Current Events > Judge dismisses terrorism charges against Luigi

(+) Yeah! (+)

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/new-york-judge-dismisses-state-terrorism-charges-luigi-mangione-keeps-rcna231594

New York state judge on Tuesday dismissed state terrorism charges against Luigi Mangione, but kept second-degree murder charges in connection with the December killing of UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson.

New York Judge Gregory Carro tossed charges of murder in furtherance of an act of terrorism and murder in the second degree as a crime of terrorism against Mangione, ruling the charges were "legally insufficient." Carro ruled that prosecutors presented "legally sufficient evidence of all other counts, including Murder in the Second Degree."

It was always flimsy. Thanks to Charlie though I'm sure this is about to be blown up.

Fair tbh

When they're white and speak English it's never considered terrorism

Yeah, abundantly fair here

That's the fair and sensible thing to do. He's a murderer, not a terrorist.

KogaSteelfang posted...

That's the fair and sensible thing to do. He's a murderer, not a terrorist.

He's nothing until proven guilty and their evidence is extremely flimsy.

el_cheato posted...

He's nothing until proven guilty and their evidence is extremely flimsy.

True. My bad, I misspoke.

Kind of crazy they're only going for second-degree here

Another win for Luigi.

el_cheato posted...

He's nothing until proven guilty and their evidence is extremely flimsy.

We all know he did it. Let his lawyer do the defense

Will this make it harder for him to receive the death penalty or is it a wash.

Bio1590 posted...

Kind of crazy they're only going for second-degree here

New York has some pretty onerous requirements for First Degree murder. It's not just "planned to kill someone in advance." What most states call "First Degree" is what NY calls "Second Degree"

One requirement was the reason they charged him with terrorism

(xiii) the victim was killed in furtherance of an act of terrorism, as
defined in paragraph (b) of subdivision one of section 490.05 of this
chapter; and

Yeah, the terrorism charges never made sense. I'm not surprised they were rejected.

LightSnake posted...

We all know he did it. Let his lawyer do the defense

What I saw was a very obvious attempt by the NYPD to appear competent after an embarassing high profile failure to protect a rich guy by planting a gun and a "I did it btw I also love cops" note in his backpack after turning off all their body cameras and taking it out of sight of anyone.

[LFAQs-redacted-quote]

I dunno what they're going to try now, but as I understand it, that's precisely the reason they came up with the terrorism charge. Murders are only punishable by execution in the US if they're federal crimes, which only happens under weird circumstances. One circumstance is if no state can claim jurisdiction (for example, in international waters). Another is if it were terrorism.

I'm not an expert, but from googling it back when the story first dropped, that's more or less how I understood it.

el_cheato posted...

What I saw was a very obvious attempt by the NYPD to appear competent after an embarassing high profile failure to protect a rich guy by planting a gun and a "I did it btw I also love cops" note in his backpack after turning off all their body cameras and taking it out of sight of anyone.

Okay my dude

el_cheato posted...

What I saw was a very obvious attempt by the NYPD to appear competent after an embarassing high profile failure to protect a rich guy by planting a gun and a "I did it btw I also love cops" note in his backpack after turning off all their body cameras and taking it out of sight of anyone.

Leave it to his attorney. Not even you actually believe the cops are framing a white white dude

el_cheato posted...

What I saw was a very obvious attempt by the NYPD to appear competent after an embarassing high profile failure to protect a rich guy by planting a gun and a "I did it btw I also love cops" note in his backpack after turning off all their body cameras and taking it out of sight of anyone.

Ok, but he did it though
you dont believe that he didnt kill that CEO. And if you say that you do, nobody believes you.

el_cheato posted...

What I saw was a very obvious attempt by the NYPD to appear competent after an embarassing high profile failure to protect a rich guy by planting a gun and a "I did it btw I also love cops" note in his backpack after turning off all their body cameras and taking it out of sight of anyone.

Alternate pitch: he's just a murderer.

el_cheato posted...

He's nothing until proven guilty and their evidence is extremely flimsy.

Cmon, no amount of gaslighting on CE is going to change results for him.

el_cheato posted...

