Current Events > Any advice for Slay The Spire? Specifically for Defect

(+) Yeah! (+)

I've been to the boss of Act III, usually dying in Act II

Abuse broken energy mechanics and avoid falling into the trap of thinking that you are going to ever want some type of "long game."

Most of my wins with defect came from scratch decks

Fill your deck with Claws. Alternatively, fill it with lightning orb powers. Just go with whichever of those two you find first in the run. They're both like my favorite decks in the game.

Learn how absurd some of his unassuming cards can be. Upgraded Hologram is totally sick.

Man Defect is my favorite, not sure if I play it right, but I always go full in on orb slots and just amass as much as possible.

The "power five" for Defect are Electrodynamics, Glacier, Defragment, Biased Cognition, and Buffer. Pick them up whenever you can. Capacitor and Chaos and Rainbow are great if you're spamming orbs and Hyper Beam is situationally good (especially early into a run). The other main playstyle for Defect is 0-cost, and I think you can figure out how to play that on your own.

thanks. I'll save these responses

and keep trying x_x

You can always make genetic algorithm work.
Also, Echo form is one of the most broken cards in the game

Claw is a horrible card. Strongly advise avoiding it unless you literally cannot find any other attacks or scaling and already have card draw.

General advice of picking up attacks early in act 1 applies as normal. Defect has a unique option in Compile Driver for an attack that scales into extremely strong card draw later in the run. Another strong early option is Sweeping Beam. Beam Cell is generally not worth the card draw unless your deck already has a ton of reasons to want it, but Go for the Eyes can be valuable later in the run. Bullseye is another decent early option. Hyper Beam solves your act 1 and does well in act 2 as a finisher, but has a lot of problems later in the run, so only take it while you still need it. Core Surge is amazing in general.

Most Defect runs will be based around orb mechanics, because this is Defect's strongest scaling. Priorities with orb scaling are generally Focus first, then Orb slots and Loop stacks. Frost orbs are the most important to find because they are very hard to replace. Coolheaded is an amazing way to generate frost, because it also functions as card draw (it's a good upgrade once you have your early damage settled). Glacier is great as well for giving you access to a lot of frost and defensive power for one card pick, but there is a point where you can have too many. Having access to a dark orb (even just one) can save you a lot of trouble by the act 2 boss, if you haven't found tons of focus yet, since it solves the boss fights for you (as long as you have enough attacks to kill minions). If you end up getting plasma going (which relies on either having a way to discount Meteor Strike, generate the energy for it reliably, take Nuclear Battery, or take and upgrade a Fusion, all of which are situational), then you can make a lot of use of Multicast and Reinforced Body, especially if you get Calipers.

Genetic Algorithm is a card that most people very dramatically undervalue. Play it four times or so and it's a good card; play it a dozen times and it's one of the best tools to set up in the game. You can't take it if you're about to die, though.

Apparitions, Bag of Preparation, and Anchor are extremely high value on Defect. Defect's biggest issue is that it needs to set up focus and orbs, and it tends to have very bad turn 1s. Anything that helps your turn 1 is extremely important. Once you have a consistent turn 1, scaling focus up to 6+ with a few orb slots and good card draw should beat anything.

Echo Form is generically incredibly strong and does not take long to pay back its cost and much more, but you do need to be able to play it when you draw it (again, that turn 1 issue). Creative AI is incredibly slow but infinite scaling that can work if your deck is in an OK spot to start out fights but lacks the powers to keep up in very long fights--works best with relics that synergize with powers.

This is also a general thing that you want to do for every class, but try to remove strikes and defends if you can. It's even more important for the Defect to do this since most of your damage/defense is probably going to come from orbs and he doesn't have good ways to scale these cards like Ironclad (easier access to strength scaling) + Silent (easier access to dexterity scaling) nor the insane damage potential of the Watcher (who can still make decent use of strikes even in Act 3 thanks to Wrath/Divinity).

Granted that doesn't mean you should always take strike/defend removal. Like if you go into a shop and you see a card or relic that will be a big boost to your deck, then it might be better to go for that. And if you get the Act 2 event that let's you upgrade all strikes/defends or remove 1, then it's probably better to go for the upgrade since the card removal only seems worth it if you've already removed a decent amount of strikes/defends before the event comes up.

Also don't underestimate artifact on Defect. Artifact usually isn't that useful on the other classes (except Silent due to Wraith Form), but the Defect can make great use out of it because it makes Biased Cognition (which is already one of the Defect's best cards even with the drawback) even better by removing the drawback if you can play it while an artifact is up. It also works well with some of the other Defect cards, but the synergy with BC is the main reason to consider picking up the artifact relic or the attack card that gives you an artifact.

