Poll of the Day > Okay for real why are so many people still transphobes

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VampireCoyote
07/05/22 11:14:16 PM
#1:


I dont normally delve into reddit comments but I guess Macy Gray said a thing and some people are getting some really bigoted stuff off of their chests

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agesboy
07/05/22 11:16:26 PM
#2:


because people hate admitting they're wrong, so they'll stick to their guns their entire life if it's something they were convinced to feel strongly about

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SKARDAVNELNATE
07/05/22 11:23:05 PM
#3:


They're not actually phobic. They just don't agree with the underlying premise behind it.

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VampireCoyote
07/05/22 11:28:39 PM
#4:


SKARDAVNELNATE posted...
They're not actually phobic. They just don't agree with underlying premise behind it.

well trans people exist, so they are wrong

and transphobic

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Cruddy_horse
07/05/22 11:29:56 PM
#5:


"Because it's against Science" or some variation is the usual defense, I've never seen someone able to accurately describe what they mean by that though, and it's always just an Elementary level blanket statement they can pull out of thier ass to vaguely justify thier bigotry.

It's particularly hilarious and quite sad when Conservatives do it, as if 99% actually listen to science unless it's justifies thier world view.

For what it's worth I don't think the internet streotype of Trans people getting angry whenever you misgender them to the point of violence doesn't help, lots of Trans people put on the "Don't ever misgender me or I'll beat you with a bat" front and create a negative stigma to people who would otherwise be supportive of it. I'm not trans but a couple of people have talked about it to me when they meet someone who is trans and they're worried what they'll do if they misgender them since they want to avoid drama.

And I want to make it clear I understand that getting misgendered is uncomfortable and it's something all trans people likely have to deal with at some point, but this is just me theorizing.
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VampireCoyote
07/05/22 11:33:33 PM
#6:


theres a world of difference between someone making an innocent mistake and someone being passively aggressive or just aggressive with misgendering or deadnaming someone

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SKARDAVNELNATE
07/05/22 11:35:24 PM
#7:


VampireCoyote posted...
well trans people exist, so they are wrong
Yes, people who are trans exist. Being trans doesn't change their biological composition.

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Cruddy_horse
07/05/22 11:36:07 PM
#8:


VampireCoyote posted...
theres a world of difference between someone making an innocent mistake and someone being passively aggressive or just aggressive with misgendering or deadnaming someone

For sure, but what I was gettin at is that a lot of poeple I mentioned come off as having a "No tolerance" policy for even accidental incidents.

SKARDAVNELNATE posted...
They're not actually phobic. They just don't agree with the underlying premise behind it.


That's not how this works. You can't disagree with someones existence, unless you want to be a Nazi.
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SKARDAVNELNATE
07/05/22 11:43:42 PM
#9:


Cruddy_horse posted...
That's not how this works. You can't disagree with someones existence, unless you want to be a Nazi.
You make a good point. I'm going to change my position on this issue. It's not that people don't agree with the underlying premise behind it. It's that any disagreement is an attack whether someone exists instead of considering what the disagreement really is.

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agesboy
07/05/22 11:44:42 PM
#10:


SKARDAVNELNATE posted...
Yes, people who are trans exist. Being trans doesn't change their biological composition.
sex isn't what's being discussed, gender is

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VampireCoyote
07/05/22 11:45:26 PM
#11:


SKARDAVNELNATE posted...
You make a good point. I'm going to change my position on this issue. It's not that people don't agree with the underlying premise behind it. It's that any disagreement is an attack whether someone exists instead of considering what the disagreement really is.

so what is the disagreement

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DeathMagnetic80
07/05/22 11:53:49 PM
#12:


It's futile to try and explain the difference between biological sex and gender expression to chuds, they seem to be willfully ignorant and incapable of actual learning. This isn't even an advanced concept, I legit learned about it in Human Sexuality in community college like, 20 years ago. Its part of a 100 level course.
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SKARDAVNELNATE
07/06/22 12:05:01 AM
#13:


agesboy posted...
sex isn't what's being discussed, gender is
I thought we were discussing attitudes toward trans people.

VampireCoyote posted...
so what is the disagreement
Whether pronouns refer to sex or gender.

