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andylt 05/06/23 12:52:05 PM #1: |
A random question but it's one I've been thinking about. The plots of RPGs often involve challenging corrupt and unaccountable authority on behalf of the commonfolk- it's become a gag that you wind up killing god, the ultimate authority figure, at the end of so many stories. I'm fond of the genre, but I find that for some reason medieval JRPGs in particular seem beholden to pro-monarchy angles, despite monarchy at its core representing the same inequality and injustice the parties usually wind up fighting against. Whether it's a secret princess, a young prince learning what it means to lead his country, and/or helping the rightful heir reclaim their throne from an evil usurper, the same beats are hit again and again. Maybe it's simply part of the set dressing of the era, obviously these tropes extends far beyond RPGs and video games as a whole, but does anyone have examples of solid gaming stories that involve monarchies without having a 'good' one to place on the throne and save the day? It doesn't have to be JRPGs but that seems to be the genre that features monarchies most prominently. --- Very very slowly becoming a Final Fantasy aficionado. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Kenri 05/06/23 1:21:05 PM #2: |
I've been wondering this myself for a while and I can't really think of one, though that doesn't mean none exist. Fire Emblem was what got me to start thinking about this since that series very often does "monarchies are bad" but then tacks on "with some exceptions" or "in practice only" or whatever to avoid actually committing to a hard-line stance. --- Congrats to BKSheikah, who knows more about years than anyone else. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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MacArrowny 05/06/23 1:23:33 PM #3: |
Claude's route in 3 Houses. Also Edelgard's. --- All the stars in the sky are waiting for you. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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TeamRocketElite 05/06/23 1:29:30 PM #4: |
Three Houses spoilers for Claude's route: "Afterward, Claude left Fdlan, leaving Byleth to ascend the throne as the first leader of the United Kingdom of Fdlan." So definitely not for Claude. --- My bracket looked like random picks compared to his. Congrats to azuarc for winning the GotD 2020 Guru Contest! ... Copied to Clipboard!
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MacArrowny 05/06/23 1:31:43 PM #5: |
Oh whoops. Claude starts out anti monarchy at least lol. Maybe it becomes a conditional monarchy instead of absolute or something. --- All the stars in the sky are waiting for you. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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LightningStrikes 05/06/23 1:35:16 PM #6: |
The Witcher. --- I just decided to change this sig. Blaaaaaaargh azuarc ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Kenri 05/06/23 1:36:46 PM #7: |
All of 3 Houses' stories are basically "monarchy bad but empire good" which might technically fit this topic but definitely feels wrong. --- Congrats to BKSheikah, who knows more about years than anyone else. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Leonhart4 05/06/23 1:38:53 PM #8: |
Kenri posted... All of 3 Houses' stories are basically "monarchy bad but empire good" which might technically fit this topic but definitely feels wrong. Which is still kind of the other end of the spectrum of most RPGs...! --- https://imgur.com/WqDcNNq https://imgur.com/89Z5jrB ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Kenri 05/06/23 1:44:06 PM #9: |
Leonhart4 posted... Which is still kind of the other end of the spectrum of most RPGs...!In practice not really because 3/4ths of the routes are still explicitly about a good-ish kingdom fighting an evil empire. --- Congrats to BKSheikah, who knows more about years than anyone else. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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pjbasis 05/06/23 2:02:53 PM #10: |
A benevolent good king is more believable than a benelovent good group of bureacrats. Obviously it's the system that's better in the latter, but it's harder to depict in a highly idealistic lens. --- http://i498.photobucket.com/albums/rr345/Rakaputra/B8%20Girls%202012/pjbas.png ... Copied to Clipboard!
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ivysnow 05/06/23 2:03:34 PM #11: |
final fantasy 14 feels generally thematically opposed to monarchies and similar lineage-based forms of governance, with the exception of doma dark souls 1 and 3 are fairly unkind to monarchies as well ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Not_an_Owl 05/06/23 2:39:50 PM #12: |
Final Fantasy Tactics. --- Besides, marijuana is far more harmful than steroids. - BlitzBomb I headbang to Bruckner. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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foolm0r0n 05/06/23 2:51:12 PM #13: |
Persona? Not monarchy exactly but establishment and megacorps --- _foolmo_ he says listen to my story this maybe are last chance ... Copied to Clipboard!
