Ye, as a deckbuilding rougelite Inscryption is just okay. The base game is 100% a classic that everyone should play, but that is because of a lot of things that are lost in the mod.What's top 10 for you?
And Balatro isn't in the top 10 for deckbuilders, still good though.
What's top 10 for you?Oh god, that's a hard one. Besides the #1, which is so much better than the alternatives that it is basically on a different plane of existence from the rest, I don't know if I really have a "locked in" order in that vein. In a generic sense I'd go with:
Oh god, that's a hard one. Besides the #1, which is so much better than the alternatives that it is basically on a different plane of existence from the rest, I don't know if I really have a "locked in" order in that vein. In a generic sense I'd go with:
1. Shandalar. Duh. Anyone who has played it understands why a full RPG Rougelite deckbuillder is something we desperately need and why it sits in a league of its own.
2. Across the Obelisk. Extremely complex card system with a super engrossing story-like structure. Far and away the best unlock system for characters in the genre and just generally hits all of the best notes (minus the one overpriced DLC).
3. Pokemon TCG. Yes the Gameboy game. It does basically everything right for what it set out to do. It is a part of the big Pokmon craze for a reason. You can kind of lump TCG2 in this spot as well as it's a bit harder to rate due to not being quite as freeform but still largely being an upgraded version of the first.
4. Cross Blitz. Still in early access so it could end up being a dud, but from what was there it has one of the better set-ups in terms of being fast and easy to get into while also having really good depth when you start to understand how to break the system.
5. Griftlands. They really failed the landing so the game has been knocked down in the standings (in my eyes) when it left early access. Still one of the better takes on the formula.
6. Slay the Spire. The one that really popularized the genre for good reason. It's the gold standard for the genre.
7. I Was a Teenage Exocolonist. This one is probably the furthest from the genre by a country mile as the card portion of it is weak compared to the others, but being eclectic and highly unique isn't a bad thing and the story and replayability is definitely there.
8. Signs of the Sojourner. Probably the best one to highlight about how I don't think that StS is the be-all, end-all for the genre. Having your deck be your characer's personality and the game themed as you holding conversations with other people is highly novel and fresh. At the same time it doesn't go as hard as Inscryption on the "this game can only really be played only once" that I view as a core requirement for the genre (hence why Inscryption doesn't show up on the list despite being the best here outside of Shandalar).
9. Monster Train. It largely just comes across as Slay the Spire-, but its intrinsic charm and unique (in the genre) gameplay keep it pretty fresh.
10. Deep Sky Derelicts. A bit awkward in that this one is the least compelling to do a second run in out of all of the Rougelites I've ever played, but the first run is one of the strongest and if you're into the genre then it can definitely do it for you if you're into the space-grunge theming.
As said, this really isn't that stock of a list and there are several that could easily make it in based on how I felt on a particular day (Banners of Ruin for an example). Heck, Balatro could make it in depending on how I felt at the time, I just don't think it's such an easy shoe-in like I would for anything in the top 7 of my list (which basically would always make it in no matter how I was feeling in particular). In that same vein it also depends on how I was going at them as the ability to "just play forever" is a lot less important to me than having several runs be as fun as possible. Something like Signs of the Sojourner, for instance, you really don't have any real value in playing forever as the core system just doesn't facilitate that. However, the gameplay is just too fun for the couple of times that you are doing something wholly unique outweighs that fact in my mind. Life is short, don't stick to one game forever just because it is designed that way.
are deck builders one of the few high saturation, high average sales indie genre out there??I would say they're hard to make. As a base comparison there are 730 cards in Slay the Spire (quick google search). Split that into fourths since there are 4 classes so about 183 cards per class. Do you think you have the capability to make 183 fair and balanced cards for their rarity that also seem fun and help make different synergies and enable multiple play styles? If so then you can go ahead and make one.
I see non-devs talking about them all the time, so I'm wondering if I should make one some day.
