Lurker > Luis_Sera89

Mid tier

Hooray, not low this week.
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"Eet's game time..."
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Fort Frolic
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Can't say I'm especially thrilled by the prospect of having no idea what mercs will be on the other team less than a day before Peace begins.
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"Eet's game time..."
https://soundcloud.com/luissera/intro/s-VvkMJ

Calling her a hard counter is a stretch. She can't avoid Rhum fire indefinitely. Even if she was spamming her butterfly dodge (which feels like something a player would do in gameplay, not how she'd actually move around everywhere), she's only incorporeal for a split second at a time.
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"Eet's game time..."
https://soundcloud.com/luissera/intro/s-VvkMJ

Kan hasn't officially said anything yet, but if that ruling excerpt is to be believed, we may have both been under the wrong impression of where the team's start anyway, and it's Selvaria starting by the Ruins.
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"Eet's game time..."
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Absolutely sign
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Man, she's even in a GameFAQs GotY and everything.
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Perhaps, but I also don't think Lightning II is Crono's immediate go-to spell of choice for hitting a single target. Even giving him credit to consider it sooner rather than later, Sonic's already been and gone by that point.

But anyway, I think we're getting sidetracked by a relatively trivial matter. Battle knowledge is useful, and Sonic is better at getting it than Alice shrinking and observing from a distance, but it's hardly crucial. I still maintain Alice attacking from range is not a fight-winning strategy, especially when the other team is better at it, albeit from a less advantageous position.
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"Eet's game time..."
https://soundcloud.com/luissera/intro/s-VvkMJ

He'd be up there to have a look, not shake hands. You don't need to be within arm's length for that. I didn't mention any non-Alice combatants because they were never in the equation for hitting a Sonic that isn't there to fight.

I wasn't downplaying the damage her cannon can do either, just saying it isn't destroying solid stone terrain like explosives can.
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"Eet's game time..."
https://soundcloud.com/luissera/intro/s-VvkMJ

I don't think anyone is suggesting Sonic is going to be idle. He's actually a pretty great scout on a terrain that allows him to do so, such as this, so he'll be able to get a read on the enemy and then relay that to his team. Alice can't even prevent him from doing so, her weapons just don't fire quickly enough. Even the Octo-grinder does pretty piddly damage that requires sustained fire to kill anything in Madness Returns. Sonic isn't that squishy that he'd die from getting tagged by that if Alice manages to hit him. Even then he could return to Tifa for healing.
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"Eet's game time..."
https://soundcloud.com/luissera/intro/s-VvkMJ

She can't attack whilst shrunken though, so are you claiming she'll be looking for them whilst tiny and then shooting blind with a rough idea of where they are (if she spots them)? Because if that's the strategy, Lara and Selvaria can just concentrate fire on where the shots are coming from. Cover isn't indestructible in a realtime environment, and Lara/Selvaria can rain explosives/napalm a lot easier than Alice can, given the large drain on her willpower (MP) caused by the Eye Staff. Tea meanwhile, isn't destroying anything.
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"Eet's game time..."
https://soundcloud.com/luissera/intro/s-VvkMJ

It isn't stupid, it's necessity. How is Alice's team ever going to win if they don't move from where they start? She has her team's only ranged attacks, and if she's peeking out to see where the enemy is, she's open to being hit herself.

I think the trench warfare "wait things out to a stalemate" scenario is silly, so if it's between a team with strong range walking into melee range, or a melee oriented team walking into the only range they can be effective from, the latter is much more likely.
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"Eet's game time..."
https://soundcloud.com/luissera/intro/s-VvkMJ

KJH posted...

So why's the opening post say DC's team are the attackers?

This is a combination of M4's terrain bidding system and Draft Mercs giving defined starting positions, so it's never really come up before. I'm the designated attacker and I also won the terrain bid, so despite it being Selvaria's terrain, she's starting in the attacker position. It probably makes a difference here, but not to a match-turning degree.

To summarise, Alice's team really wants to get into melee range, but for them to do so without sustaining serious damage, or even getting outright wiped, requires Selvaria's team to essentially march up the slope and walk right up to them, which is clearly an illogical thing to do. They may not know who's on the other team, but there's no way they'd sacrifice the range they know they have by gambling on the unknown.