I mean, Watcher hates strikes and defends more than the others because 1) they aren't Watcher cards (her cards are so power crept that drawing basics instead is a large power difference) and 2) Watcher goes infinite off of just finding Rushdown and any one of (Sundial, Violet Lotus, Inner Peace, Fear No Evil, Madness, Meditate + Establishment, Enlightenment+) as long as she has no more than ten cards in her deck that don't remove themselves during combat. The more interesting difference with Watcher is that she hates Defends way more than the other three at all points in the run.

Routing is quite critical.

Try and limit your first 7 locations to only 3 combats total in Act 1.

On the 4th fight, the game triggers a much more terrible encounter.

In Act 2 and 3, there's only 2 easy pool fights before they all become horrible.

Also, everything Rowan mentioned. :P

Here's a basic starting guide.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LzL_gnXrDsK8cFfkGEQmJncnlPVZZsqxoRZShZssicw/edit

I'm pretty bad myself but I'll try to add to what these guys have been saying.

For act 1 you need to think about two things: can you kill the elites and can you kill the boss? Usually you need a big single target damage card and some defense. An upgraded Streamline or that big 3 energy for 32 damage is good. Orb generation is good. Generally taking cards for a future synergy is always risky compared to upfront improvement.

For act 2 you want aoe, since many fights, elites and bosses can be quite nasty if you don't have damage that scales with number of enemies.

If you see pellets in a shop it's almost always worth it. Making somewhat big decks isn't awful on defect. Turbo and Aggregate are incredible for energy but need upgrades. Overheat is not so good for card draw though. Better to stick with Skim, Coolheaded, or Compile driver. The AI card that gives you a new power each turn can win long fights for you, but make sure to not focus too much on it during short regular fights. Same with Echo form really. It's easy to want to use it a little bit too much when you could just skip it. An upgraded Recycle can turn big cards that you don't need anymore like Hyperbeam into a source of energy. It's also a key component of defect infinite setups.

thanks everyone. I'm making further runs, but a lot depends on the orbs / cards/ artifacts . can't say I'm an expert on which ones interact best with each other

So I just "won" for the first time, on a daily climb (not the real one)

What's up with the heart at the end

TroutPaste posted...

So I just "won" for the first time, on a daily climb (not the real one)

What's up with the heart at the end

It's a sort of tease to let you know that Act 3 isn't the actual final act. There's a secret 4th Act, but you won't be able to access it until you win 1 run with the Ironclad, Silent, and Defect (and I think it has to be done on a normal run).

While we're here, can y'all give me tips for the watcher? It's the one character I don't think I *get*.

The most consistent builds seem to be quality orb generation since they are not affected by either frailty or weakness.

Lose your Strikes.

Hoard up as many power cards as possible, since once played, they're removed and no longer weigh down your deck.

Also, have a calculator handy. :P

LordFarquad1312 posted...

While we're here, can y'all give me tips for the watcher? It's the one character I don't think I *get*.

Have cards to enter wrath and enough damage to kill everything on the same turn. Get copies of Scrawl. Take energy upgrades so you have absolutely no need to take energy relics other than Holy Water or Violet Lotus if offered. Remove as many cards as possible, like to the point where you seriously consider 175 gold card removes over the best relics in the game in a shop.

When killing in one turn stops working in like, act 3, you either have an infinite with Rushdown or enough Mental Fortress/Talk to the Hand and Flurry of Blows that you just block for 100 every turn without actually doing anything but attacking. (I'm exaggerating a bit--you do want to take the cards to enter calm for 0 or 1 energy so you can both leave Wrath and generate enough energy.)

Unless it's one of those weird runs where you get several copies of Omniscience and can do whatever the hell you want on turn 1, be it "play Blasphemy/double play Worship and kill everything on turn 1" or "double play every scaling card in my deck."

IDK, it's hard to describe Watcher because the character wins no matter what you do while spending turn 1 wishing for gold in the final boss fights. You can win runs off making Just Lucky an insane card with scry synergies and strength/dex gain. You can win runs off Deva Form and Cut Through Fate. You can win runs off calm/wrath stance swapping that doesn't try to go infinite and just does a billion damage with Flurry of Blows. You can win runs off Blasphemy + Ritual Dagger. Like the character is super, super broken and has like a 90%+ win rate when played well on the hardest difficulty + act 4.

If you are finding Watcher hard, you may not be doing math for your turns in advance and planning your turns out, checking all options for lethal/most enemies killed while taking minimum damage (this is mandatory to do well at the game with every character).