He's nothing until proven guilty and their evidence is extremely flimsy.

Whether or not you think it's justified is one thing, saying a manifesto was planted on him is tinfoil AF

Also, OJ was still a murderer despite not being proven guilty in a court of law.

There are also Huntley, Mapp and Mosley hearings on the McDonald's interrogation, the backpack evidence, and the eyewitness accounts from cops IDing him on video respectively.

If he walks, it's because of police incompetence.

LightSnake posted...

New York has some pretty onerous requirements for First Degree murder. It's not just "planned to kill someone in advance." What most states call "First Degree" is what NY calls "Second Degree"

One requirement was the reason they charged him with terrorism

What more would he have had to have done to qualify for first degree murder?

DodogamaRayBrst posted...

OJ was still a murderer despite not being proven guilty in a court of law

true. i'm glad karma came back and bit him in the ass a few times later in life. he's guilty as hell and got away with it.

haloiscoolisbak posted...

What more would he have had to have done to qualify for first degree murder?

New York categorizes first degree as pre-planned murder against certain individuals (IE: kill a cop or judge), in "furtherance of terrorism" (hence the terrorism charge), kill someone when you'd already killed someone before...

Most states define it as "premeditated killing of someone." In NY, that's second-degree

With how hard they tried to act when arresting him he should be found not guilty just for that.

Actually wait, nah nah! Didn't they fucking have Netflix so a documentary about him and showed them 'evidence'? Cause if that's true then automatically not guilty.

Here's the thing: if Mangione's actions are not considered an act of political terror, and instead just a run of the mill personal murder, does that not diminish the symbolic power of his actions (i.e.: the reason some people support him)?

Does this bolster a narrative where he's not a heroic anti corporate warrior, striking against uncaring capitalism, but just some weirdo with a grudge?

And in whose interests would that be?

ai123 posted...

Here's the thing: if Mangione's actions are not considered an act of political terror, and instead just a run of the mill personal murder, does that not diminish the symbolic power of his actions (i.e.: the reason some people support him)?

Does this bolster a narrative where he's not a heroic anti corporate warrior, striking against uncaring capitalism, but just some weirdo with a grudge?

And in whose interests would that be?

I'm sure there are about three people who have been waiting for this verdict to decide where they stand on this.

ai123 posted...

Here's the thing: if Mangione's actions are not considered an act of political terror, and instead just a run of the mill personal murder, does that not diminish the symbolic power of his actions (i.e.: the reason some people support him)?

Does this bolster a narrative where he's not a heroic anti corporate warrior, striking against uncaring capitalism, but just some weirdo with a grudge?

This is kind of a case where there's a bit of a blurry line between "I committed violence in furtherance of a political action" and "I committed violence beecause of my hate of the system"...like usually just straight up shooting a dude because you hate his business practices isn't the "terrorism" umbrella as opposed to planting a bomb for something.

But like the whole thing was

Luigi: I committed political violence to further my beliefs.
Supporters: You committed political violence to further your beliefs! ^_^
The state: Okay, he committed political violence to further his beliefs
Supporters: How dareyou

UnfairRepresent posted...

When they're white and speak English it's never considered terrorism

It wasn't terrorism.

Bass posted...

Yeah, the terrorism charges never made sense. I'm not surprised they were rejected.

In this country? Im surprised

UnfairRepresent posted...

When they're white and speak English it's never considered terrorism

There was that one time in 1995...

UnfairRepresent posted...

When they're white and speak English it's never considered terrorism

I think Ted Kaczynski and Timothy McVeigh might beg to differ

LightSnake posted...

I think Ted Kaczynski and Timothy McVeigh might beg to differ

that was a different time. the country is not like it was then

Yeah, he's pretty obviously a murderer, but the terrorism charge was always stupid.

DoesntMatter posted...

that was a different time. the country is not like it was then

Cesar Sayoc is a more recent example, but I guess things have changed even since then.

DodogamaRayBrst posted...

Will this make it harder for him to receive the death penalty or is it a wash.

