Board 8 > Rank the Tracks Week 69: The White Stripe's Elephant (+ Forever Changes results)

(+) Yeah! (+)

Previous results can be seen here:
https://board8.fandom.com/wiki/Rank_the_Tracks

The rules:
1. Listen to the album in full
2. Rank every track on the album
3. For the results, there will be a curve at the top of each list; two additional points between #1 and #2, and one additional point for the next two ranks. This way, the songs that really stick out to someone get an edge that is not immediately negated by someone else putting it lower. In the case of Demon Days, someone's 15th track will get 1 point, 14th 2 points, 4th 12 points, 3rd 14 points, 2nd 16 points, and 1st 19 points. For albums with greater than 15 tracks, everything ranked below #15 will be given 0 points and the scale for the top 15 will be the same as a 15-track album. For albums with more than 20 tracks, you only have to list your top 15 (with 16-20, I still like having the average rank listed)
4. If you want to include comments for individual songs, I will compile them in the results
5. The results will be posted at the beginning of the next topic
6. The deadline to vote is Sunday, July 3 at 8:00 AM EST - though if you are for whatever reason listening to the album around that time, just say so in the topic and I can delay a bit
7. You can sign up to be added to the user cycle - the next person on the list will choose 3 albums which the other users will vote on for the next topic.
7a. To ensure people are being given an actual choice, the three nominated albums must be by different artists. You can otherwise stick to a similar sound or era.
7b. The tiebreaker for these polls will be whichever is listed first in the poll options - make sure to deliver the results in order of your own preference (which will hopefully have the added benefit of influencing people toward your first choice if they can't decide).

The White Stripes - Elephant track list:
1. Seven Nation Army
2. Black Math
3. There's No Home for You Here
4. I Just Don't Know What to Do With Myself
5. In the Cold, Cold Night
6. I Want to Be the Boy to Warm Your Mother's Heart
7. You've Got Her in Your Pocket
8. Ball and Biscuit
9. The Hardest Button to Button
10. Little Acorns
11. Hypnotize
12. The Air Near My Fingers
13. Girl, You Have No Faith in Medicine
14. Well It's True That We Love One Another

User Cycle:
7/3: darkx (Guns n Roses - Appetite for Destruction)
7/10: neonreaper (Faith No More - Angel Dust)
7/17: Great_Paul
7/24: jcgamer107
7/31: ChichiriMuyo
8/7: BlueCrystalTear
8/14: MetalmindStats
8/21: HBJDubs
8/28: Raetsel_Lapin
9/4: TheArkOfTurus
9/11: Steiner
9/18: Snake5555555555
9/25: Jesse_Custer
10/2: ZaziGuado
10/9: firefdr
10/16: Johnbobb
10/23: VeryInsane
10/30: CasanovaZelos
11/6: Seanchan
11/13: Giggsalot
11/20: RyoCaliente

Love - Forever Changes results

The participants sorted by deviation from final results:
VeryInsane (10)
Giggsalot (10)
CasanovaZelos (14)
neonreaper (16)
Seanchan (20)
Raetsel_Lapin (26)
HBJDubs (30)

General Album Comments

CasanovaZelos: My 16th favorite album of all time, though it also took me years to fully appreciate it. Sort of operates as the antithesis of The Velvet Underground & Nico - both released in the same year to minimal attention only to be elevated to all-time classic status by a later generation. Unlike The Velvet Underground and Nico, Forever Changes is ostensibly accessible - this is the psychedelic sound popular at the time. But it is simultaneously more explorative and subtler than most of its contemporaries. An air of unease pervades much of the record, and the subtle details make this an album unlike any other, even 50+ years later.

Seanchan: Did a first listen to Forever Changes yesterday. Definitely got some of that Beatles vibes from it. But older period Beatles; maybe Sgt. Peppers or White Album era. There was a couple of songs I was just waiting for Lennon or McCartney. Aside from that, it didn't immediately grab me. Definitely going to take some more listens to form an opinion.

BlueCrystalTear: First listen down.

I, uh, just finished the album and I don't even remember it. This basically turned into "forgettable background noise" like a mid-tier bar band, except for the last song. This is gonna take a couple more listens to appreciate.

VeryInsane: Pretty good album, feels like a time capsule of similar 60s psychedelia from the same time period (Doors, Zombies etc)

neonreaper: Good stuff

Giggsalot: oh hey, it's my week! this is for me the pinnacle of the summer of love, the psychedelic movement and 60s guitar rock in general, so i'm very happy to introduce this to people. the arrangements here are incredible, the lyrics are packed with memorable one-liners, and at least half the songs have all-time melody lines too. a few of the minor tracks in the second half make it hard for me to call this flawless, but the album pacing here is so perfect that by the end it's easy to overlook those. absolutely magical stuff.

