Board 8 > Can you name some RPGs that are explicitly anti-monarchy?

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andylt
05/06/23 12:52:05 PM
#1:


A random question but it's one I've been thinking about. The plots of RPGs often involve challenging corrupt and unaccountable authority on behalf of the commonfolk- it's become a gag that you wind up killing god, the ultimate authority figure, at the end of so many stories. I'm fond of the genre, but I find that for some reason medieval JRPGs in particular seem beholden to pro-monarchy angles, despite monarchy at its core representing the same inequality and injustice the parties usually wind up fighting against.

Whether it's a secret princess, a young prince learning what it means to lead his country, and/or helping the rightful heir reclaim their throne from an evil usurper, the same beats are hit again and again. Maybe it's simply part of the set dressing of the era, obviously these tropes extends far beyond RPGs and video games as a whole, but does anyone have examples of solid gaming stories that involve monarchies without having a 'good' one to place on the throne and save the day? It doesn't have to be JRPGs but that seems to be the genre that features monarchies most prominently.

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Kenri
05/06/23 1:21:05 PM
#2:


I've been wondering this myself for a while and I can't really think of one, though that doesn't mean none exist.

Fire Emblem was what got me to start thinking about this since that series very often does "monarchies are bad" but then tacks on "with some exceptions" or "in practice only" or whatever to avoid actually committing to a hard-line stance.

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MacArrowny
05/06/23 1:23:33 PM
#3:


Claude's route in 3 Houses. Also Edelgard's.

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TeamRocketElite
05/06/23 1:29:30 PM
#4:


Three Houses spoilers for Claude's route:

"Afterward, Claude left Fdlan, leaving Byleth to ascend the throne as the first leader of the United Kingdom of Fdlan."

So definitely not for Claude.

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MacArrowny
05/06/23 1:31:43 PM
#5:


Oh whoops. Claude starts out anti monarchy at least lol. Maybe it becomes a conditional monarchy instead of absolute or something.

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LightningStrikes
05/06/23 1:35:16 PM
#6:


The Witcher.

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Kenri
05/06/23 1:36:46 PM
#7:


All of 3 Houses' stories are basically "monarchy bad but empire good" which might technically fit this topic but definitely feels wrong.

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Leonhart4
05/06/23 1:38:53 PM
#8:


Kenri posted...
All of 3 Houses' stories are basically "monarchy bad but empire good" which might technically fit this topic but definitely feels wrong.

Which is still kind of the other end of the spectrum of most RPGs...!

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Kenri
05/06/23 1:44:06 PM
#9:


Leonhart4 posted...
Which is still kind of the other end of the spectrum of most RPGs...!
In practice not really because 3/4ths of the routes are still explicitly about a good-ish kingdom fighting an evil empire.

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pjbasis
05/06/23 2:02:53 PM
#10:


A benevolent good king is more believable than a benelovent good group of bureacrats. Obviously it's the system that's better in the latter, but it's harder to depict in a highly idealistic lens.

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ivysnow
05/06/23 2:03:34 PM
#11:


final fantasy 14 feels generally thematically opposed to monarchies and similar lineage-based forms of governance, with the exception of doma

dark souls 1 and 3 are fairly unkind to monarchies as well
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Not_an_Owl
05/06/23 2:39:50 PM
#12:


Final Fantasy Tactics.

Before the game starts there was a conflict between kingdoms, and Ivalice (the kingdom where the game takes place) raised a large army of commoners to help fight. The war ends in a bloody stalemate, and the commoners are all sent home with no money to rebuild their homeland. A solid core of that army raises up in rebellion against the nobility that used them and then threw them away, but are ultimately crushed.

The old king dies, leaving behind two potential heirs - a late-teens daughter (who may or may not even be related to him by blood) and an infant son (who, hilariously, has the same caveat). Two factions of nobles spring up, each plotting to manipulate one of the heirs to put themselves in absolute power. A civil war breaks out, further worsening conditions for the common folk (who are still trying to recover from that prior-events foreign war - that ended like 2 years before the civil war starts). The heirs themselves are puppets with no real power over either their own lives or the fate of the kingdom.

