Stock Topic 33

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The crazy bull market is gone. Fears of a bear market are here. But maybe it was just another bad September.
I'm probably going to take some money out. A third of my net worth is in the stock market. And if I'm ultimately doing this to buy a condo, and I'm expecting an income drop next year, maybe I should pause purchases of stocks and start selling on green days if there are any more. Hopefully we're not going into a bear market.
<D
We will see in the next few weeks. Septembers are usually bad so lets see how October fares.
I feel like a lot of the risk can be mitigated by stop losses in any case.

Actually with selling puts it kinda cant in a lot of situations (gap down AH you can't buy options back AH) which is why I'm a bit worried for Moonroof using them in a dumb way
No problem!
This is a cute and pop genocide of love!
Anyway, Crypto has made a nice comeback. I kick myself for having not sold BTC back at $52,000 but thats part of the game. What was worse was RIOT crushing me, now that was a good example of misusing the selling of puts.
Im currently 100% stocks for the record. I wanted to swing trade crypto but putting money in and out of Coinbase is an endeavor as it takes a week before the funds settle, and by then the crypto probably went up.
I don't know why Moonroof is so defensive about doing dumb stuff. Just admit its dumb and say you're going to do it anyway.

I also don't know why people care so much. Just let him do what he wants. I just am not going to feel bad at all when he loses a lot of money from one bad trade.
DPOblivion beat us all.
Everybody, including yourself, is secretly envious that I simplified the game but are too self-righteous to emulate me.
FAMI making a comeback.
I've always said, it doesn't matter if you're right or wrong, the benefit is your bank account.

If you listen to Buffett, you don't want to diversify because it means you don't trust yourself. Personally I like to be diversified because I don't trust myself :)

Donny: Are they gonna hurt us, Walter?
Walter: No, Donny. These men are cowards.
neonreaper posted...
If you listen to Buffett, you don't want to diversify because it means you don't trust yourself

That's not true, you don't want to overdiversify if you listen to him. He's definitely not saying you should all in on one stock.
DPOblivion beat us all.
I actually don't diversify much. 95% of my portfolio consists of FAMI, FUBO, DNN, HA, and ANY.

But like with his strategy(?) I absolutely would because the cost of doing so is 0. Selling a ton of puts is always better to spread around unless you're doing it on something with a particularly lucrative premium you can't get somewhere else.
No problem!
This is a cute and pop genocide of love!
Colegreen_c12 posted...
That's not true, you don't want to overdiversify if you listen to him. He's definitely not saying you should all in on one stock.

really hope we can move past this moonroof discussion if this is what we're doing...
Donny: Are they gonna hurt us, Walter?
Walter: No, Donny. These men are cowards.
neonreaper posted...
really hope we can move past this moonroof discussion if this is what we're doing...

I mean you post something completely misrepresenting warren buffet what do you expect
DPOblivion beat us all.
neonreaper posted...
really hope we can move past this moonroof discussion if this is what we're doing...

Agreed. I never asked for this and have been trying to ignore it.
To allocation discussion, I'm pretty much 100% crypto. Got a grand in Robinhood to join in on some of these equity plays though.

Also did a quick check on my net gainz since it's been a lot of DCA and a little bit of shuffling. 2020 dollars have yielded an 8-bagger so far awwwww yeah. Chase's search and filter functionality is hot garbage so I think I'll have to wait until tax time to look at this year. Can't even export debits to a csv to do it myself U_U
If there is one thing I know, it is that I know nothing.
Listen if you want to make 1k weekly while risking 330k on a gap down and think that's okay then whatever.

But if you diversified and picked strikes closer to at the money you could make like 4k weekly with less risk .
No problem!
This is a cute and pop genocide of love!
Strikes closer to the price is MORE risk!
I guess if Moonroof wants the risk profile he wants, that's his personal preference. I hope he never has the misfortune of going all in on a Lehman Brothers or Enron or Luckin Coffee the day before the fraud announcement. Or at least if it happens, that he feels okay after losing millions of dollars (I do expect his portfolio to be in the millions before he hits that super unlucky event) in one blow.
September 1, 2003; November 4, 2007; September 2, 2013
Congratulations to DP Oblivion in the Guru Contest!
red sox 777 posted...
I guess if Moonroof wants the risk profile he wants, that's his personal preference. I hope he never has the misfortune of going all in on a Lehman Brothers or Enron or Luckin Coffee the day before the fraud announcement. Or at least if it happens, that he feels okay after losing millions of dollars (I do expect his portfolio to be in the millions before he hits that super unlucky event) in one blow.

I mean the fastest way to double your money is a roulette table
You have a higher chance of being assigned but because you're diversified the assignment usually doesn't matter as much. You just sell a call at the strike you were assigned the next week, and the ones that expire worthless do so at many times more the premium.

For instance to use Disney as your example.