Seanchan: Actually did 4 listens to this because of the more low-key nature of the music. I agree with a lot of the previous comments. There is a certain forgettable "background noise" quality, but at the same time there's some fun instrumentation and lyrics. I didn't find this too difficult to rank the tracks, though I feel like there's a gap between my top 5 and my bottom 6.

On the album level I'm more torn. I think I'd listen to this again but, from a week of play, I wouldn't say this is a favorite of mine. I've slotted it into a large group of "yeah okay" albums from this cycle.

Forever Changes track ranking

11. Old Man (Track #5)
Score: 19 (Average Rank: 9.29/11)
Biggest Fan(s): Raetsel_Lapin (#7)
Biggest Detractor(s): VeryInsane, HBJDubs, Seanchan (#11)

10. Bummer in the Summer (Track #10)
Score: 22 (Average Rank: 8.86/11)
Biggest Fan(s): HBJDubs, Seanchan (#5)
Biggest Detractor(s): Raetsel_Lapin, neonreaper, Giggsalot (#11)

9. The Daily Planet (Track #4)
Score: 26 (Average Rank: 8.29/11)
Biggest Fan(s): HBJDubs (#4)
Biggest Detractor(s): CasanovaZelos (#11)

8. The Good Humor Man He Sees Everything Like This (Track #9)
Score: 28 (Average Rank: 8/11)
Biggest Fan(s): neonreaper (#6)
Biggest Detractor(s): Giggsalot (#10)

7. Andmoreagain (Track #3)
Score: 37 (Average Rank: 6.86/11)
Biggest Fan(s): Raetsel_Lapin (#3)
Biggest Detractor(s): HBJDubs, Seanchan (#10)

6. Live and Let Live (Track #8)
Score: 49 (Average Rank: 5.71/11)
Biggest Fan(s): HBJDubs (#1)
Biggest Detractor(s): Raetsel_Lapin (#10)

5. Maybe the People Would Be the Times or Between Clark and Hilldale (Track #7)
Score: 51 (Average Rank: 5.29/11)
Biggest Fan(s): VeryInsane, Seanchan (#2)
Biggest Detractor(s): Raetsel_Lapin (#9)

4. The Red Telephone (Track #6)
Score: 51 (Average Rank: 5/11)
Biggest Fan(s): VeryInsane, Giggsalot (#3)
Biggest Detractor(s): Seanchan (#9)

3. A House is Not a Motel (Track #2)
Score: 67 (Average Rank: 3.71/11)
Biggest Fan(s): Raetsel_Lapin (#1)
Biggest Detractor(s): HBJDubs (#9)

2. You Set the Scenes (Track #11)
Score: 69 (Average Rank: 3.14/11)
Biggest Fan(s): Raetsel_Lapin, Giggsalot, HBJDubs (#2)
Biggest Detractor(s): neonreaper (#5)

1. Alone Again Or (Track #1)
Score: 92 (Average Rank: 1.86/11)
Biggest Fan(s): CasanovaZelos, VeryInsane, neonreaper, Giggsalot, Seanchan (#1)
Biggest Detractor(s): Raetsel_Lapin (#5)

Not usually the biggest fan of guitar rock, but Jack White is just that outstanding to have me regularly return to this album. "Seven Nation Army" is the obvious standout, but half of these could have been hit singles.

Seven Nation Army (#124 all-time)
The Hardest Button to Button (#2514)
Ball and Biscuit
I Just Don't Know What to Do With Myself
Girl, You Have No Faith in Medicine
Black Math
In the Cold, Cold Night
You've Got Her in Your Pocket
There's No Home for You Here
The Air Near My Fingers
I Want to Be the Boy to Warm Your Mother's Heart
Well It's True That We Love One Another
Little Acorns
Hypnotize

Tag

Didn't end up having the time at all last week to participate.

I don't have much time this week either but I've heard Elephant several times so I have no excuse

I'm back, in a big way

Tagging for now, will listen tomorrow probably.

Haven't heard anything from this album not named "Seven Nation Army" so it should be an interesting listen!