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VampireCoyote
07/06/22 12:05:37 AM
#14:


SKARDAVNELNATE posted...
Whether pronouns refer to sex or gender.

when does that matter

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agesboy
07/06/22 12:14:18 AM
#15:


why are you obsessed with other people's genitals

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SKARDAVNELNATE
07/06/22 12:15:47 AM
#16:


VampireCoyote posted...
when does that matter
Twitter has rules about using the wrong pronoun to refer to someone.
Canada passed a law about using the wrong pronoun to refer to someone.
There are videos of trasns people getting upset about being referred to with the wrong pronoun.

I can't begin to fathom why it matters let alone when so maybe a trans person should explain it. I just think it would be helpful if there was some agreement of what aspect of a person pronouns reffer to.

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Phantom_Nook
07/06/22 12:22:11 AM
#17:


"trans people are icky,s o they shouldn't have rights."
that about sums it up.

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VampireCoyote
07/06/22 12:22:35 AM
#18:


SKARDAVNELNATE posted...
Twitter has rules about using the wrong pronoun to refer to someone.
Canada passed a law about using the wrong pronoun to refer to someone.
There are videos of trasns people getting upset about being referred to with the wrong pronoun.

I can't begin to fathom why it matters let alone when so maybe a trans person should explain it. I just think it would be helpful if there was some agreement of what aspect of a person pronouns reffer to.

the person, it refers to the person

and theres nothing wrong with that twitter rule

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agesboy
07/06/22 12:23:59 AM
#19:


well if you use the wrong pronoun apologize and use the right one, and literally noone is going to ban or prosecute you then

can you do that?

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SKARDAVNELNATE
07/06/22 12:33:18 AM
#20:


agesboy posted...
well if you use the wrong pronoun apologize and use the right one, and literally noone is going to ban or prosecute you then

can you do that?
The words I speak and the text I type are a product of the labor of my body. Any pronouns included therein are my pronouns and no one else has any claim to them or any say in how I use them.

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VampireCoyote
07/06/22 12:33:51 AM
#21:


SKARDAVNELNATE posted...
The words I speak and the text I type are a product of the labor of my body. Any pronouns included therein are my pronouns and no one else has any claim to them or any say in how I use them.

fucking hell

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agesboy
07/06/22 12:34:57 AM
#22:


SKARDAVNELNATE posted...
The words I speak and the text I type are a product of the labor of my body. Any pronouns included therein are my pronouns and no one else has any claim to them or any say in how I use them.
so you're incapable

rip :(

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BigOlePappy
07/06/22 2:24:24 AM
#23:


SKARDAVNELNATE posted...
Yes, people who are trans exist. Being trans doesn't change their biological composition.

It is hard though because if you don't use the pronouns of that specific system, it is sometimes attributed to bigotry. I think it has become a moral feud between two sides, both citing science and both seeing it as a moral issue.

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ReturnOfFa
07/06/22 2:38:47 AM
#24:


a lot of people are insecure and learned how to be abusive douchebags from their parents

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DocDelicious
07/06/22 2:44:34 AM
#25:


Two things;
There's a growing stigma that the majority of trans people are basement dwelling virgins with severe porn addictions who transition specifically to make themselves into sex objects.

There's also a growing stigma that trans children are simply fashion accessories for their white mothers, much in the same way that having a gay friend was a fashion accessory for white women in the 2000's.

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VampireCoyote
07/06/22 2:52:49 AM
#26:


DocDelicious posted...
Two things;
There's a growing stigma that the majority of trans people are basement dwelling virgins with severe porn addictions who transition specifically to make themselves into sex objects.

There's also a growing stigma that trans children are simply fashion accessories for their white mothers, much in the same way that having a gay friend was a fashion accessory for white women in the 2000's.

Ive never heard of either of those stigmas

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Cruddy_horse
07/06/22 3:22:41 AM
#27:


VampireCoyote posted...
Ive never heard of either of those stigmas

Yeah what? Those seem randomly made up
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DocDelicious
07/06/22 3:32:52 AM
#28:


VampireCoyote posted...
Ive never heard of either of those stigmas

Really? Trans neckbeard memes are all over Reddit and there have been news pieces about trans kids as fashion accessories.