The ultimate indictment of the monarchy is Delita, childhood friend of the main character and a commoner. After watching his sister die on the orders of the nobility, Delita wheels, deals, and backstabs his way into a position of power in the faction controlling the princess, kills the nobles in the hierarchy above him, wins the war after all of the leadership of the other faction dies, marries the princess, is crowned king, and then murders his queen shortly thereafter. He's a king with absolutely no royal blood, with no redeeming qualities besides ambition, who goes so far as to manipulate his best friend to further his own aims. The game ends before you can see any of what he does as king, and you're just kind of left to imagine how much worse things can get.

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foolm0r0n
05/06/23 2:51:12 PM
#13:


Persona? Not monarchy exactly but establishment and megacorps

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foolm0r0n
05/06/23 2:55:41 PM
#14:


And do you mean anti medieval monarchy? Or anti modern monarchy? It's one thing to say "fictional kings in castles are bad" and another to go against the cultural grip that the royal family has over the world, or against the very real monarchies in countries like Saudi Arabia

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CoolCly
05/06/23 2:59:14 PM
#15:


Somebody has gotta be in charge. Ultimately the goal is "bad people are in charge, replace them with good people in charge" which doesn't really require some kind of statement about the perfect form of government...

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TeamRocketElite
05/06/23 3:00:26 PM
#16:


Oh, it just hit me that this topic came up because of the King Charles coronation. >_>

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Leonhart4
05/06/23 3:02:52 PM
#17:


Not_an_Owl posted...
Final Fantasy Tactics.

Before the game starts there was a conflict between kingdoms, and Ivalice (the kingdom where the game takes place) raised a large army of commoners to help fight. The war ends in a bloody stalemate, and the commoners are all sent home with no money to rebuild their homeland. A solid core of that army raises up in rebellion against the nobility that used them and then threw them away, but are ultimately crushed.

The old king dies, leaving behind two potential heirs - a late-teens daughter (who may or may not even be related to him by blood) and an infant son (who, hilariously, has the same caveat). Two factions of nobles spring up, each plotting to manipulate one of the heirs to put themselves in absolute power. A civil war breaks out, further worsening conditions for the common folk (who are still trying to recover from that prior-events foreign war - that ended like 2 years before the civil war starts). The heirs themselves are puppets with no real power over either their own lives or the fate of the kingdom.

The ultimate indictment of the monarchy is Delita, childhood friend of the main character and a commoner. After watching his sister die on the orders of the nobility, Delita wheels, deals, and backstabs his way into a position of power in the faction controlling the princess, kills the nobles in the hierarchy above him, wins the war after all of the leadership of the other faction dies, marries the princess, is crowned king, and then murders his queen shortly thereafter. He's a king with absolutely no royal blood, with no redeeming qualities besides ambition, who goes so far as to manipulate his best friend to further his own aims. The game ends before you can see any of what he does as king, and you're just kind of left to imagine how much worse things can get.

Eh, the intro dialogue to the game says that Delita was regarded by history as a good king, even if the real story isn't quite that rosy. Tactics is more anti-religion than anti-monarchy.

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LightningStrikes
05/06/23 3:06:42 PM
#18:


The problem is game stories and the fantasy genre more generally rarely take the rime to discuss what actually happens after the corrupt monarch is deposed which is how you get well some kings are good actually.

The exception I can think of which actually shows a post-monarchy government is Final Fantasy XIV.

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Aecioo
05/06/23 4:14:35 PM
#19:


LightningStrikes posted...
The Witcher.

Yeah, I think wRPGs in general tend to be more anti-monarchy, or anti-those in charge more broadly.

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Mewtwo59
05/06/23 4:17:24 PM
#20:


FF7 kinda? Look at the whole Junon coronation and tell me that Shinra wasn't a monarchy.

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Big_Bob
05/06/23 4:27:28 PM
#21:


Trails of Cold Steel has some characters who are very strongly anti-monarchy. Sky also has a subplot where people some people in power inherited the position, pissing off the population.

Though the series is also known for "let's make sure the monarch is good and not evil" so it's not entirely consistent.

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Leonhart4
05/06/23 4:28:38 PM
#22:


Trails definitely believes in good monarchs considering one of the main characters in Sky is one.