1. Ball and Biscuit
2. There's No Home for You Here
3. Hypnotize
4. Seven Nation Army
5. I Just Don't Know What to Do with Myself
6. Girl, You Have No Faith in Medicine
7. Well It's True That We Love One Another
8. Black Math
9. In the Cold, Cold Night
10. The Hardest Button to Button
11. Little Acorns
12. The Air Near My Fingers
13. I Want to Be the Boy to Warm Your Mother's Heart
14. You've Got Her in Your Pocket

Maybe I do like Icky Thump better...

bump

up

bump

1: Well It's True That We Love One Another
2: In the Cold, Cold Night
3: There's No Home For You Here
4: The Air Near My Fingers
5: Little Acorns
6: You've Got Her in Your Pocket
7: Girl, You Have No Faith in Medicine
8: I Just Don't Know What to Do With Myself
9: Hypnotize
10: I Want to Be the Boy to...
11: Black Math
12: Seven Nation Army
13: Ball and Biscuit
14: The Hardest Button to Button

uhh

Seven Nation Army
The Hardest Button To Button
Girl, You Have No Faith In Medicine
In The Cold, Cold Night
The Air Near My Fingers
Little Acorns
There's No Home For You Here
Black Math
Hypnotize
Ball and Biscuit
I Just Don't Know What To Do With Myself
I Want To Be The Boy To Warm Your Mother's Heart
You've Got Her In Your Pocket
Well It's True That We Love One Another

CasanovaZelos posted...

uhh

If someone maximizes their outlier score, do they still get counted toward the average?

I just completed my first listen (this was awesome; the only song from it I'd ever heard before was "Seven Nation Army") and my "first listen list" looks very little like the one right there lol

BlueCrystalTear posted...

If someone maximizes their outlier score, do they still get counted toward the average?

I just completed my first listen (this was awesome; the only song from it I'd ever heard before was "Seven Nation Army") and my "first listen list" looks very little like the one right there lol

I'm assuming you're talking about Raetsel_Lapin's list. Cuz, yeah, I did my preliminary ranking, looked at that list, and thought to myself "it's upside down!"

I have to admit I'm confused about why we're suddenly questioning whether someone's ranking should count just because it's really unconventional, especially when that someone has participated (and brought their self-admittedly unusual music opinions) to every single proper week we've done, I believe. I personally don't see why Raetsel's ranking's veracity should be in any serious doubt given that context, and as such, why it shouldn't be counted. Perhaps I'm just biased because I've had a fair few eyebrow-raising rankings of my own, though. ...the two clearest examples being from albums of bands with head in their name, for whatever reason.

Also, I think I'll be too busy to rank anything next week, though I should be able to make this week.

It was simply a perplexed uhh that should not be read into too much. I am familiar with Raetsel's voting habits but this one feels particularly impressive.

(and the solution to balancing out outliers is as simple as more people voting)

I am also going to be away from a computer two weekends from now - would someone be able to start that week's topic? I can calculate the results when I get back but it would be nice to make sure the following topic runs a full week.

I was thinking just extreme outliers being discounted for statistical calculations. Like consider the formula where x = the number of album tracks:
x * ((X-1)/2)

So 14 * 6.5 = 91.

It would be 105 for 15+ tracks, 78 for 13 tracks, 66 for 12 tracks, 55 for 11, 45 for 10 tracks, 36 for 9 tracks, 28 for 8 tracks, and 21 for 7 tracks.

Based on this, it's only happened thrice (yes, once was your Dream Theater ranking; the others being Raetsel for Moby and someone named... Epyo?) but there have been several close calls. This may be a close call or it may not. We'll see how the data lines up.

As someone with "Stats" in your username, I'm sure you know about outliers which skew the average in ways that don't accurately represent consensus. Perhaps if an outlier is spotted, two calculations can be done for averages.
~~
Anyway, second listen down. Good stuff. I'm starting to see how this is gonna end up but I gotta sort out the order within each tier. Will do that tomorrow.

I wasn't expecting to have to try to defend myself *now* when the fact that I'm incompatible with everyone in existence has been a documented fact for years and I've almost never explained or justified my rankings before, but I suppose I'll do my best. I'll try to divide this into two arguments, a personal one and one that tries to actually focus on the album itself.

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PERSONAL LEVEL:

When I say I'm "incompatible with everyone", I'm actually being fairly serious about that and there actually was proof of this in a few places back in the day though I don't have the evidence saved because, honestly, why would I? At a recent VGMC--I honestly can't recall if it was last year's or the one before that (though three years ago feels too far), one of the members created a program to visually chart the compatibility between all the regulars. Everyone who was a frequent participant had a node and there would be lines connecting each node to anyone else with a similar voting pattern. You could look at it and be like "ooh, here's the cluster of people that like *this* type of music and there's the cluster that likes *that* and here's someone that's right between the groups"--you know, that sort of thing.

I, and only like one or two others, were so utterly chaotic in our voting patterns that we were floating off the chart entirely without a single connecting line. Our tastes in music were not similar to anyone, not even each other. And that level of intense incompatibility cannot be faked or imitated. We're talking about hundreds of "which do you prefer between these two choices" questions being asked over the course of months with a vast number of participants. The amount of statistical analysis and planning it would take to deliberately fail to be like anyone else is so utterly mind boggling that I believe the chart should stand as definitive proof that I (and whoever else had the same issue) just have abnormal opinions on music.