I won't deny Shandalar is probably one of the better deck builders that exist. But I wouldn't count it as a rogue lite deckbuilder. Same with pokemon TCG. Although both are great deckbuilders.Both are absolutely Rougelites. They both have you start with a generic base-line that you make better through random cards you obtain through the game until you make it to the end. The main difference between them and something like StS is that they are fully developed card games, something that isn't relevant as a part of the Rougelites as a genre (see Hearthstone's game mode for an obvious example of that as an undenyable Rougelite), and the fact that they don't force you to have a limited run and instead give you an open world to run around in. However, Shandalar doesn't have a single pre-defined aspect and is arguably a *lot* closer to Rouge than Slay the Spire is for it. It creates a randomized world for you to run around in, with randomized towns and randomized quests, and if you want to get the best stuff you have to go into randomized dungeons. If Shandalar isn't a Rougelite then literally nothing in this topic is. Pokemon TCG there is a bit better of an argument against, but considering just how many randomized elements are there if you do a limited battles run (ie. no grinding) then you are exactly ending up with the gameplay feel and style of something like StS. Just with more the ability to "extend your run" by grinding. It is as opposed to something like Card City Nights where there is no randomized power increases and everything is set in stone outside of the Triple Triad-esque card game actually playing out.
It's interesting what you think of Signs of the Sojourner, but say that Griftlands failed their landing. How did it fail? I thought it was pretty cool.
I was honestly just trying to see a gauge of roguelite deck builders that you had in mind more so than deckbuilders is why I originally asked. Not your fault, it's on me for not being clear. I've just been on a binge for roguelite deckbuilders and was curious to see what else there was. I played the ones listed so far.
Both are absolutely Rougelites. They both have you start with a generic base-line that you make better through random cards you obtain through the game until you make it to the end. The main difference between them and something like StS is that they are fully developed card games, something that isn't relevant as a part of the Rougelites as a genre (see Hearthstone's game mode for an obvious example of that as an undenyable Rougelite), and the fact that they don't force you to have a limited run and instead give you an open world to run around in. However, Shandalar doesn't have a single pre-defined aspect and is arguably a *lot* closer to Rouge than Slay the Spire is for it. It creates a randomized world for you to run around in, with randomized towns and randomized quests, and if you want to get the best stuff you have to go into randomized dungeons. If Shandalar isn't a Rougelite then literally nothing in this topic is. Pokemon TCG there is a bit better of an argument against, but considering just how many randomized elements are there if you do a limited battles run (ie. no grindiong) then you are exactly ending up with the gameplay feel and style of something like StS. Just with more the ability to "extend your run" by grinding. It is as opposed to something like Card City Nights where there is no randomized power increases and everything is set in stone outside of the Triple Triad-esque card game actually playing out.Hmm...I guess you're right in a way. To me a roguelite deck builder has you losing somewhat frequently and starting over from the start. There's an element of quick play but also quick leveling up. I just don't think I get that feeling from Shandalar nor Poke TCG. But now that I think about it more. "Quick" is very relative. A "run" of griftlands "feels long" probably like several hours while a "long" StS run is about 1.5 hours at the worst. AtO has longish runs probably around 2 ish hours, but that comes from playing with others more than anything. I'm sure that gets shortened playing solo. I think ultimately the point of a game to fit roguelite deckbuilder for me is you're playing it multiple times either because it's quick to beat or quick to lose in, regardless you "Learn from your losses from starting over at the start again with nothing." Probably starting over again with maybe meta progression of some form. You're encouraged to play again to discover what new synergies you get with relics. I just don't see that in Shandalar nor Poke TCG. Not saying they're garbage games. I loved playing both. I'll be honest when you mentioned shandalar I was scratching my head wondering why it didn't show up on steam until I realized it wouldn't it's an old ass game i played a long time ago lol.
This I can agree with there's a quality metric between the very best that a lot of people just try to imitate. You start realizing how great StS was when you start looking at others that tried to copy it. Even if they add tons of little features you go back and realize how well balanced StS is or many of the things that they did that just was "right."
And I can't say it's surprising that you would have already played all of the best ones if you're on a binge for them. Most of the best ones are recommended pretty consistently and there is definitely a pretty big gap between the top 20-30 (number pulled out of my rear) and the rest. Like, I could probably come up with some games that you haven't played, but I can't say that I would really be able to come up with one that you hadn't played *and* was actually worth playing.