Where Alice starts is somewhat fortified, but they can't stay there forever; and there simply isn't enough cover on the map for them to safely approach without taking fire. Juliet is her team's best bet of beating Selvaria, but she needs to get into melee range first, and whilst she's capable of deflecting bullets, there's nothing she can do about lasers, napalm or explosive-tipped arrows. Crono and Geese are in the same boat. Alice has a lot more tricks up her sleeve, but dodging fire on the approach to Selvaria whilst simultaneously trying to keep her teammates alive is too great an ask. She'll have her brief period of invincibility, but by then it's likely too late for her to accomplish much with it.

Basically, DC's argument is predicated too much on the "if" factor. IF Crono gets close Luminaire will do work. IF Juliet gets close enough she can out-melee Selvaria. IF Alice plays perfectly she can close on Lara mostly unscathed whilst still having a team to back her up. IF Selvaria decides to be an idiot she could give up her team's biggest strength and willingly close the gap between the two of them. IF Sonic and Tifa's support work buffing, disrupting and scouting achieves nothing whatsoever then they're more or less dead weight.

The most likely scenario is simply a case of a team with strong range whittling down a melee focused team on a terrain with not enough cover for the latter to safely approach. Alice is the best fighter on her team with the most ways of coping with projectiles, but in between all that as well as Sonic being a nuisance trying to put off her dodging and ice-casting, what good does it do if her team is all dead, even with 20-30 seconds of invincibility near death?
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"Eet's game time..."
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I've played Lollipop Chainsaw, I know exactly what Juliet can do. She's acrobatic and has a fearsome chainsaw that she's capable of deflective automatic fire with. She's very good. But she has no feats dealing with grenades or napalm.
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"Eet's game time..."
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And that's ignoring the fact she can't parry explosives. Or napalm.
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"Eet's game time..."
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Well, I mean I know Selvaria's team are technically the attackers here, but they're not exactly under any obligation to march into a more convenient range for the enemy team either. Selvaria is the most tactically minded fighter here, and on her own terrain to boot; she won't be playing into the other team's hands. There may be more cover up the hill, but Lara can even flush them out with her aforementioned tech arrows if necessary.

I think if Juliet can get close enough to Selvaria to get the upper hand on her, and Alice wreaks enough havoc in range they can pull it off, but it requires too much on balance to go their way in the lead-up for it to be a likely outcome. It's far more likely that Selvaria just overpowers from range and Juliet never gets a chance to close the ground she needs to, in between guns and Sonic being a pest.
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"Eet's game time..."
https://soundcloud.com/luissera/intro/s-VvkMJ

Her bow is basically her sniper weapon, so there's two fighters capable of accurate ranged damage, and in addition to her armour-piercing regular arrows, napalm and explosive arrows both have significant splash damage. The range probably isn't quite as long as Selvaria's, but if a melee heavy team still has to reach her, does it really matter? She's still getting several volleys off on fighters that aren't equipped to cope with it.
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"Eet's game time..."
https://soundcloud.com/luissera/intro/s-VvkMJ

Sonic as disruption as a solid plan, but remember the point of that isn't how many ways Juliet & co can kill him (if they can tag him). It's all the free damage Lara and Selvaria are laying down from a distance whilst Sonic is zipping around them
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"Eet's game time..."
https://soundcloud.com/luissera/intro/s-VvkMJ

Selvaria obviously draws the eye, but lets not forget Lara has some pretty significant range as well. Alice is going to have a very hard time avoiding explosive arrows given her blinks only last for a split second, and that isn't the kind of projectile Juliet can parry either.
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"Eet's game time..."
https://soundcloud.com/luissera/intro/s-VvkMJ

When near death she will enter Hysteria mode for 20 seconds, but only once.
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"Eet's game time..."
https://soundcloud.com/luissera/intro/s-VvkMJ

Alice is a nuisance for sure, but she's effectively being asked to solo, since the rest of her team is having a rough time getting close. She also doesn't have the benefit of buffs like Selvaria's team does. She merits her upkeep, but besting a buffed Selvaria (not to mention the other three team members) is too much of an ask.
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"Eet's game time..."
https://soundcloud.com/luissera/intro/s-VvkMJ

Outside of the odd trench and section of ruins, Barious Desert is a mostly open expanse - so really Selvaria can just go to town here. She's a clear step above anyone else in terms of ranged options, as well as combat in general. Alice has some range, but it isn't really on the same level. She also has the best support in Master of Magic i.e. GameFAQs Tifa.