There was another big VGM thing going on for a while where two or three songs would be posted per day and we'd rank them out of 10, though I think that went to Discord because no one else was participating on the board itself... I recall being the least compatible person with practically everyone else, though you'd need a several year old copy of the spreadsheet to check that data. (Actually I do believe the sheet calculated the average score for each song, so you could probably get relevant data by checking which songs I gave a very high or low rating to & comparing it to the average value, but why would you?)

---

Even just in this topic series, I should think my incompatibility is well documented, at least as of the second "Rate the Albums" portion. I really, really, really enjoyed the Spice Girls album that got last place---I don't know that I would say I loved it, but it was fantastic and I enjoyed every second of it. I have nothing positive to say about Silent Shout and it easily obtained first place. So... like... not sure how me not being compatible with anyone else in this series is news??

(Going back to the first set of albums, I feel Hamilton is easily the best album we've ever covered & a whole tier above everything that came before and after it; I don't know what placement it got right off hand, but I do recall my undying love for it being a statistical anomaly here. Though considering its critical acclaim, that may be a rare case of my views on something being more mainstream than other participants'.)

Either way, I -try- to keep my general insanity and bad opinions to a minimum. I save my writeups for my own personal topics, I keep the comments light and to a minimum, and I never tried nominating an album because I accept that we are incompatible & leaving me in charge of picking the music would likely destroy the series. (I have added myself to the user list, -but- I only plan on selecting albums that other people have nominated which didn't get picked because there are a handful that I really, really, really wanted to see win their weeks & I feel giving a second chance to a few special albums is a reasonable compromise. If that goes poorly, I'll quietly remove myself from the pool)

--

Aaanywho, I've been part of this series since day one. I love getting a chance to listen to music that I normally wouldn't--I've mentioned before that I don't actually listen to much new music on my own, so series like this & VGMC help "force" me to expand my horizons a bit. I also like that it's a very low pressure environment; listen to the album as many times as you want, whenever you want during the week, and there's no need to explain or justify anything. I'm honestly endlessly grateful to the host for allowing my participation thus far; that no matter how garbage my opinions are, or ill-defined they are, they're still just points of data that as relevant/irrelevant as everyone else's.

------------------------------------------------

ALBUM

(Apologies for the brutality. I normally would not post anything like this outside one of my topics where my opinion is explicitly requested.)

If an album has at least two songs that I would rank a 6/10, then I consider it to have been worth my time. That's the level where I'm willing to say I liked a song without additional caveats and if I geniunely liked at least two tracks, then I got something positive out of the experience. "Elephant" more than passes this test with three songs I think I'd say I liked, but it also has a lot of songs that I just do not care about While there are no songs I hated, I think I'm just not a fan of Jack White in general. I'm not going to take an aggressive "grr, argh, I never want to hear him again" stance (whenever I make a ludicrous claim like that, someone comes along and finds a song from an artist I allegedly hate which I absolutely love, so I've learned my lesson about completely dismissing people), but it's likely not a coincidence that my top two songs from the album include the one song performed by Meg & the one song done in a completely different style

While I dislike most of the album, it is notable that it does include at least some songs that are different enough experiences that I can say it's worth giving a listen even if you're not a fan in general, as it might offer a few surprises. It's also an oddly easy ranking; while I can't say it's an overwhelmingly diverse set of tracks, I find they all left a distinct enough impression that they were easy to score without falling into the "these songs are all so similar in quality that they're hard to rank" trap several other albums fall into.

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The Hardest Button to Button: I hate repetition. I know it's ironic that I've said that a million times and if you were to make a drinking game of "take a shot everytime Raetsel says she hates repetition" you will die of alcohol poisoning because I will repeat my hatred of repetition several times a day until the end of all time, but I do not think my hatred of lyrical repetition can ever be overstated. So would you care to guess what my reaction to a song that ends with THIS would be?:

<quote>The hardest button to button
The hardest button to button
The hardest button to button
The hardest button to button
Uh-oh
The hardest button to button
The hardest button to button
Uh-oh
The hardest button to button
The hardest button to button
The hardest button to button
The hardest button to button
The hardest button to button
The hardest button to button
Uh-oh</quote>

I don't hate this song. I cherish finding songs that I hate. They provide a unique opportunity to analyze why I have such a strong negative reaction, to do some real soul-searching, to try and understand myself better, to try and grow as a person and learn to appreciate new things. Anyone who successfully finds a song that I hate earns my gratitude, even if I don't properly show it, because finding that which I hate is arguably more important than finding that which I love. No, I do not hate this song. It commits the worst sin possible: It has "go away heat", to borrow a wrestling term. I'm not booing this song because I hate it, I'm not booing because it's doing it's job well, I'm booing because I want it to go away forever. I want to never hear it again. I want to live in a glorious world in which repeating one blasted sentence fragment over-and-over does not count as "lyrics" and I will never be troubled by songs like this again.