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foolm0r0n 05/06/23 2:55:41 PM #14: |
And do you mean anti medieval monarchy? Or anti modern monarchy? It's one thing to say "fictional kings in castles are bad" and another to go against the cultural grip that the royal family has over the world, or against the very real monarchies in countries like Saudi Arabia --- _foolmo_ he says listen to my story this maybe are last chance ... Copied to Clipboard!
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CoolCly 05/06/23 2:59:14 PM #15: |
Somebody has gotta be in charge. Ultimately the goal is "bad people are in charge, replace them with good people in charge" which doesn't really require some kind of statement about the perfect form of government... --- The batman villians all seem to be one big joke that batman refuses to laugh at - SantaRPG ... Copied to Clipboard!
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TeamRocketElite 05/06/23 3:00:26 PM #16: |
Oh, it just hit me that this topic came up because of the King Charles coronation. >_> --- My bracket looked like random picks compared to his. Congrats to azuarc for winning the GotD 2020 Guru Contest! ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Leonhart4 05/06/23 3:02:52 PM #17: |
Not_an_Owl posted... Final Fantasy Tactics. Eh, the intro dialogue to the game says that Delita was regarded by history as a good king, even if the real story isn't quite that rosy. Tactics is more anti-religion than anti-monarchy. --- https://imgur.com/WqDcNNq https://imgur.com/89Z5jrB ... Copied to Clipboard!
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LightningStrikes 05/06/23 3:06:42 PM #18: |
The problem is game stories and the fantasy genre more generally rarely take the rime to discuss what actually happens after the corrupt monarch is deposed which is how you get well some kings are good actually. The exception I can think of which actually shows a post-monarchy government is Final Fantasy XIV. --- I just decided to change this sig. Blaaaaaaargh azuarc ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Aecioo 05/06/23 4:14:35 PM #19: |
LightningStrikes posted... The Witcher. Yeah, I think wRPGs in general tend to be more anti-monarchy, or anti-those in charge more broadly. --- http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lcb35gGx0t1qailr4o1_500.gif http://www.megavideo.com/?v=57N0YAEJ ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Mewtwo59 05/06/23 4:17:24 PM #20: |
FF7 kinda? Look at the whole Junon coronation and tell me that Shinra wasn't a monarchy. --- ""Love" is making a shot to the knees of a target 120 kilometers away using an Aratech sniper rifle with a tri-light scope." HK-47 ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Big_Bob 05/06/23 4:27:28 PM #21: |
Trails of Cold Steel has some characters who are very strongly anti-monarchy. Sky also has a subplot where people some people in power inherited the position, pissing off the population. Though the series is also known for "let's make sure the monarch is good and not evil" so it's not entirely consistent. --- Come watch me on Twitch: https://www.twitch.tv/gameryogi azuarc beat me. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Leonhart4 05/06/23 4:28:38 PM #22: |
Trails definitely believes in good monarchs considering one of the main characters in Sky is one. --- https://imgur.com/WqDcNNq https://imgur.com/89Z5jrB ... Copied to Clipboard!
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LightningStrikes 05/06/23 4:31:51 PM #23: |
Shinra is basically a fascist state and gets explicitly called one in FF7R but likely doesnt technically count as a monarchy. --- I just decided to change this sig. Blaaaaaaargh azuarc ... Copied to Clipboard!
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paperwarior 05/06/23 4:42:13 PM #24: |
There's also the issue that your enemies in RPGs are usually specific individuals, villains, not the political system that they exist within. The system is often shown to be terrible, but you don't have many heroes with ideologies that are purely political. They have a history with the villain, a betrayal, a loved one who was victimized, some scheme to stop. --- "God Hand is the ultimate expression of the joy of humanity, specifically the punching part of the joy of humanity."-Shigeru Miyamoto ... Copied to Clipboard!