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LightningStrikes
05/06/23 4:31:51 PM
#23:


Shinra is basically a fascist state and gets explicitly called one in FF7R but likely doesnt technically count as a monarchy.

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paperwarior
05/06/23 4:42:13 PM
#24:


There's also the issue that your enemies in RPGs are usually specific individuals, villains, not the political system that they exist within. The system is often shown to be terrible, but you don't have many heroes with ideologies that are purely political. They have a history with the villain, a betrayal, a loved one who was victimized, some scheme to stop.

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KJH
05/06/23 4:51:28 PM
#25:


Growlanser 2 has two routes that are anti-monarchy.

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MacArrowny
05/06/23 4:53:57 PM
#26:


Edelgard's route in 3 Houses is definitely anti-monarchy. Her goal is to conquer the continent then disband the nobility, despite that meaning she'll become a peasant.

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HeroDelTiempo17
05/06/23 5:00:41 PM
#27:


paperwarior posted...
There's also the issue that your enemies in RPGs are usually specific individuals, villains, not the political system that they exist within. The system is often shown to be terrible, but you don't have many heroes with ideologies that are purely political. They have a history with the villain, a betrayal, a loved one who was victimized, some scheme to stop.

Yeah, even in series like Persona which were mentioned as "anti-establishment," you're fighting individual baddies to fix the system, which ultimately doesn't change. P5S is really blatant about it - plotwise it's pretty much a rehash of P5 with a new cast of villains. In a way it's not that the system itself is terrible but it's the bad people within it, except the problem is never ending.

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HeroDelTiempo17
05/06/23 5:12:59 PM
#28:


LightningStrikes posted...
The problem is game stories and the fantasy genre more generally rarely take the rime to discuss what actually happens after the corrupt monarch is deposed which is how you get well some kings are good actually.

The exception I can think of which actually shows a post-monarchy government is Final Fantasy XIV.

Also double post here but I missed this - FF14 has very blatant subtext about its ideal form of government being some form of democratic socialism. While most of the governments in that game are shown to be corrupt or in need of reform, there's multiple communal societies that get to be purely utopian.

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colliding
05/06/23 5:26:17 PM
#29:


Leonhart4 posted...
Eh, the intro dialogue to the game says that Delita was regarded by history as a good king, even if the real story isn't quite that rosy. Tactics is more anti-religion than anti-monarchy.

Tactics was my first thought and I think it still fits the bill.

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Mewtwo59
05/06/23 5:37:28 PM
#30:


MacArrowny posted...
Edelgard's route in 3 Houses is definitely anti-monarchy. Her goal is to conquer the continent then disband the nobility, despite that meaning she'll become a peasant.

Edelgard stays emperor in every single one of her endings. In some, she retires when she gets older, but nothing about them implies that she ends the monarchy, just changes it from a family based succession to "emperor picks their successor."

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andylt
05/06/23 5:37:30 PM
#31:


Some great points raised, thanks all. I hadn't considered how the very personal role of monarchs in stories makes them much easier to dramatise than political systems that don't centre on an individual. OTOH, games clearly have no problem going after entire religions.

It's funny that a lot of the examples given seem to have an asterisk to them. FFT is a curious one though, I think it does generally let the player come to their own conclusions, for better or worse.

I guess I should get Three Houses sometime, Edelgard sounds interesting as a character (I lost interest in FE after burning out on the 3DS games and Heroes). And as always I will take note of FFXIV. Never heard of Growlanser before but colour me intrigued!

Aecioo posted...
Yeah, I think wRPGs in general tend to be more anti-monarchy, or anti-those in charge more broadly.
Hm this is an interesting thought, at a glance I'd believe this as well but I couldn't say for sure.

foolm0r0n posted...
And do you mean anti medieval monarchy? Or anti modern monarchy? It's one thing to say "fictional kings in castles are bad" and another to go against the cultural grip that the royal family has over the world, or against the very real monarchies in countries like Saudi Arabia
Either. I was focusing on medieval monarchy as that seems far more prevalent in games but if there's modern stories that take anti-royal stances I'd enjoy them as well!