NY doesnt have the death penalty to my knowledge

DodogamaRayBrst posted...

Will this make it harder for him to receive the death penalty or is it a wash.

New York doesn't have the death penalty. Only the feds are seeking it

Terrorism was a huge stretch, so it makes sense.

ReturnOfDevsman posted...

I dunno what they're going to try now, but as I understand it, that's precisely the reason they came up with the terrorism charge. Murders are only punishable by execution in the US if they're federal crimes, which only happens under weird circumstances. One circumstance is if no state can claim jurisdiction (for example, in international waters). Another is if it were terrorism.

I'm not an expert, but from googling it back when the story first dropped, that's more or less how I understood it.

Thats not how it works. New York State cant execute him because they dont have the death penalty. Federal courts can, but thats unrelated to the charges in New York, they just also have to charge which they are doing on the grounds that the crimes involved multiple states. So the state dropping terrorism charges has no direct effect on whether or not the feds can have him executed.

BlackScythe0 posted...

It wasn't terrorism.

He murdered a guy in cold blood to push for political change in the healthcare system via fear of violence

Maybe there's legalese for criminal proceedings but for all common parlance that's 100% terrorism

UnfairRepresent posted...

He murdered a guy in cold blood to push for political change in the healthcare system via fear of violence

Maybe there's legalese for criminal proceedings but for all common parlance that's 100% terrorism

Nearly all murders would be terrorism if this made it terrorism.

Ex: person has debt. Kills debt collector.

But that is a personal grudge but you could say "well they trying to reform the debt system!"

We know Luigi if he did it, had extensive back medical issues
He had a grudge

WingsOfGood posted...

Nearly all murders would be terrorism if this made it terrorism.

Ex: person has debt. Kills debt collector.

But that is a personal grudge but you could say "well they trying to reform the debt system!"

We know Luigi if he did it, had extensive back medical issues
He had a grudge

Please define terrorism for us.

Because a communist murdering a tax collector to promote communism would indeed be terrorism. Even if they have a grudge

you're yapping like terrorism has to be religiously motivated

UnfairRepresent posted...

Please define terrorism for us.

Because a communist murdering a tax collector to promote communism would indeed be terrorism. Even if they have a grudge

you're yapping like terrorism has to be religiously motivated

Terrorsim is killing people not involved in any grudge to create enough fear to motivate those involved to change

Ex: random American with no political power goes to Afghanistan
Captured and beheaded as a message to the people at the Whitehouse

There was no grudge here. The person did nothing to upset the killers. They could care less who the person even was

This is not the case with Brian Thompson

For example killing someone in politics in this case would be assassination not terrorism

I don't think anyone is saying that.

It's a blurry line here, but ultimately it's still shooting one guy over a grudge and if that's "terrorism" is pretty questionable. I'm not sure I think that line should be erased because Luigi sucks because it'll be weaponized against a lot of other people.

When the USA drone strikes someone who is a leader in ISIS is that terrorism?

No it is assassination. Dinstinction is important. Same when any high military official is killed.

Ultimately the goal is to change politics though

However if they drone strike a bunch of innocents and tell the govermnet you better change or more innocents die that is terrorism

WingsOfGood posted...

Terrorsim is killing people not involved in any grudge to create enough fear to motivate those involved to change

Ex: random American with no political power goes to Afghanistan
Captured and beheaded as a message to the people at the Whitehouse

There was no grudge here. The person did nothing to upset the killers. They could care less who the person even was

This is not the case with Brian Thompson

For example killing someone in politics in this case would be assassination not terrorism

That's a bullshit definition and you know it.

By your logic if anarchists blow up Donald Trump , that's not terrorism because its not random and they have a grudge

Face facts. If Luigi was a brown Muslim called Muhammad Aziz, he'd be considered a terrorist

if it was a black guy from Detroit with ties to BLM called Tryone Steel, he'd be considered a terrorist

If it was a Chinese national called Hsu Hao, he'd be considered a terrorist

It's violence and murder with the distinct goal of causing political change through fear.

That's as clear cut as it gets. Luigi is a terrorist. He only got off because of racism