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KJH 05/06/23 4:51:28 PM #25: |
Growlanser 2 has two routes that are anti-monarchy. --- You can't live without a spinal cord, son. Nothing unnatural about that. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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MacArrowny 05/06/23 4:53:57 PM #26: |
Edelgard's route in 3 Houses is definitely anti-monarchy. Her goal is to conquer the continent then disband the nobility, despite that meaning she'll become a peasant. --- All the stars in the sky are waiting for you. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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HeroDelTiempo17 05/06/23 5:00:41 PM #27: |
paperwarior posted... There's also the issue that your enemies in RPGs are usually specific individuals, villains, not the political system that they exist within. The system is often shown to be terrible, but you don't have many heroes with ideologies that are purely political. They have a history with the villain, a betrayal, a loved one who was victimized, some scheme to stop. Yeah, even in series like Persona which were mentioned as "anti-establishment," you're fighting individual baddies to fix the system, which ultimately doesn't change. P5S is really blatant about it - plotwise it's pretty much a rehash of P5 with a new cast of villains. In a way it's not that the system itself is terrible but it's the bad people within it, except the problem is never ending. also, evergreen tweet https://twitter.com/headfallsoff/status/1051484419251425280?t=qUfPRTDAqT4RUp33bmOEKw&s=19 --- I definitely did not forget to put the 2020 GOTD Guru winner, azuarc in my sig! ... Copied to Clipboard!
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HeroDelTiempo17 05/06/23 5:12:59 PM #28: |
LightningStrikes posted... The problem is game stories and the fantasy genre more generally rarely take the rime to discuss what actually happens after the corrupt monarch is deposed which is how you get well some kings are good actually. Also double post here but I missed this - FF14 has very blatant subtext about its ideal form of government being some form of democratic socialism. While most of the governments in that game are shown to be corrupt or in need of reform, there's multiple communal societies that get to be purely utopian. --- I definitely did not forget to put the 2020 GOTD Guru winner, azuarc in my sig! ... Copied to Clipboard!
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colliding 05/06/23 5:26:17 PM #29: |
Leonhart4 posted... Eh, the intro dialogue to the game says that Delita was regarded by history as a good king, even if the real story isn't quite that rosy. Tactics is more anti-religion than anti-monarchy. Tactics was my first thought and I think it still fits the bill. --- while you slept, the world changed ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Mewtwo59 05/06/23 5:37:28 PM #30: |
MacArrowny posted... Edelgard's route in 3 Houses is definitely anti-monarchy. Her goal is to conquer the continent then disband the nobility, despite that meaning she'll become a peasant. Edelgard stays emperor in every single one of her endings. In some, she retires when she gets older, but nothing about them implies that she ends the monarchy, just changes it from a family based succession to "emperor picks their successor." --- ""Love" is making a shot to the knees of a target 120 kilometers away using an Aratech sniper rifle with a tri-light scope." HK-47 ... Copied to Clipboard!
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andylt 05/06/23 5:37:30 PM #31: |
Some great points raised, thanks all. I hadn't considered how the very personal role of monarchs in stories makes them much easier to dramatise than political systems that don't centre on an individual. OTOH, games clearly have no problem going after entire religions. It's funny that a lot of the examples given seem to have an asterisk to them. FFT is a curious one though, I think it does generally let the player come to their own conclusions, for better or worse. I guess I should get Three Houses sometime, Edelgard sounds interesting as a character (I lost interest in FE after burning out on the 3DS games and Heroes). And as always I will take note of FFXIV. Never heard of Growlanser before but colour me intrigued! Aecioo posted... Yeah, I think wRPGs in general tend to be more anti-monarchy, or anti-those in charge more broadly.Hm this is an interesting thought, at a glance I'd believe this as well but I couldn't say for sure. foolm0r0n posted... And do you mean anti medieval monarchy? Or anti modern monarchy? It's one thing to say "fictional kings in castles are bad" and another to go against the cultural grip that the royal family has over the world, or against the very real monarchies in countries like Saudi ArabiaEither. I was focusing on medieval monarchy as that seems far more prevalent in games but if there's modern stories that take anti-royal stances I'd enjoy them as well! TeamRocketElite posted... Oh, it just hit me that this topic came up because of the King Charles coronation. >_>Haha, I've actually been thinking about this topic for some time. But yeah that did bring it to the forefront of my mind today so it isn't unrelated! --- Very very slowly becoming a Final Fantasy aficionado. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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KamikazePotato 05/06/23 5:44:11 PM #32: |
Skies of Arcadia is mostly anti-monarchy. Good nobles are treated like the exception, not the rule. --- It's Reyn Time. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Mewtwo59 05/06/23 5:49:55 PM #33: |
KamikazePotato posted... Skies of Arcadia is mostly anti-monarchy. Good nobles are treated like the exception, not the rule. That one still ended with --- ""Love" is making a shot to the knees of a target 120 kilometers away using an Aratech sniper rifle with a tri-light scope." HK-47 ... Copied to Clipboard!
