to get sex!" it's confirmation bias, nothing more.
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Metal_DK posted...

At least you are starting to entertain reality

"women are attracted to men of high status" is reality, i'm not denying that at all.

"women are BIOLOGICALLY attracted to men of high status" is unconfirmed, not sure why you're 100% convinced that this isn't the case. do you have a scientific source that only you are aware of?
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yeah, "women are biologically attracted to men with high status" seems to be an educated guess rather than a conclusion based on actual science. it COULD be the case, but we shouldn't jump to the conclusion that it IS the case.
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MenuWars posted...

Admittedly the guys above don't have the best track record, but they're not entirely full of shit either.

they're at least 95% full of shit.
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you're not as terrified of her as you are of alaka?
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Metal_DK posted...

Everytime I bring it up I get yelled at, but I think the right acknowledges that a career is more important to a man's health than a career is for a woman's health.

uh, even if this is true this hardly seems like a super hot issue that gets debated constantly by both sides. even if right-wing people end up being right about it more often i don't think it's fair to say "the left is massively feels over facts on this."
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Metal_DK posted...

But there are some key concepts that the left are massively "feels over facts" than the right on,

like what?
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Metal_DK posted...

This. Both "ends" of the political spectrum are all about feelz. Its stupid to put one over the other on that subject.

last election the republican candidate was lying way more than the democratic candidate. i think it's fair to say that republicans are more "feels over facts" than democrats at the moment (if they haven't always been this way).
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foolm0r0n posted...

Then why do you spend so much time defending "the left" from stereotypes and other BS?

because it's a fact that "the left" doesn't adhere to these stereotypes and this other BS?
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foolm0r0n posted...

I totally understand identifying with one or the other, but WHY is it so important that everyone agrees "your side" is right and just?

i'd like for everyone to agree with facts.
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Vlado posted...

The left's end goal - whether they realise it or not - is to erase peoples, cultures and races and turn everyone into a grey, materialistic mass of worthless sheep. To dehumanise humans and turn them into cattle.

Second, the left is WRONG on most/all of these issues, and saying "economics" is particularly laughable, as socialism and communism have failed or are in the process of failing spectacularly everywhere they've been implemented.

nope. socialism has never been tried.

Seeing as the right is the side that supports its claims with facts, and the left's currency of choice is feelings, that's a rather silly thing to say.

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EndOfDiscOne posted...

And his "your views are unwelcome because they suck" is what I dislike most about the left,

good thing this isn't emblematic of the left at all, then.
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the Left tends to deny science concerning biological differences between people (e.g., IQ[8] and sex differences).

this is enough to know i don't have to read this article.
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i like how he only hashtagged "fake" because he inserted a space between "fake" and "news."
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bump
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the tom brady of reasoning.
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muffin complaining about someone deliberately misrepreseting someone else's statement is pretty ironic tho.
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