TeamRocketElite posted...
Oh, it just hit me that this topic came up because of the King Charles coronation. >_>
Haha, I've actually been thinking about this topic for some time. But yeah that did bring it to the forefront of my mind today so it isn't unrelated!

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KamikazePotato
05/06/23 5:44:11 PM
#32:


Skies of Arcadia is mostly anti-monarchy. Good nobles are treated like the exception, not the rule.

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Mewtwo59
05/06/23 5:49:55 PM
#33:


KamikazePotato posted...
Skies of Arcadia is mostly anti-monarchy. Good nobles are treated like the exception, not the rule.

That one still ended with Enrique being the 'good' monarch taking the throne and saving the day.

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MacArrowny
05/06/23 5:57:31 PM
#34:


Three Houses Spoilers I guess <_< :

Mewtwo59 posted...
Edelgard stays emperor in every single one of her endings. In some, she retires when she gets older, but nothing about them implies that she ends the monarchy, just changes it from a family based succession to "emperor picks their successor."
"As the Adrestian emperor, Edelgard appointed Ferdinand as her prime minister, and the two devoted themselves to ruling Fodlan. Their sharply contrasting views made for frequent and lively debate, but with each enhancing the perspective of the other, Fodlan was better for it. As they worked tirelessly to create a better future, they were soon bound together by marriage as well. Their children, born to those who had torn down the old social hierarchy, were encouraged to choose their own paths."

Most of her endings mention reforming the class system. Some mention a successor, others don't. I feel like the implication is supposed to be that the imperial system isn't long for the world, but I could have a skewed interpretation.

HeroDelTiempo17 posted...
Also double post here but I missed this - FF14 has very blatant subtext about its ideal form of government being some form of democratic socialism. While most of the governments in that game are shown to be corrupt or in need of reform, there's multiple communal societies that get to be purely utopian.
I feel like Doma goes against that, but maybe not.

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HeroDelTiempo17
05/06/23 6:13:00 PM
#35:


MacArrowny posted...
I feel like Doma goes against that, but maybe not.

Yeah I thought about Doma after the fact. Though even Doma ends up as "Japan forms and leads the United Nations" which on one hand is still a vision of mutual cooperation between nations, on the other there's absolutely some nationalism going on with that (Hein is absolutely a "one good king" which, lol. lmao.). It's in a weird spot.

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BlackMageJawa
05/06/23 7:37:00 PM
#36:


I think part of the reason for this is that "We toppled the evil ruler and installed a good one in their place" makes for a neater resolution than "We toppled our entire system of government, I'm sure this new one will work out better".

You can establish that the new king/queen is good by having them be a good character. It's much harder for an RPG to establish the relative benefits of a democracy in the middle of a dungeon crawl. Sure, most of the audience probably would consider it to be an improvement, but if it's not part of the story, it's still going to feel like a loose end.

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LiquidOshawott
05/06/23 7:39:30 PM
#37:


Pretty sure there are a couple New Vegas endings that fit this

but the fact that you can choose is proof that its probably not the case

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Raka_Putra
05/06/23 8:09:31 PM
#38:


Suikoden I, kinda. It replaced Scarlet Moon Empire with Toran Republic, but a big part of it was because the Emperor was crazy and evil instead of the form of government necessarily.

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LeonhartFour
05/06/23 8:17:57 PM
#39:


is there a Tales game that's anti-monarchy

I feel like a lot of Tales games are anti-status quo (whatever form it happens to take) at the very least

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WarThaNemesis2
05/06/23 8:21:53 PM
#40:


LeonhartFour posted...
is there a Tales game that's anti-monarchy

I feel like a lot of Tales games are anti-status quo (whatever form it happens to take) at the very least

Tales of Symphonia is anti-basically anything.

Mayors? Bad.
Kings? Bad.
Popes? Bad.
Rich people? Bad.
Poor people? Bad.
Six year olds not being laborers? Bad.

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paperwarior
05/06/23 8:37:28 PM
#41:


Berseria probably would be if they didn't live in a theocracy. Abyss has you juggling international diplomacy and lost technology devices to keep all of humanity from dying. You have to at least work with some monarchs for that.