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MacArrowny 05/06/23 5:57:31 PM #34: |
Three Houses Spoilers I guess <_< : Mewtwo59 posted... Edelgard stays emperor in every single one of her endings. In some, she retires when she gets older, but nothing about them implies that she ends the monarchy, just changes it from a family based succession to "emperor picks their successor.""As the Adrestian emperor, Edelgard appointed Ferdinand as her prime minister, and the two devoted themselves to ruling Fodlan. Their sharply contrasting views made for frequent and lively debate, but with each enhancing the perspective of the other, Fodlan was better for it. As they worked tirelessly to create a better future, they were soon bound together by marriage as well. Their children, born to those who had torn down the old social hierarchy, were encouraged to choose their own paths." Most of her endings mention reforming the class system. Some mention a successor, others don't. I feel like the implication is supposed to be that the imperial system isn't long for the world, but I could have a skewed interpretation. HeroDelTiempo17 posted... Also double post here but I missed this - FF14 has very blatant subtext about its ideal form of government being some form of democratic socialism. While most of the governments in that game are shown to be corrupt or in need of reform, there's multiple communal societies that get to be purely utopian.I feel like Doma goes against that, but maybe not. --- All the stars in the sky are waiting for you. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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HeroDelTiempo17 05/06/23 6:13:00 PM #35: |
MacArrowny posted... I feel like Doma goes against that, but maybe not. Yeah I thought about Doma after the fact. Though even Doma ends up as --- I definitely did not forget to put the 2020 GOTD Guru winner, azuarc in my sig! ... Copied to Clipboard!
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BlackMageJawa 05/06/23 7:37:00 PM #36: |
I think part of the reason for this is that "We toppled the evil ruler and installed a good one in their place" makes for a neater resolution than "We toppled our entire system of government, I'm sure this new one will work out better". You can establish that the new king/queen is good by having them be a good character. It's much harder for an RPG to establish the relative benefits of a democracy in the middle of a dungeon crawl. Sure, most of the audience probably would consider it to be an improvement, but if it's not part of the story, it's still going to feel like a loose end. --- The shattered stage is set and there's a role you must fulfil ... Copied to Clipboard!
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LiquidOshawott 05/06/23 7:39:30 PM #37: |
Pretty sure there are a couple New Vegas endings that fit this but the fact that you can choose is proof that its probably not the case --- I live on, THROUGH THIS SEASHELL! VeryInsane's mobile account ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Raka_Putra 05/06/23 8:09:31 PM #38: |
Suikoden I, kinda. It replaced Scarlet Moon Empire with Toran Republic, but a big part of it was because the Emperor was crazy and evil instead of the form of government necessarily. --- "A blank page or canvas, his favorite. So many possibilities." - RIP Stephen Sondheim, 1930-2021 ... Copied to Clipboard!
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LeonhartFour 05/06/23 8:17:57 PM #39: |
is there a Tales game that's anti-monarchy I feel like a lot of Tales games are anti-status quo (whatever form it happens to take) at the very least --- http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/080/145/638.png ... Copied to Clipboard!
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WarThaNemesis2 05/06/23 8:21:53 PM #40: |
LeonhartFour posted... is there a Tales game that's anti-monarchy Tales of Symphonia is anti-basically anything. Mayors? Bad. Kings? Bad. Popes? Bad. Rich people? Bad. Poor people? Bad. Six year olds not being laborers? Bad. --- Not a stinky alien. :( Nintendo Switch Code: SW-5719-6555-8388 ... Copied to Clipboard!