And there's nothing to analyze here, it is doing the ONE THING that I have complained about more than anything else in the history of the universe. I very strongly dislike this song because it is doing the thing that i very strongly dislike. ...And before anyone asks, no, i wasn't a fan of the song *before* it became completely intolerable. The outro just dropped the score from "actively disliked" to "very, very aggressively dislike and want to eradicate from existence". And normally I would not post anything this harsh because I don't want to ruin anyone else's enjoyment, but I guess we need to clarify things this week??

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Ball and Biscuit: A seven and a half minute long song that feels as though it takes a half-hour. The song starts off fine, but I lose interest in it well before the halfway point and then it just. never. ends. Cut the song off after the second verse and it rises several places--though I still wouldn't say I *liked* it--but this.... uggh... it's another song that goes on well after the point it ran out of things to say or do, becoming a miserable excercise in tedium. I don't want to eradicate it like "Button", but I'm okay with never having to endure it again.

[While not directly relevant here, I will say that I can make exceptions and give very high marks to songs that should have ended earlier *if* I love the rest of the track enough. For a song relevant to this series, the Kanye West song with the Chris Rock comedy bit stapled onto the end comes to mind. I wasn't wild about the comedy and think the song would be much stronger without it, but I feel the actual song was strong enough that I can say I liked it quite a bit even if I have to hit the skip button at the point it should have ended. The song I'm quoting in my sig is also the same way; I do not care even slightly about the prolonged instrumental that takes up half the song's runtime, but I've since come to love the first half of the song as 10/10 perfection so I'd say it's pretty damn fantastic even if I'm rarely going to listen to the full thing again. At no point does BaB do anything I enjoy enough to get a special exception.]

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Seven Nation Army: Honestly, I was not looking forward to this album because I had heard this song before and I absolutely did not care for it. I certainly don't hate it, more like I have a complete inability to care about any aspect of this song on any level. It is not for me, it is very much not for me, but it's... I acknowledge that it's for other people and that's as positive as I'm willing to get for it. Point is knowing that THIS song was the band's biggest hit and knowing how little I wanted to hear it again, I was concerned that this was going to be an album that I absolutely hated or possibly even the first one I had to skip out on ranking because it may have been too rough to endure, but I was pleasantly surprised to find out that *most* songs are better than this one.

...and yes, regardless of how it sounds, I did give it a fair chance. There are plenty of songs that I've hated or aggressive disliked and learned to love; it was hypothetically possible that I could have learned to see the song in a new light or gain some new appreciation for it. It's also entirely possible I'll develop a fondness for it at some point in the future. But right now... no, no I still definitely dislike this.

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Okay, I do not have the energy to burn on wruteups for every single song. Let's just say everything I ranked in sixth through eleventh place is somewhere between "3/10" and "5.3/10" (which is still way beyond Seven Nation Army, which is probably around a 2) on the scoring chart and move along.

*continued*

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Little Acorns: If only I had found this song three or four years ago, I'd probably be bouncing off the walls singing its praises. I had a serious addiction to spoken word samples a while back and I'd probably be screaming "10/10 best song everrrrsss" because there's like a spoken word news story, but like, it's inside a song--like OMG YOU GUYZ THERE'S -WORDS- IN THIs `song~. Unfortunately for us all, while I can still enjoy and appreciate me some spoken words and odd samples, they're not an automatic victory any longer.

Likewise, any reference to furryness was once a source of infinite points. It's not a furry song, but you can twist "be like the squirrel" in a lot of fun ways, were you the type of person desperately seeking an excuse to put on a fursuit and live in a tree. It's a glorious world in the tree; there are no endlessly repeated sentence fragments, there is only tree. (Fair warning, I *may* be overly stimulated at the moment and slightly more erratic than usual.)

AAAANYWHO... while this isn't a song I'd ever heard before, it is oddly nostalgic due to how strongly it would have appealed to my past self. Ah, Past Raetsel. So young (comparitively). So fluffy. So spellbound by spoken words. This is probably like a... 5.5/10 song for me these days, but it's fun to reminisce.

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There's No Home For You Here: I think I like this song, but I'd like to listen to it a few more times on different weeks before committing to that statement. While it seems like something I should dislike on paper--the chorus is certainly the definition of the repetition I condemn at every possible opportunity--but I actually find this rather pleasing. The snarky bitterness of the lyrics is something I find incredibly appealing right now.