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Kenri
05/06/23 8:56:24 PM
#42:


BlackMageJawa posted...
I think part of the reason for this is that "We toppled the evil ruler and installed a good one in their place" makes for a neater resolution than "We toppled our entire system of government, I'm sure this new one will work out better".

You can establish that the new king/queen is good by having them be a good character. It's much harder for an RPG to establish the relative benefits of a democracy in the middle of a dungeon crawl. Sure, most of the audience probably would consider it to be an improvement, but if it's not part of the story, it's still going to feel like a loose end.
You could always replace the bad monarch with a good president or something. But generally speaking I think you're right that it makes for a neater story not to go down that road unless it's the entire crux of the plot.

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squexa
05/06/23 9:17:19 PM
#43:


andylt posted...
A random question but it's one I've been thinking about. The plots of RPGs often involve challenging corrupt and unaccountable authority on behalf of the commonfolk- it's become a gag that you wind up killing god, the ultimate authority figure, at the end of so many stories. I'm fond of the genre, but I find that for some reason medieval JRPGs in particular seem beholden to pro-monarchy angles, despite monarchy at its core representing the same inequality and injustice the parties usually wind up fighting against.

Whether it's a secret princess, a young prince learning what it means to lead his country, and/or helping the rightful heir reclaim their throne from an evil usurper, the same beats are hit again and again. Maybe it's simply part of the set dressing of the era, obviously these tropes extends far beyond RPGs and video games as a whole, but does anyone have examples of solid gaming stories that involve monarchies without having a 'good' one to place on the throne and save the day? It doesn't have to be JRPGs but that seems to be the genre that features monarchies most prominently.

It's very uncommon and I think part of it has to be because most RPGs by design emphasize exceptionalism. You usually have a small band of "chosen people" that are the only ones that can affect the fate of the world. Many of them have literal god given divine powers that puts them above 99% of humanity who would be lost and powerless without the benevolence of the player party. Introducing anti-monarchism in an innately pro-exceptionalist world becomes complicated and contradictory unless its fairly low fantasy or it's an intentional deconstruction or something.

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LiquidOshawott
05/06/23 9:32:17 PM
#44:


LeonhartFour posted...
is there a Tales game that's anti-monarchy

I feel like a lot of Tales games are anti-status quo (whatever form it happens to take) at the very least

Arise definitely fits here

edit oh wait Dohalim

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KamikazePotato
05/06/23 9:42:31 PM
#45:


I think if we're being this stringent with our requirements we're not going to find many examples from popular culture media. I can't remember the last time a story ended with a big governmental paradign shift.

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MacArrowny
05/06/23 10:07:59 PM
#46:


KamikazePotato posted...
I think if we're being this stringent with our requirements we're not going to find many examples from popular culture media. I can't remember the last time a story ended with a big governmental paradign shift.
Return of the Jedi, baby.

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Leonhart4
05/06/23 10:12:54 PM
#47:


MacArrowny posted...
Return of the Jedi, baby.

Technically this is the end of every Star Wars trilogy...!

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HeroDelTiempo17
05/06/23 10:31:25 PM
#48:


KamikazePotato posted...
I think if we're being this stringent with our requirements we're not going to find many examples from popular culture media. I can't remember the last time a story ended with a big governmental paradign shift.

The popular series I can think of that come out hard against authoritarianism governments or whatever as major themes tend to have downer or bittersweet endings, not aspirational ones.

It might be hard to justify that for 60+ hour JRPGs

edit: Well I say that but the original ending of FF7, before the compilation stuff is uh...pretty ambiguous

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tcaz2
05/06/23 10:49:55 PM
#49:


FF14 is legitimately the only one I can think of.

Suikoden has shades of it, but it's not really a focus.
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LightningStrikes
05/07/23 5:14:46 AM
#50:


On Doma in FFXIV its very much the exception and I think it is partially a result of highlighting many different places through different writers. It should be said that FFXIVs nature as a giant serialised story is what helps it actually show alternative forms of government coming about.

If Heavensward we a standalone game it would probably just end with we defeated the corrupt monarchic theocracy, yay! However, as it can show in detail where things go from there over a longer time you can see the transition into a parliamentary democracy.

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