Take focus, orb slots, and glacier.

ty everyone

get rid of your basic strike cards ASAP in favor of better damage cards

a small deck is a more reliable deck

VampireCoyote posted...

get rid of your basic strike cards ASAP in favor of better damage cards

a small deck is a more reliable deck

Small decks on characters other than Watcher tend to be dead decks, because you need to take a lot of frontloaded damage cards early in order to improve your average hand enough to survive act 1, then take enough scaling to survive the rest of the game, and take enough frontloaded defense to set up that scaling/balance out the attacks you took early. For Watcher, taking more cards makes for an easier early game but a harder late game, generally. Usually non-Watcher characters will finish with at least 30 cards in their deck. (This does not at all prevent their decks from being consistent, btw. It is still fairly common for Ironclad to be able to generate obscene amounts of output on turn 1 because of his ridiculous Corruption/Dark Embrace engine and/or Burning Pact/Offering, for Silent to use Wraith Form, Piercing Wail, and Malaise to stall out fights until she has her wincon set up or just draw her whole deck off Acrobatics, or for Defect to make its turn 1 consistent with energy generation + card draw, Seek, or relics).

the_rowan posted...

Small decks on characters other than Watcher tend to be dead decks, because you need to take a lot of frontloaded damage cards early in order to improve your average hand enough to survive act 1, then take enough scaling to survive the rest of the game, and take enough frontloaded defense to set up that scaling/balance out the attacks you took early. For Watcher, taking more cards makes for an easier early game but a harder late game, generally. Usually non-Watcher characters will finish with at least 30 cards in their deck. (This does not at all prevent their decks from being consistent, btw. It is still fairly common for Ironclad to be able to generate obscene amounts of output on turn 1 because of his ridiculous Corruption/Dark Embrace engine and/or Burning Pact/Offering, for Silent to use Wraith Form, Piercing Wail, and Malaise to stall out fights until she has her wincon set up or just draw her whole deck off Acrobatics, or for Defect to make its turn 1 consistent with energy generation + card draw, Seek, or relics).

I couldnt disagree more and Ive played thousands of hours of the game across the different platforms

get those strike cards out of your deck

Taking notes, I love the game but basically suck at it. Gotten to the end of act 3 about 10 times but never beat it, came within 30 enemy health once. I never explored or even worked on a custom deck, I use what's thrown at me which is likely part of my issue.

VampireCoyote posted...

I couldnt disagree more and Ive played thousands of hours of the game across the different platforms

get those strike cards out of your deck

I don't see where in my post it says not to remove strikes. But literally every single player who win streaks ascension 20 heart (myself included) knows that small decks are generally shit in this game and there is no reason to aim for them, except on Watcher because she needs to take like 2 cards to win the game. Ironclad is significantly more likely to win a run with 40 cards in his deck at his end than with 10, unless he found an infinite, in which case both probably win 100% of the time anyway.

the_rowan posted...

I don't see where in my post it says not to remove strikes. But literally every single player who win streaks ascension 20 heart (myself included) knows that small decks are generally shit in this game and there is no reason to aim for them, except on Watcher because she needs to take like 2 cards to win the game.

like I said I disagree, I find a smaller more reliable deck to be far more effective

VampireCoyote posted...

like I said I disagree, I find a smaller more reliable deck to be far more effective

You literally cannot build a "smaller, more reliable deck" without either being dead by the end of act 1 or not killing enough elites to beat act 4, unless you're playing low ascension, in which case your opinion is irrelevant.

There are FAR more ways in this game to make a large deck consistent than there are to survive act 1 without picking frontloaded damage cards that force you to pick more cards to make your deck consistent again later.

the_rowan posted...

I don't see where in my post it says not to remove strikes. But literally every single player who win streaks ascension 20 heart (myself included) knows that small decks are generally shit in this game and there is no reason to aim for them, except on Watcher because she needs to take like 2 cards to win the game. Ironclad is significantly more likely to win a run with 40 cards in his deck at his end than with 10, unless he found an infinite, in which case both probably win 100% of the time anyway.

What? I watch Baalor a fair bit and Jorbs as well. Both agree that card remove is stronger the more you do it. I can't speak for everyone but I've gotten the feeling that most high level players think that a small deck, generally speaking, is something to shoot for, unless there's a particular mechanic they're after. Like yeah of course Ironclad will want a lot of cards if he relies heavily on exhausting them.

But in the end it's probably better to know the pros and cons of big decks rather than just blindly preferring one over the other, then TC might be able to start making more informed decisions.

I tried the Silent and made it to the Act 3 boss... missed the orbs, though