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In The Cold, Cold Night: This album could use more Meg White to be quite honest. ...Honestly, most albums would probably benefit from her appearance. Don't have a lot to say here; I like the way her voice sounds and I dig the general feel of this track. It's one of those "I like this and have no desire to elaborate any further" songs.

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Well It's True That We Love One Another: An homage to The Mama's and The Papa's 60's folk music. I don't know that I've mentioned it in this series, but I was raised on an oldies station that focused on the 50's and 60's, so I actually have a lot of nostalgia for songs that are done in this style. It's also wonderfully charming and I had a smile on my face the entire time. It's still not a song that I really love, but it's a jolly good time and a throwback to an era of music that doesn't see much play these days.

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...okay, enough writeups.

To be clear, Raetsel, I'm happy you have been participating since the beginning. The true purpose of this series is to function as some sort of album club, and the ranking is simply a way of gamifying that to draw more interest here. I wouldn't want to do anything like discount outliers because I don't want to discourage people from participating.

I was just amused at a ranking that will likely be very opposite mine. I find it interesting when people can listen to the same album and like completely different parts.

I dont remember who but someone, when we covered Nevermind, put as #1 Endless, Nameless. For me, that was as easy a last place as it gets. So when I see that as someones fave its like huh.ok.

I think I was one of the highest ratings for Spice and I was a big fan of Hamilton too (other than it being too long for casual listens). On the other hand, as a fan of pop and EDM Im not particularly bothered by a lot of repetition.

Anyway, I just think its fun when more people engage and participate, especially when they have strong positive OR negative opinions. Someone bashing or praising an album gives more insight then the middle of the road it was okay that so many albums illicit from me.

Seanchan posted...

I dont remember who but someone, when we covered Nevermind, put as #1 Endless, Nameless. For me, that was as easy a last place as it gets. So when I see that as someones fave its like huh.ok.

Johnbobb apparently, though I also had it ranked quite highly. Sometimes I'm in the mood for a really aggressive song and that track is certainly angry.

CasanovaZelos posted...

To be clear, Raetsel, I'm happy you have been participating since the beginning. The true purpose of this series is to function as some sort of album club, and the ranking is simply a way of gamifying that to draw more interest here. I wouldn't want to do anything like discount outliers because I don't want to discourage people from participating.

Thank you, that does mean a lot.

When you post the results from this topic, you should probably leave out my writeups for Button, Biscuit, Army, and Squirrel--most for being too long and negative (I honestly don't want that type of vitriol on the results) and the last for... let's just say "obvious reasons". The three positive writeups should be fine, though I can understand the value in ignoring this detour altogether.

I appreciate the diversity in rankings and music genres that we cover. Enjoy each others tastes and opinions! IMO this project isnt about what song wins.

neonreaper posted...

I appreciate the diversity in rankings and music genres that we cover. Enjoy each others tastes and opinions! IMO this project isnt about what song wins.

Me, I just am fascinated by stats and I probably should have been clearer about that.

Raetsel, I'm sorry if you took offense to anything I said. I was only talking about the end result from a statistical standpoint and not your taste. Thank you for typing all that up. I will read it and reply to it later today.

I have been curious about integrating the win-loss formula I used for the album poll for the weekly polls, which I think does a better job at capturing the consensus regardless of outliers...but it also takes quite a bit more time to calculate

It's fine and I may have overreacted a bit, though clarifying you meant things from a purely statistical standpoint earlier might have helped a bit... the way you said I was maximizing my outlier score made me think you were trying to say I was intentionally being contrary and thus shouldn't count. I'm fine with different methods of calculation and contrasting the results, even ones that minimize my input, but having to prove my thoughts are genuine is a bit of a sore spot. My apologies for reading something into your comments that wasn't there.

Quite possibly the best White Stripes album, or at least their most accessible

1) Black Math
The sick-nastiest chugging opening guitar riff, with a phat tempo change at the bridge and a solo that comes at you like a bat out of hell. I'm glad Jack is self-aware about which of his songs are the most bad-ass - he's played this almost every time I've seen him live.

2) Girl, You Have No Faith in Medicine
A hidden gem toward the end of the album - I swear I forget it's even on there half the time I listen to it through in order, but it's such a good jam. The bit near the end when Jack just leaves dead air where the last line of the verse should be cracks me up.

3) Ball and Biscuit
It's quite possible that this is my 3rd-favorite track, but it's a fact that (irl) Jack White is a 7th son

4) The Hardest Button to Button
One of the coolest music videos ever. My old band covered this at a Detroit show ten years ago and it was the most fun.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUx3kDnT-p8

5) Little Acorns
Love the piano that comes in under Mort Crim's reading. Classic weird Jack White vocals.

6) Hypnotize
A fun, catchy little jam. Very danceable.