StS is not balanced at all. Shit ranges from completely useless to broken as fuck infinite turn combos. It's like one of the worst balanced games I've ever played.This kind of stuff makes me wonder, do people play at higher difficulties? It's easy to fall into the trap of THIS is the card combo I always have to force through no matter what else exists. Yes you CAN do infinite turn combos, but there are other viable strategies that exist to stabilize decks and let you get there. Often times the modest deck that lets you just win the game barely are also as good as the deck that lets you one turn a boss. At the end of the day you're going for a W. You have some distinction in how hard you stomp enemies with a score evaluation system. But I think beating Ascension 20 on StS takes some skill and thought rather than going hur dur combo winner.
This kind of stuff makes me wonder, do people play at higher difficulties? It's easy to fall into the trap of THIS is the card combo I always have to force through no matter what else exists. Yes you CAN do infinite turn combos, but there are other viable strategies that exist to stabilize decks and let you get there. Often times the modest deck that lets you just win the game barely are also as good as the deck that lets you one turn a boss. At the end of the day you're going for a W. You have some distinction in how hard you stomp enemies with a score evaluation system. But I think beating Ascension 20 on StS takes some skill and thought rather than going hur dur combo winner.
Hmm...I guess you're right in a way. To me a roguelite deck builder has you losing somewhat frequently and starting over from the start. There's an element of quick play but also quick leveling up. I just don't think I get that feeling from Shandalar nor Poke TCG. But now that I think about it more. "Quick" is very relative. A "run" of griftlands "feels long" probably like several hours while a "long" StS run is about 1.5 hours at the worst. AtO has longish runs probably around 2 ish hours, but that comes from playing with others more than anything. I'm sure that gets shortened playing solo. I think ultimately the point of a game to fit roguelite deckbuilder for me is you're playing it multiple times either because it's quick to beat or quick to lose in, regardless you "Learn from your losses from starting over at the start again with nothing." Probably starting over again with maybe meta progression of some form. You're encouraged to play again to discover what new synergies you get with relics. I just don't see that in Shandalar nor Poke TCG. Not saying they're garbage games. I loved playing both. I'll be honest when you mentioned shandalar I was scratching my head wondering why it didn't show up on steam until I realized it wouldn't it's an old ass game i played a long time ago lol.Quite. It's all extremely relative, and as someone who has actively played actual Rougelikes a lot of the whole "this is just like Rouge" from the Rougelite genre is just bunk to me. Hence why I sometimes call them Tetris-likes: literally everything they share with Rouge they share with Tetris, and many things that they share with Tetris they don't share with Rouge. Things like meta-progression and quick play/ease of getting into are not at all things I think of when I think about Rougelikes, but that is basically the entire genre when it comes to it when you talk about the whole shtick with Rougelites. Similarly it's all relative, especially when it comes to player skill. I've beaten Shandalar dozens of times, some of which definitely fell into the "sub 1 hour" range (I wasn't exactly timing). Certainly the genre is made up of more games like StS, but until the genre starts getting called "Slay-likes", or whatever, I can't knock off a game that I think is actively closer to Rouge than any of the others from the genre. It may not hit all the same notes as StS, but Shandalar absolutely hits more Rouge notes than StS does.
This I can agree with there's a quality metric between the very best that a lot of people just try to imitate. You start realizing how great StS was when you start looking at others that tried to copy it. Even if they add tons of little features you go back and realize how well balanced StS is or many of the things that they did that just was "right."Quite. The genre is super large, but the best ones tend to be really good while the vast majority tend to fall into the "they all right" sort of range. It's sort of where if someone actually cared to seriously rank them (and not just come up with them off of the top of my head like I did) there would be a pretty massive drop off in the impressions that the games gave at some point rather than just a gradual slope like you see in other genres.
How far did you get in the madness system of AtO?
I'd like to throw out Monster Train as a good roguelite deck builder, flew under a lot of people's radar