That's probably enough by itself, but in Lara there's the only other 'real' guns in the match, on a terrain that favours that kind of combat.

Sonic has... a lot of space to run around in?
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"Eet's game time..."
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Tallon Overworld 1

HM: Crashed Ship Frigate Orpheon
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"Eet's game time..."
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What are you people even talking about. There's nothing to suggest D.Va doesn't start in her MEKA.
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"Eet's game time..."
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Sonic takes Tifa as his assist.

Selvaria KO's a heroic threat to her liege, Aigis.

Done.
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"Eet's game time..."
https://soundcloud.com/luissera/intro/s-VvkMJ

Sonic steals the Epoch
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"Eet's game time..."
https://soundcloud.com/luissera/intro/s-VvkMJ

Bring down Selvaria
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"Eet's game time..."
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I will attack.

5 EXP on Flynn character upgrade, unlocking it.
15 EXP on Dizzy's Trigger, unlocking it.
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"Eet's game time..."
https://soundcloud.com/luissera/intro/s-VvkMJ

Cochise
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"Eet's game time..."
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https://youtu.be/52Axf4LP2A0?t=32m50s

To give a better idea of the lightning bolts, that plane is in the air for a while once the storm clouds start gathering and it's targeted by the lightning. Jumping probably wouldn't suffice.
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"Eet's game time..."
https://soundcloud.com/luissera/intro/s-VvkMJ

Wanglicious posted...

KanzarisKelshen posted...

Lara Croft is as she appears in Tomb Raider (2013), with all of her character upgrades, as well as fully upgraded dual Magnum Pistols, Competition Bow, Combat Shotgun, WWII SMG and Climbing Axe. Walls do not necessarily have to be comprised of craggy rock for Lara to be able to scale them.

more info on this please.

It's this:

http://pm1.narvii.com/5909/63c69f559f43450e6b10b4ecd1ebf2d70610fc3c_hq.jpg

She uses it to scale walls and as her makeshift melee weapon. There's also an occasion in-game where gales become so strong that she sticks it in the ground and hangs on to avoid being blown away.
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"Eet's game time..."
https://soundcloud.com/luissera/intro/s-VvkMJ

Nilin's athletic and does a good deal of parkour and awkward terrain navigation in her game, but never in the kind of conditions in play here. Remember Me is a totally urban environment. It's stable. This is the rocky outdoors in wild weather, which Lara demonstrates surviving.
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"Eet's game time..."
https://soundcloud.com/luissera/intro/s-VvkMJ

Jumping is probably fine. Any prolonged flight is what gets zapped (such as planes and helicopters in Tomb Raider).
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"Eet's game time..."
https://soundcloud.com/luissera/intro/s-VvkMJ

First off, this is the Green Hill Zone in question:



It's long, narrow, and much of it is at a high elevation. Thanks to Survivor, it's also subject to an incredibly fierce storm, and is gradually falling apart. On a normal day, it would take any non-Sonic merc here HOURS to find the other team, given how many miles it is from start to finish on difficult to navigate terrain for non-platformers. Under Survivor conditions? It's a pretty safe bet that neither team is meeting the other during the course of the fight. So rather than a fight, I think this becomes a case of who survives the terrain the longest. No-one in the match can fly, so falling off the terrain would be game over for anyone (even if they survived the fall, they wouldn't be able to get back up to carry on the fight). There may only be two of them compared to five, but I also think Sonic and Lara are the best equipped to outlast everyone else.

Starting with Sonic, he's a platform character on his own turf who already routinely deals with bizarre, uneven terrain. His SSB4 moveset helps his jumping ability a lot here, and his speed running into the wind cancels out the force of it. If the chunk of land he's on begins to fall away, he shouldn't have much difficulty navigating himself to a safer area.