7) I Just Don't Know What to Do with Myself
White Stripes covers of classic songs are pretty much always good

8) There's No Home for You Here
Epic use of the octave pedal once again. You know sometimes I think the character singing may be in the wrong here....

9) Seven Nation Army
A fine song that will be chanted at sporting events until the end of time

10) The Air Near My Fingers
Cool synth riff

11) I Want to Be the Boy to Warm Your Mother's Heart
Decent piano

12) You've Got Her in Your Pocket
Watched Jack perform this and get kind of emotional - the lyrics hit for sure

13) In the Cold, Cold Night
It's cool that Meg gets to sing now and again. It's also cool that she doesn't sing *too* often >_>

14) Well It's True That We Love One Another
I don't hate this, but it feels out of place and isn't really as charming as they probably thought it would be when making it. I also still don't really know who Holly Golightly is (aside from Audrey Hepburn's character in Breakfast at Tiffany's).

Raetsel_Lapin posted...

the way you said I was maximizing my outlier score made me think you were trying to say I was intentionally being contrary and thus shouldn't count

Yeah, I admit I said it wrong. I do that far more than I'd like, and that's my fault. But the reason why outliers are disregarded is because data keepers have no idea which ones are being honest and which ones are trolling. Like how can you tell if it's all numerical data?

When I have an opinion on one or two songs that are going to feel contrarian, I explain myself in the original post. Like "This is more redundant than a Milli Vanilli song" would suffice for "Button" here, and I would have respected that. I happen to not notice the repetition as much here as I do in other songs where it gets obnoxiously "This song's just six words long" in a non-satirical way.

Thanks for participating all this time (you have more than I have) and offering another viewpoint. I know you and I practically never see eye-to-eye on songs here (though we actually kind of do on "Cold, Cold Night" and I do think Hamilton is awesome too, tyvm - ranking it was the hard part) and there isn't anything wrong with that. Never wanted to make you feel like there was. And I'm sorry that I did. I legit feel bad.

And again, thank you for taking the time to express yourself like that. It was a fantastic read. It always feels good when I get to get things off my chest, and I took no offense or anything so don't worry about me.

CasanovaZelos posted...

I have been curious about integrating the win-loss formula I used for the album poll for the weekly polls, which I think does a better job at capturing the consensus regardless of outliers...but it also takes quite a bit more time to calculate

If you could share the formula, I might be able to do this.... depending on how much more time we're talking.

BlueCrystalTear posted...

And I'm sorry that I did. I legit feel bad.

It's cool. I mean, I needed to apologize for reading more into things than was intended and I feel bad for making you feel bad, so let's just forgive and forget, yeah?

Raetsel_Lapin posted...

It's cool. I mean, I needed to apologize for reading more into things than was intended and I feel bad for making you feel bad, so let's just forgive and forget, yeah?

Sounds good to me :)

I, too, would like to apologize for jumping to conclusions that anyone here was trying to get Raetsel's ranking this week discounted or anything like that. Clearly there's a bit of a gulf between my beliefs on giving posts the benefit of the doubt due to the difficulty of conveying tone/intention in text and my willingness to actually give said benefit of the doubt. Instead, I let some strongly held feelings I have about the nature of art and engagement with it take over in an attempt to stave off what I feared was happening, and again, I'm sorry for that rather rude misinterpretation.

Uh anyways, now that I know we're all on the same page, here's some (inter)related rambles that you all probably shouldn't read:

~-~
(On Statistics [a reply to #19])
~-~

BlueCrystalTear posted...

I was thinking just extreme outliers being discounted for statistical calculations. Like consider the formula where x = the number of album tracks:
x * ((X-1)/2)

So 14 * 6.5 = 91.

It would be 105 for 15+ tracks, 78 for 13 tracks, 66 for 12 tracks, 55 for 11, 45 for 10 tracks, 36 for 9 tracks, 28 for 8 tracks, and 21 for 7 tracks.

I probably should know the answer to this, but I am curious - what is your reasoning behind using that specific formula to determine whether or not an outlier is extreme? I can see that said formula offers a smooth progression from an average outlier of 3 ranks per track at 7 tracks up to 7 ranks per track at 15 tracks in .5 intervals, but I'm sure there's something more foundational I'm missing. And yes, I'm also sure I'm not living up to my username by this line of questioning >_>

BlueCrystalTear posted...

As someone with "Stats" in your username, I'm sure you know about outliers which skew the average in ways that don't accurately represent consensus.

I do indeed, partly from personal experience - though our track rankings don't directly draw on the average of each participant's individual ranks, which likely dampens the effect somewhat. To say much more directly about what I quoted would be a completely unnecessary rehash of earlier posts. However, I would like to raise the related point that individual song rankings can likewise skew that track's average in unrepresentative ways.