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VampireCoyote
07/06/22 3:47:17 AM
#29:


DocDelicious posted...
Really? Trans neckbeard memes are all over Reddit and there have been news pieces about trans kids as fashion accessories.

most Reddit meme subs are skeevy little hatechambers

r/196 is one of the only ones that is actually funny

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DocDelicious
07/06/22 4:00:09 AM
#30:


VampireCoyote posted...
r/196 is one of the only ones that is actually funny

Funny because that's where I've seen most of the memes. 196 started as a 4chan rule tho so that makes perfect sense.

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Thunk00
07/06/22 4:02:25 AM
#31:


Most transphobes come from a background of very limited educational achievement and typically live a lifestyle with a pretty high level of violence, distrust, and negative emotions generally. From what I've seen, most of the people who perpetuate attacks against transgender people have a pretty extensive preexisting criminal record and exhibit numerous other prejudices as well. Retooling institutional culture isn't necessarily going to affect them at all because they're generally living countercultural lifestyles already.

Lots of the replies here are talking about cultural conservatives -- I don't think it's right to call them transphobic necessarily. Most of them just object to the extremely censorious rules that have been imposed around the issue in public discourse and disagree with offering transgender therapies that have permanent consequences as a first resort for kids and young people experiencing symptoms of what could be gender dysphoria.
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VampireCoyote
07/06/22 4:13:12 AM
#32:


DocDelicious posted...
Funny because that's where I've seen most of the memes. 196 started as a 4chan rule tho so that makes perfect sense.

youre full of it 196 did not originate from 4chan it originated from another temporary meme subreddit

and aside from r/traaaaaaaaaannnnnnnns its by far the most trans-supportive subreddit

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Gaawa_chan
07/06/22 4:14:48 AM
#33:


Phantom_Nook posted...
"trans people are icky,s o they shouldn't have rights."
that about sums it up.
^ This. It's an instinctive sense of either disgust, fear, or hatred, that they attempt to rationalize after the fact. They're working backwards from an instinctive, emotional conclusion.

Oh no I'm going off on a tangent somebody stop m-

To people fixated on control and hierarchy as being part of some sort of "natural order" (lol) or root of morality (lmao), LGBT+ people are easily the most subversive threat to their sensibilities on the surface. We're talking about people who think that your phenotypes at birth don't just functionally define you (in their eyes), but that they determine how you should be permitted to behave and how you deserve to be treated. You were born *THIS* way, therefore you are supposed to exist in *THIS* space and role in society, and if you do not, then you are clearly trying to degenerate society. This is also why they tend to be fixated on penalization rather than harm reduction. You can point out every day until the day you die that the best way to reduce abortions is to pair comprehensive sex education with birth control access, but it doesn't matter because they aren't interested in harm reduction; they want to control behavior and penalize deviance from said approved behavior. "It is the natural order that women get penalized for sex with pregnancy+birth+child-rearing. Abortion is in defiance of that natural order."

It's why even some secular countries are viciously anti-LGBT+, because this attitude is not necessarily reliant upon a religion but it IS very useful to authoritarian governments. One of my favorite videos touching on this is James Somerton's video on Chinese censorship of LGBT+ people. Parts 3 onward in that video are excellent for explaining why it is that oppressive States almost always bee-line for LGBT+ people.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIsQ502N0fg&t=1467s

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Yellow
07/06/22 4:35:00 AM
#34:


Idk, you have to put aside the bias of morality and realize that trans people have literally been around forever, they don't typically change their mind, scientific studies have validated the commitment to transition as a reasonable action to take, and lastly but most importantly, don't throw stones at mockingbirds. It's just a big jump for a lot of people who just recently learned to accept homosexuals as just a fundamental part of human nature, I was one of those people a while back and was able to change, but that's impossible to do if you're A) not capable of looking at the big picture, or B) part of some cult that controls the way you're allowed to think.

People with this weird thing called emotion don't always act in ways that make sense. They instead project emotional bias onto you, claiming you're too nice, but history shows that people don't really have an obective pro-nice-policy bias. It's more of a "cling to the old ways of thinking while scientific studies prove cigarettes cause cancer" bias, then slowly over time more people are convinced one way than they are the other because it's just harder and harder to paint the wrong picture the more scientific studies become well known facts.

I think the number of people learning to accept trans people is naturally going to grow faster than the people who don't, even if Fox News is actively hunting them for... sport and good fun.