As for Lara, there are several segments of the Tomb Raider reboot where she has to scramble through disintegrating terrain in difficult conditions to safety. Examples include here:



You can skip to 6:10 and 10:30 for notable parts if you want. Also here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vgaiC9Tegg&spfreload=10

From the beginning. She has the strength, agility and quick wits to adapt to rapidly changing situations and avoid dying. Even when the ground beneath her gives way she finds a way to survive.

Additionally, I think it's kind of a benefit that Sonic and Lara are outnumbered here. They only have each other to worry about and help survive, compared to any of the other team that have four other people to think of. It's easier for two to communicate and work together as a team under challenging circumstances.



tl;dr - If you only take away two things from this - the terrain is long enough and volatile enough that the two teams will never meet in combat; and Sonic and Lara are the two best characters here to survive a collapsing Green Hill Zone.
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"Eet's game time..."
https://soundcloud.com/luissera/intro/s-VvkMJ

Today is a good day to be O&S when you don't immediately come to mind in this category.
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"Eet's game time..."
https://soundcloud.com/luissera/intro/s-VvkMJ

Fox routinely 1v4's Star Wolf when they're using technically better craft than him. I don't see him losing a 1v1+1.
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"Eet's game time..."
https://soundcloud.com/luissera/intro/s-VvkMJ

Monk Agnès absolutely would have gotten revenge given the chance last week.
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"Eet's game time..."
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Lara uses Survivor, enhanced version.

Done.
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"Eet's game time..."
https://soundcloud.com/luissera/intro/s-VvkMJ

I'll be the attacker.

I'll also swap out Agnès for Lara.

5 EXP on Selvaria's first upgrade, unlocking it.
10 EXP on Morrigan's Trigger ability, unlocking it.
5 EXP on disabling Dizzy's passive when an ally is KO'd or hit with a damaging ability from an enemy merc, unlocking it.
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"Eet's game time..."
https://soundcloud.com/luissera/intro/s-VvkMJ

Even Flow
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"Eet's game time..."
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I should also have 2 more GP as I didn't roster Flynn.
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Juliet is straight up one of the best 3/weeks in the game. Borderline 4/week.
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"Eet's game time..."
https://soundcloud.com/luissera/intro/s-VvkMJ

I don't think she even really needs laser blasts, the Rhum is just a more efficient choice for taking out unarmoured infantry, which is exactly how a martial artist and archer appear. Between them they have no form of healing or damage mitigation, so any damage is sticking, and with the Rhum being shockingly accurate for the firepower it possesses over long range, I don't see a way of them getting close enough unscathed.
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"Eet's game time..."
https://soundcloud.com/luissera/intro/s-VvkMJ

#FE only draws from FE1 and Awakening for units, so it was either Virion or someone like Jeorg. Mostly right time, right place I guess.
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"Eet's game time..."
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He can't heal the wound, otherwise he wouldn't be able to lose blood. I don't see what's vague about that. And I'd have thought the wound would be the size of the diameter of a lightsaber. He's been stabbed through his stomach, which implies impalement. That's at least the most likely conclusion to draw from it anyway. Just nicking him with it seems a little silly.
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"Eet's game time..."
https://soundcloud.com/luissera/intro/s-VvkMJ

Drakeryn posted...

KanzarisKelshen posted...

Ellie can both stealth for a first strike and stun Selvaria (Overload inflicts turn delay, making it so the enemy takes no action for a bit, and is Almighty type, so combined with her Pierce skill it has major cred to pierce defenses too, which is important because usually Selvaria no-sells like a boss).

How does Ellie's stealth work? Mewtwo says "lowers her chance of being attacked" which...doesn't sound all that impressive. Like mechanics to control a boss's aggro.

Also I feel like this is a bad terrain for stealth, being boggy and squishy and all. honk honk honk

In-game it reduces the 'threat level' of the character who uses it, making enemies less likely to attack them over other party members. So I guess it makes her less conspicuous? Your mileage may vary since it's a weird thing to parse in a realtime fight.
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"Eet's game time..."
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KanzarisKelshen posted...

