Is it disrespectful to choose not to divulge your own pronouns?

hockeybabe89 posted...

It doesn't matter how many times you say it. They'll keep going "It's obvious what my pronouns are, so I'm not the one who needs to share" and "I'm not comfortable sharing".

I thought the point of pronouns was to prevent misgendering.

If I look like a guy, then I probably dont need to say anything.

If you maybe dont present as one, its helpful to put pronouns so that nobody misgenders.

I feel like youre looking at things with a negative lense.

Its not that big of a deal.

Though I much more understand the stance of if everyone does it, then it makes it easier for trans folks to do it without feeling awkward.

But seeing as this topic is immediately thinking right winger when it comes to this, I feel like maybe yall are talking about a specific demographic.

FolkenRawr posted...

Of all the topics ever made, this is certainly one of them.

With how stupidly that other topic went this somehow became a genuine question.

cuttin_in_farm posted...

Though I much more understand the stance of if everyone does it, then it makes it easier for trans folks to do it without feeling awkward.

But seeing as this topic is immediately thinking right winger when it comes to this, I feel like maybe yall are talking about a specific demographic.

That's the whole point. If only trans and NB people do it, it's like yelling "Hey look at me! Treat me differently!" Most people don't want that. That's why the idea is that everyone does it in these spaces.

And no one needs to do a poll to know that the average anti-pronoun argument is not coming from non-conforming people genuinely afraid of outing themselves in public. Those people exist and have a legitimate reason. But the right-wing outrage machine is the only reason this "controversy" got blasted into public consciousness. I'm not even sure what the anger from the right is. Are trans people going to harvest their pronouns if they speak them?

hockeybabe89 posted...

That's the whole point. If only trans and NB people do it, it's like yelling "Hey look at me! Treat me differently!" Most people don't want that. That's why the idea is that everyone does it in these spaces.

And no one needs to do a poll to know that the average anti-pronoun argument is not coming from non-conforming people genuinely afraid of outing themselves in public. Those people exist and have a legitimate reason. But the right-wing outrage machine is the only reason this "controversy" got blasted into public consciousness. I'm not even sure what the anger from the right is. Are trans people going to harvest their pronouns if they speak them?

I feel like the average person doesnt care or is ignorant. Not anti-trans. Personally.

Dunno if the topic at a whole agrees.

Like, to a cis person. Being asked pronouns comes off as youre questioning their appearance. You dont go on a date and ask, Hey, are you a woman?

That doesnt tend to go well. Some people just think if they present as a gender, they dont need to do anything else.

Its self-interested. Because by nature, they dont care how it makes trans folk feel. But I wouldnt say its innately malicious or anything.

But if youre going to an event that is like, focused or has a cause surrounding trans people. Its a bit of a dick move to not put your pronouns.

No, just don't be disrespectful to others about it.

hockeybabe89 posted...

So I take it you never use pronouns for anyone? Since you have a big heart and don't want to accidentally out them?

Why wouldn't I use them? I make an inferred guess based on their presentation, like most people would. It isn't the end of the world if I'm wrong.

Then most people can write them down no problem. I don't see very many people withholding their first name when prompted. Pronouns are no different.

They are different, though. I don't have any issue with identifying socially/publicly by my legal name. But I don't identify with any particular gender, which means I also don't identify with any particular pronoun.

If the fact that I don't care what I'm called and have nothing meaningful to put in a "pronoun" field on a name tag makes trans/LGBT people uncomfortable somehow, tough shit. I am not obligated to have a preferred pronoun, and nobody else is entitled to the information even if I did, either. They are going to need to find some other way to derive their "comfort" from that doesn't involve infringing upon my own.

Philip027 posted...

They are different, though. I don't have any issue with identifying socially/publicly by my legal name. But I don't identify with any particular gender, which means I also don't identify with any particular pronoun.

If the fact that I don't care what I'm called and have nothing meaningful to put in a "pronoun" field on a name tag makes trans/LGBT people uncomfortable somehow, tough shit. I am not obligated to have a preferred pronoun, and nobody else is entitled to the information even if I did, either. They are going to need to find some other way to derive their "comfort" from that doesn't involve infringing upon my own.

Why are you taking this so personal? I clearly laid out the unique case of people who are non-conforming and uncomfortable. You are not the average person who raises a stink over pronouns. The average person thinks their pronouns are "obvious" yet they won't share them, but they also won't get mad if you assume their pronouns correctly. But you goddamn know that a cis woman who acts like that will be mad if you start calling her "he/him"

Cis people who feel violated by being asked their pronouns should also stop using their names. That is personal info that no one has a right to ask for, so they should protect it. And they need to start being outraged if we use their pronouns without their consent. Otherwise, their strong feelings are clear bullshit, a smoke screen for their real agenda.

hockeybabe89 posted...

Why are you taking this so personal?

hockeybabe89 posted...

Why can't you just write down the goddamn pronouns you know you are regularly referred to as and stop being weird?

That's why.

I would respect someone's decision to not divulge their pronouns just as much as I would respect someone who wrote down pronouns that appear to be different from what "tradition" would make me think they were.

I look at pronouns no different than a nickname, in the respect that if I meet someone named Michael, but they say "I prefer to go by the name Mike" I'm not going to yell "NO YOU WERE BORN MICHAEL! I'M GOING TO CALL YOU MICHAEL NO MATTER WHAT YOU TELL ME!!!"

hockeybabe89 posted...

Why are you taking this so personal? I clearly laid out the unique case of people who are non-conforming and uncomfortable. You are not the average person who raises a stink over pronouns. The average person thinks their pronouns are "obvious" yet they won't share them, but they also won't get mad if you assume their pronouns correctly. But you goddamn know that a cis woman who acts like that will be mad if you start calling her "he/him"

Cis people who feel violated by being asked their pronouns should also stop using their names. That is personal info that no one has a right to ask for, so they should protect it. And they need to start being outraged if we use their pronouns without their consent. Otherwise, their strong feelings are clear bullshit, a smoke screen for their real agenda.

My BIL, who's gay, has kind of an opposite take on it.

He feels the need to pre-announce your pronouns hurts the movement. He feels like people should make the assumption, and they can be corrected if necessary. Kinda like how if someone has a non-common name that can easily be mispronounced, they politely correct them, and that person either corrects their behavior, or chooses to proactively not conform.

He's the kind of person that longs for the day when people no longer have to "come out" or "identify themselves".

Hypnospace posted...

Then just write "any".

Which is pretty much exactly what I said I would do in the original topic posing this scenario, and yet it got the response that you see here in #58. So clearly that isn't sufficient for some people, but like I said, too damn bad.

Nope

to 500 again

mario2000 posted...

to 500 again

How dare you bump?!!!
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