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DocDelicious
07/06/22 4:41:42 AM
#35:


VampireCoyote posted...
youre full of it 196 did not originate from 4chan it originated from another temporary meme subreddit

eggirl is probably the most supportive outside of trans porn subs.

And rule 196 was a 4chan rule the same way that rule 34 was a 4chan rule.
"You must post before leaving the board".

If you see Rule#___ it originated on 4chan.

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Yellow
07/06/22 4:45:45 AM
#36:


SKARDAVNELNATE posted...
Twitter has rules about using the wrong pronoun to refer to someone.
Canada passed a law about using the wrong pronoun to refer to someone.
There are videos of trasns people getting upset about being referred to with the wrong pronoun.

I can't begin to fathom why it matters let alone when so maybe a trans person should explain it. I just think it would be helpful if there was some agreement of what aspect of a person pronouns reffer to.
Sadly those are vastly outweighed by the negative treatment trans people get. If our biggest problem is that they are too well protected... that's a very optimistic problem to have. Instead, I'm worried about moving somewhere else in case the government passes a bill legislating that trans acceptance is the equivalentt of child abuse. These next 30 years are going to slide downhill in that regard, fast.

My best friend irl is trans and well she doesn't really explain why. I'm not trans so I don't know why. It just hurts being rejected and dogpiled by people without a good reason who just don't have a good grasp on the situation.

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Gaawa_chan
07/06/22 4:52:17 AM
#37:


Yellow posted...
Sadly those are vastly outweighed by the negative treatment trans people get. If our biggest problem is that they are too well protected... that's a very optimistic problem to have. Instead, I'm worried about moving somewhere else in case the government passes a bill legislating that trans acceptance is the equivalentt of child abuse. These next 30 years are going to slide downhill in that regard, fast.

My best friend irl is trans and well she doesn't really explain why. I'm not trans so I don't know why. It just hurts being rejected and dogpiled by people without a good reason who just don't have a good grasp on the situation.
I think this is a good response. My general attitude towards pronouns is pretty simple. Pronouns are, for all intents and purposes, generic nicknames that exist for the convenience of whoever is speaking, so that you don't have to constantly say someone's name. If you're deliberately, repeatedly using a nickname for someone who has expressly told you not to do that and that they don't like it, you're not some sort of arbiter of truth; you're an asshole harassing someone.

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Straughan
07/06/22 5:03:57 AM
#38:


Transphobic people have always puzzled me ever since that one British film I saw in the 90s. Like so what? Someone wants to be a woman. Great film if you haven't seen it.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/a/user_image/7/0/8/AAfGAbAADa7E.jpg

The same way secular prudes have puzzled me. Literally no holy book, commonly dislike those with them, but no boobies allowed!!!

I recently heard about the Eldenzine drama on Twitter and this problem seems to be more and more common. I mean look, I'm biased toward tiddies, but still... it's time to get over them.

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Lokarin
07/06/22 5:26:54 AM
#39:


I think it's cuz of a 3way collision between OG transphobia overlapped with homophobia, a new sense of koinophilia sparked by the boomers, and Great Replacement Theory sparked by the alt-right

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LinkPizza
07/06/22 6:01:44 AM
#40:


SKARDAVNELNATE posted...
The words I speak and the text I type are a product of the labor of my body. Any pronouns included therein are my pronouns and no one else has any claim to them or any say in how I use them.

They do if youre referring to them. Thats like saying no one has any control over the names you call them Which is about the same level of stupidity

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adjl
07/06/22 11:51:24 AM
#41:


Gaawa_chan posted...
My general attitude towards pronouns is pretty simple. Pronouns are, for all intents and purposes, generic nicknames that exist for the convenience of whoever is speaking, so that you don't have to constantly say someone's name. If you're deliberately, repeatedly using a nickname for someone who has expressly told you not to do that and that they don't like it, you're not some sort of arbiter of truth; you're an a****** harassing someone.

Pretty much. There's no circumstance in which responding to "my name is X" with "no your name is Y" isn't a dick move. So don't do that unless you're trying to be a dick, and if you are trying to be a dick, don't be surprised if people think you're a dick.