You could sell the Oct 8 $167.5 put at $0.57 right now (I believe this what you sold)
Or you could sell the Oct 8 $172.5 put at $1.78 right now

Now here's the thing, if you sell at the $172.5 strike, you only need to put down about 1/3 amount of capital to make the same amount of money

If you use the remaining 2/3 capital to sell puts on other things, you have increased protection on Disney randomly tanking $20 (which could totally happen without a catastrophic event) and you could actually make more money from your sold puts as you would make more money from selling puts on other stocks as well.
No problem!
This is a cute and pop genocide of love!
masterplum posted...
I mean the fastest way to double your money is a roulette table

Although potentially fast, that's way less likely to actually accomplish the doubling though. At a roulette table, your probability of doubling your money is going to be below 50% no matter what strategy you use. Moonroof's strategy is very likely to double his money on a timescale of a small number of years. It's positive EV.
September 1, 2003; November 4, 2007; September 2, 2013
Congratulations to DP Oblivion in the Guru Contest!
How about squatting at the Pai Gow table and arbitrage trading the free drinks?
If there is one thing I know, it is that I know nothing.
red sox 777 posted...
Although potentially fast, that's way less likely to actually accomplish the doubling though. At a roulette table, your probability of doubling your money is going to be below 50% no matter what strategy you use. Moonroof's strategy is very likely to double his money on a timescale of a small number of years. It's positive EV.

It's actually not likely to double his money all that soon with his current taste for risk.

$330k puts into Disney here we go. $167.50 strike next Friday, got around $1200 for it.

330000/1200 = 275.

He'd double his money in around 4-5 years if never assigned. In the grand scheme of things it's not that long, but consider the price only has to drop by about 5% for him in any given week to actually be assigned the shares which would further limit his profit potential.

Then you consider the possibility of a medium sized gap down on DIS in that time in a given week potentially costing him a ton of money (if it drops even just 15%, he'd be assigned a bunch of $167.50 shares when the stock is around $150, then likely panic sell at $150 or panic buy back the puts and eat a huge loss limiting him further still)

I do honestly believe SPY or QQQ and forget it would give overall more money.
No problem!
This is a cute and pop genocide of love!
Lopen posted...
It's actually not likely to double his money all that soon with his current taste for risk.

$330k puts into Disney here we go. $167.50 strike next Friday, got around $1200 for it.

330000/1200 = 275.

He'd double his money in around 4-5 years if never assigned. In the grand scheme of things it's not that long, but consider the price only has to drop by about 5% for him in any given week to actually be assigned the shares which would further limit his profit potential.

Then you consider the possibility of a medium sized gap down on DIS in that time in a given week potentially costing him a ton of money (if it drops even just 15%, he'd be assigned a bunch of $167.50 shares when the stock is around $150, then likely panic sell at $150 or panic buy back the puts and eat a huge loss limiting him further still)

I do honestly believe SPY or QQQ and forget it would give overall more money.

Yeah, but that's only part of Moonroof's strategy. About twice a year he goes all in on some risky stock (AMC, DISCB). Those plays are generating the majority of his returns, not the put selling.
September 1, 2003; November 4, 2007; September 2, 2013
Congratulations to DP Oblivion in the Guru Contest!
That being said I do think selling weekly puts at close to the strike is a strong strategy, if you believe in the stock(s).

You triple the premium on those puts and now he's doubling his money in less than two years. Being assigned on a 15% drop at $167.50 vs $172.50 is about the same result, but you're rapidly offsetting the cost with your tripled premiums. Just in one week alone you basically risk $1 less of stock price.

Stock price of $167.50 vs $172.50 isn't a huge deal in the grand scheme of things if you believe it goes up long term. If you get assigned at some value between $167.50 and $172.50, you can sell calls the next week at $172.50 and make a lot of money still.

BUT now change it from getting ~$4000 from sold puts on Disney and Disney alone, and change it to a wide selection of stocks (only 5-10 would make a lot of difference) that are unlikely to all go down at the same time, and you make more long term with less risk.
No problem!
This is a cute and pop genocide of love!
red sox 777 posted...
About twice a year he goes all in on some risky stock (AMC, DISCB). Those plays are generating the majority of his returns, not the put selling.

Those plays are actually not that much more safe than the roulette table though. Just because he hit black twice in a row doesn't make it smart.
No problem!
This is a cute and pop genocide of love!
Going to plow town
I actually like that Lopen, selling at a higher strike but putting in less money and then using the remaining money elsewhere.
Red sox you always crack me up with your robotically accurate assessments lol
Lopen posted...
Those plays are actually not that much more safe than the roulette table though. Just because he hit black twice in a row doesn't make it smart.