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paperwarior 05/06/23 8:37:28 PM #41: |
Berseria probably would be if they didn't live in a theocracy. Abyss has you juggling international diplomacy and lost technology devices to keep all of humanity from dying. You have to at least work with some monarchs for that. --- "God Hand is the ultimate expression of the joy of humanity, specifically the punching part of the joy of humanity."-Shigeru Miyamoto ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Kenri 05/06/23 8:56:24 PM #42: |
BlackMageJawa posted... I think part of the reason for this is that "We toppled the evil ruler and installed a good one in their place" makes for a neater resolution than "We toppled our entire system of government, I'm sure this new one will work out better".You could always replace the bad monarch with a good president or something. But generally speaking I think you're right that it makes for a neater story not to go down that road unless it's the entire crux of the plot. --- Congrats to BKSheikah, who knows more about years than anyone else. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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squexa 05/06/23 9:17:19 PM #43: |
andylt posted... A random question but it's one I've been thinking about. The plots of RPGs often involve challenging corrupt and unaccountable authority on behalf of the commonfolk- it's become a gag that you wind up killing god, the ultimate authority figure, at the end of so many stories. I'm fond of the genre, but I find that for some reason medieval JRPGs in particular seem beholden to pro-monarchy angles, despite monarchy at its core representing the same inequality and injustice the parties usually wind up fighting against. It's very uncommon and I think part of it has to be because most RPGs by design emphasize exceptionalism. You usually have a small band of "chosen people" that are the only ones that can affect the fate of the world. Many of them have literal god given divine powers that puts them above 99% of humanity who would be lost and powerless without the benevolence of the player party. Introducing anti-monarchism in an innately pro-exceptionalist world becomes complicated and contradictory unless its fairly low fantasy or it's an intentional deconstruction or something. --- congrats to azuarc, our GotD2 guru! ... Copied to Clipboard!
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LiquidOshawott 05/06/23 9:32:17 PM #44: |
LeonhartFour posted... is there a Tales game that's anti-monarchy Arise definitely fits here edit oh wait --- I live on, THROUGH THIS SEASHELL! VeryInsane's mobile account ... Copied to Clipboard!
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KamikazePotato 05/06/23 9:42:31 PM #45: |
I think if we're being this stringent with our requirements we're not going to find many examples from popular culture media. I can't remember the last time a story ended with a big governmental paradign shift. --- It's Reyn Time. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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MacArrowny 05/06/23 10:07:59 PM #46: |
KamikazePotato posted... I think if we're being this stringent with our requirements we're not going to find many examples from popular culture media. I can't remember the last time a story ended with a big governmental paradign shift.Return of the Jedi, baby. --- All the stars in the sky are waiting for you. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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Leonhart4 05/06/23 10:12:54 PM #47: |
MacArrowny posted... Return of the Jedi, baby. Technically this is the end of every Star Wars trilogy...! --- https://imgur.com/WqDcNNq https://imgur.com/89Z5jrB ... Copied to Clipboard!
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HeroDelTiempo17 05/06/23 10:31:25 PM #48: |
KamikazePotato posted... I think if we're being this stringent with our requirements we're not going to find many examples from popular culture media. I can't remember the last time a story ended with a big governmental paradign shift. The popular series I can think of that come out hard against authoritarianism governments or whatever as major themes tend to have downer or bittersweet endings, not aspirational ones. It might be hard to justify that for 60+ hour JRPGs edit: Well I say that but the original ending of FF7, before the compilation stuff is uh...pretty ambiguous --- I definitely did not forget to put the 2020 GOTD Guru winner, azuarc in my sig! ... Copied to Clipboard!
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tcaz2 05/06/23 10:49:55 PM #49: |
FF14 is legitimately the only one I can think of. Suikoden has shades of it, but it's not really a focus. ... Copied to Clipboard!
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LightningStrikes 05/07/23 5:14:46 AM #50: |
On Doma in FFXIV its very much the exception and I think it is partially a result of highlighting many different places through different writers. It should be said that FFXIVs nature as a giant serialised story is what helps it actually show alternative forms of government coming about. If Heavensward we a standalone game it would probably just end with --- I just decided to change this sig. Blaaaaaaargh azuarc ... Copied to Clipboard!
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