SKARDAVNELNATE posted...
The words I speak and the text I type are a product of the labor of my body. Any pronouns included therein are my pronouns and no one else has any claim to them or any say in how I use them.

By definition, communication involves at least two parties. You axiomatically cannot communicate without having an audience that will interpret, respond to, and generate consequences for the things you say. Unless you're just talking to yourself alone in your room (in which case, say whatever you want, but that's not communication), suggesting that anything about communication is so unilaterally limited to you is just outright wrong.

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VampireCoyote
07/06/22 12:13:33 PM
#42:


DocDelicious posted...
eggirl is probably the most supportive outside of trans porn subs.

This is incorrect and ignorant for so many reasons

And rule 196 was a 4chan rule the same way that rule 34 was a 4chan rule.
"You must post before leaving the board".

If you see Rule#___ it originated on 4chan.

I see how you got confused but the word rule on 196 refers to the rule that you are supposed to post something before you leave the sub

and the number 196 was used because it was the room/dorm number of the group that made the original temporary sub. It was so popular though that after they closed it down as originally intended that someone made the permanent sub.

It has no connection to 4chan, so stop spreading misinformation.

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Muscles
07/06/22 12:23:25 PM
#43:


Gaawa_chan posted...
I think this is a good response. My general attitude towards pronouns is pretty simple. Pronouns are, for all intents and purposes, generic nicknames that exist for the convenience of whoever is speaking, so that you don't have to constantly say someone's name. If you're deliberately, repeatedly using a nickname for someone who has expressly told you not to do that and that they don't like it, you're not some sort of arbiter of truth; you're an asshole harassing someone.
I think that's a bad precedent to set for pronouns seeing as you don't get to pick your own nick name (I guess you can try but it's not going to stick), nick names are an exonym, so if you think pronouns should be too than cool.

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adjl
07/06/22 12:35:26 PM
#44:


Muscles posted...
I think that's a bad precedent to set for pronouns seeing as you don't get to pick your own nick name (I guess you can try but it's not going to stick), nick names are an exonym, so if you think pronouns should be too than cool.

"Hi, I'm *nickname*"

Poof, nickname picked. It's a lot harder to force a new one among people that already know you under a different name, but you can still absolutely shut down one you don't want, and anyone who insists on using the unwanted name in spite of your expressed wish that they stop is an asshole.

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VampireCoyote
07/06/22 1:01:17 PM
#45:


Muscles posted...
I think that's a bad precedent to set for pronouns seeing as you don't get to pick your own nick name (I guess you can try but it's not going to stick), nick names are an exonym, so if you think pronouns should be too than cool.

plenty of people pick their own nicknames or even change their names

stop finding the dumbest and most pedantic hills to die on

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#46
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LinkPizza
07/06/22 3:31:44 PM
#47:


adjl posted...
"Hi, I'm *nickname*"

Poof, nickname picked. It's a lot harder to force a new one among people that already know you under a different name, but you can still absolutely shut down one you don't want, and anyone who insists on using the unwanted name in spite of your expressed wish that they stop is an asshole.

What are you talking about? People pick their nicknames all the time

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#48
Post #48 was unavailable or deleted.
HornedLion
07/06/22 3:35:25 PM
#49:


I tried to say good bye but I choked.

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SKARDAVNELNATE
07/06/22 7:20:40 PM
#50:


Gaawa_chan posted...
Pronouns are, for all intents and purposes, generic nicknames that exist for the convenience of whoever is speaking, so that you don't have to constantly say someone's name. If you're deliberately, repeatedly using a nickname for someone who has expressly told you not to do that and that they don't like it, you're not some sort of arbiter of truth; you're an asshole harassing someone.
Let's consider that point. Pronouns are for the benefit of the speaker, and I suppose to some extent the audience, but not the subject being referenced. If the speaker keeps calling someone twinkle toes, but the person they are speaking to doesn't know whom they mean, that's not going to be convenient for the speaker. The person being referred to as twinkle toes is not a party to this exchange.

On the other hand, if the person referred to says they don't like the nickname someone has for them and they prefer to be called twinkle toes that also raises issues. No one else thinks of that person as twinkle toes and will think the speaker is an oddball for calling then that.

Usually a nickname is something you call someone when addressing that person. The issue of pronouns comes up when describing someone whom the speaker is not addressing.

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