There's all sorts of strategies you can employ to change the risk profile of the roulette table. You just can't change the fact that it's negative EV. For instance, you can completely eliminate risk at roulette by betting an equal amount on every single number, including the zeroes. Then you will have a guaranteed loss of a fixed amount each spin. Of course you probably aren't interested in a small guaranteed loss every spin, but you could have that if you wanted.
September 1, 2003; November 4, 2007; September 2, 2013
Congratulations to DP Oblivion in the Guru Contest!
That's my whole point of this tirade yeah

Selling puts that timidly with such huge amounts of cash just seems like lose-lose to me. Picking a further out of the money put lowers risk but then putting down triple the cash more than offsets the lowered risk.

Either sell less puts and hold cash to sink into a play when the market gives you an opportunity (or average down on sold puts when assigned) or sell puts on more things. Both give you more money overall with less risk imo.
No problem!
This is a cute and pop genocide of love!
red sox 777 posted...
You just can't change the fact that it's negative EV. For instance, you can completely eliminate risk at roulette by betting an equal amount on every single number, including the zeroes. Then you will have a guaranteed loss of a fixed amount each spin. Of course you probably aren't interested in a small guaranteed loss every spin, but you could have that if you wanted.

My point is I think that his yolo moves are -EV given his taste for risk and patience to hold if they don't immediately pan out. Calling them betting on black is not accurate to the risk profile BUT for instance we could say they were doing something like

20% on ODD
20% on 13-24
20% on BLACK
20% on 1-18
Remaining 20% split evenly with equal amounts into each number.

Then gloating when he hits Black 13 and Black 17 on two spins (despite the play being -EV you make 60% + 40% + 40% + 40% + ~20% = a bit less than 200% on each of those)

But say he hit Red 32 and Red 18 instead on those two spins he would not go to zero despite coming close to being completely off, but he would lose a significant amount of money. He'd have 0% + 10% + 0% + 10% + 20% or about 40% of original investment.

I don't know the exact spread but you get what I'm saying. It can be -EV and still appear to work if you start hot.
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This is a cute and pop genocide of love!
I definitely am not a gloater, certainly no more than anyone else when they get a good gain. In fact, everyone here does a good job building each other up whenever someone gets a big gain.
Well I'm just trying to give you advice on how to better execute ideas you're attempting to use (because you're doing them inefficiently and some of them are good ideas) and you're saying "LOL FEAR MY 10% GAINZ" so I don't know what that is if it's not gloating!
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This is a cute and pop genocide of love!
I havent ever said anything in that way. Ill share my outcomes, good and bad, as a means of transparency which is the entire point of these topics.
I think Moonroof brings a lot of interesting perspectives here. I think he's really onto something important with his idea about investing strategy changing as the total amount of money increases. And I hope he actually does that and reduces risk as his portfolio grows.
September 1, 2003; November 4, 2007; September 2, 2013
Congratulations to DP Oblivion in the Guru Contest!
Moonroof posted...
I actually like that Lopen, selling at a higher strike but putting in less money and then using the remaining money elsewhere.

That is literally all we've been saying the whole time about diversifying.

Even if you are doing do set far-from-strike prices you're better served by doing it in 4 places rather than just the 1.
Forceful_Dragon posted...
That is literally all we've been saying the whole time about diversifying.

Even if you are doing do set far-from-strike prices you're better served by doing it in 4 places rather than just the 1.

True, but I also think far from at the money strikes are borderline not worth doing unless you're dabbling in a super volatile stock. Probably just owning the stock and doing way out of the money covered calls would net you more money. I also think far from at the money strikes don't really get you much functional safety whereas diversifying does

Basically boils down to the whole point of selling a put is you don't mind having the stock so it's optimal to maximize your money obtained from doing so. If you're just playing chicken hoping you WON'T get assigned then you should probably play a different stock.
No problem!
This is a cute and pop genocide of love!
I have to say, the last week the market has been pretty red.
September 1, 2003; November 4, 2007; September 2, 2013
Congratulations to DP Oblivion in the Guru Contest!
red sox 777 posted...
I have to say, the last week the market has been pretty red.

o ya go my KRBN
If there is one thing I know, it is that I know nothing.
I was so happy that I was up two grand a few weeks ago and now ice basically broken even.
<D
I am beginning to suspect that a lot of savvy investors are starting to pull out of the stock market and putting into crypto while they watch and wait to see how the supply chain issues pan out. I think we might see another Bitcoin ATH in the next month.
You could be right. Annoyed I sold mine but relented to not be looking at it every second.
You realize you could allocate only a portion of your portfolio to crypto.
And even within the portion you could allocate more than one type of cryptocurrency.
Heck, I own less than $10 worth (even though I bought $10 of) Dogecoin and Ethereum! That's a tiny portion of my portfolio!
<D
Moonroof posted...
You could be right. Annoyed I sold mine but relented to not be looking at it every second.

aww man.
Donny: Are they gonna hurt us, Walter?
Walter: No, Donny. These men are cowards.
crypto market looking very much like Jan-Feb
See you on the moon, brothers
Donny: Are they gonna hurt us, Walter?
Walter: No, Donny. These men are cowards.
I wonder why RIOT isnt following Bitcoin.
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