Luis_Sera89 posted...

Like I say, I'm not claiming Jaesa to be a real combat threat whilst drunk, but it isn't hard for her to aid Selvaria with her support skills. Selvaria is a brigadier general; she knows how to lead an army. It's absolutely in her personality to just tell Jaesa what to do, which can be as simple as healing her and pushing back anyone who gets close. She's drunk, not deaf or incompetent.

Is it in Jaesa's personality to act that way though? I'll have to go look at her conversations because this is what I saw in the page I used when remaking her writeup:

Likes: Random cruelty, secrets of the Force, murder and chaos
Dislikes: Honor, mercy, helping people

I need some backing here that she'll lend a hand to Selvaria when drunk. Maybe something from her storyline to sell it?

That's true, random acts of kindness are a no-no, but it's also true that she's incredibly loyal to her allies and devoted to her master, which is true of light-side Jaesa as well, so it isn't even a romantic interest thing (which is dark-side only). That's even what her upgrade ability stems from.
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"Eet's game time..."
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I don't even think he bleeds out quick enough that he'd die before the teams meet, but the fact is that bold text Mercs magic has him with a hole in his stomach and blood pouring out. Incurably so. Nanomachines can be as useful as usual from in-battle damage, but there's nothing he can do about that wound that will kill him.
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"Eet's game time..."
https://soundcloud.com/luissera/intro/s-VvkMJ

Like I say, I'm not claiming Jaesa to be a real combat threat whilst drunk, but it isn't hard for her to aid Selvaria with her support skills. Selvaria is a brigadier general; she knows how to lead an army. It's absolutely in her personality to just tell Jaesa what to do, which can be as simple as healing her and pushing back anyone who gets close. She's drunk, not deaf or incompetent.
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"Eet's game time..."
https://soundcloud.com/luissera/intro/s-VvkMJ

Here is a helpful map of the terrain, since the number of people who played SW:TOR probably number in the single digits.

http://www.ddmsrealm.com/wp-content/gallery/tor-hutta/ddmsrealm-star-wars-tor-hutta-map.jpg

It's roughly the bottom left quadrant, minus the palace, as far north as the cantina and as far east as the work camp. Team Armstrong begin roughly where it says 'Jiguuna', whereas Selvaria/Jaesa are in the cavern you can see to the southwest of 'The Harvester' enemy (the little door).

Here are a couple of images of what the lay of the land looks like:

http://www.ddmsrealm.com/wp-content/gallery/tor-hutta/ddmsrealm-star-wars-hutta-m-78-the-harvester.jpg

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/swtor/images/8/8b/Screen04_800x450_hutta.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/670?cb=20100919073421

It's very boggy underfoot, and kind of difficult to get anywhere quickly, as you're either slowed by mud, or taking the long way around along sporadic islands.

As for my opinion on the match, whilst my team has one less person, Selvaria is by far the strongest combatant here, with the superior ranged options on a terrain where melee is hampered. This is thanks in no small part to the fact that Armstrong has a hole going through his gut. His typical method of durability, hardening his skin, is a preventative measure that won't help here, and whilst regenerative nanomachines will possibly slow his eventual death, it's still a huge anchor on his normal robust combat style. He won't be able to move around as much without worsening his wound and losing blood faster.

Simply put, Selvaria can lay the damage down at range with her infamous 'sniper machine gun' and lance blasts. Ryu can't get close, and Ellie would generally be more effective at midrange. A gored Armstrong can't hope to beat an untouched Selvaria really.

Jaesa being drunk certainly isn't ideal, but she's far from useless. She can still be able back-up to Selvaria, healing her and providing shields if necessary. Her dps is pretty great too - hopefully it'll be more relevant in future fights!

https://torcommunity.com/database/companion/aCkSzGB/jaesa+willsaam/

That link has her skills. In addition to that she also demonstrates the use of force telekinesis, so in the unlikely event Armstrong gets close enough, she can even push him back.
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"Eet's game time..."
https://soundcloud.com/luissera/intro/s-VvkMJ