A case in point that I alluded to before is my #1 rank for Fitter Happier when we tackled OK Computer - a drastic outlier with only one other rank above #9, even though my album outlier score was unexceptional. It was only my third time participating in Rank the Tracks, ranking two minutes of quasi-spoken word atop an album that I knew had an exceptional mystique among music fans of all sorts, and I didn't even attempt to specifically justify that ranking. For all CZ would have known back then, it was an act of trolling on my part. Yet they allowed my ranking through anyways, for which I am forever thankful even though I ungratefully whined about something semi-related at the time.

Anyways, this statistical talk inspired me to check the stats (specifically, standard deviation) for how great an outlier a few of my most unusual rankings truly were. The results notably confirm my Fitter Happier ranking as a (seemingly my most, in fact) drastic departure from the norm; I'll post them tomorrow as part of a post I haven't quite finished tonight.

last day

I appreciate people complaining about Raetsel_Lapin's ranking because we just got a bunch of great write-ups because of it

Endless, Nameless is still the best song on Nevermind

1. Girl, You Have No Faith in Medicine
2. Black Math
3. The Hardest Button to Button
4. There's No Home for You Here
5. Little Acorns
6. I Just Don't Know What to Do With Myself
7. Seven Nation Army - Seven Nation Army is a great song. It is also by far White Stripes' most overrated song
8. Hypnotize
9. Ball and Biscuit
10. In the Cold, Cold Night - Meg needs to get more chances to vocalize
11. Well It's True That We Love One Another
12. The Air Near My Fingers
13. You've Got Her in Your Pocket
14. I Want to Be the Boy to Warm Your Mother's Heart

.

MetalmindStats posted...

I probably should know the answer to this, but I am curious - what is your reasoning behind using that specific formula to determine whether or not an outlier is extreme?

I originally didn't have the (x - 1) - it was just x * (x/2) and that made it so it legit never happened, so I figured it was too extreme. I felt that I could lower it slightly more, so I found a way to do that which made sense to me.

Ball and Biscuit
Girl, You Have No Faith In Medicine
Black Math
Seven Nation Army
The Hardest Button to Button
Well its true that we love one another
The Air Near My Fingers
I Just Dont Know What to Do With Myself
In the Cold Cold Night
Hypnotize
Little Acorns
Youve got her in your pocket
Theres No Home For You Here
I Want To Be The Boy to Warm Your Mother

Personally prefer most of the other white stripes albums but this one isnt bad.

Ball and Biscuit
Black Math
Seven Nation Army
The Hardest Button to Button
I Just Don't Know What to Do With Myself
In the Cold, Cold Night
There's No Home for You Here
Girl, You Have No Faith in Medicine
Hypnotize
Little Acorns
Well It's True That We Love One Another
I Want to Be the Boy to Warm Your Mother's Heart
The Air Near My Fingers
You've Got Her in Your Pocket

1. Seven Nation Army
2. The Hardest Button to Button
3. Ball and Biscuit
4. Hypnotize
5. Girl, You Have No Faith in Medicine
6. I Just Don't Know What to Do With Myself
7. In the Cold, Cold Night
8. Black Math
9. You've Got Her in Your Pocket
10. The Air Near My Fingers
11. There's No Home for You Here
12. Well It's True That We Love One Another
13. I Want to Be the Boy to Warm Your Mother's Heart
14. Little Acorns

I came into this week expecting I'd really like this album, which kinda made no sense because I never dove into The White Stripes back during their peak. After 3 listens, it confirmed that I was right not to have gotten into them. I think the biggest thing is that I'm just not a big fan of Jack's vocals. That isn't to say this is a bad album, just that it's not really for me. This one is squarely not the realm of "I'd listen to my top few songs again but not the full album".

oh shit almost missed the chance

nice

BlueCrystalTear posted...

I originally didn't have the (x - 1) - it was just x * (x/2) and that made it so it legit never happened, so I figured it was too extreme. I felt that I could lower it slightly more, so I found a way to do that which made sense to me.

Fair enough - the (x - 1) bit is also part of the formula for standard deviation from a sample size, so I see how that makes sense. And speaking of which, another related ramble that you all probably shouldn't read:

~-~
(On My Own Outlier Opinions)
~-~

I know it isn't necessary, but this whole conversation has made me want to explain a few of my most markedly divergent takes from the past. ...This will also be the first time I say anything of even slight substance about two of these three albums. That's because I started saving most of my thoughts for Rank the Albums a while ago due mainly to the difficulty I anticipated (and did indeed have) in proffering write-ups for albums which I'd already commented on. (Of course, I could still comment on individual tracks, so I guess I really ought to start doing so when my opinions markedly diverge from the apparent consensus.) Anyways!

OK Computer - Fitter Happier (album outlier score: +1.24 standard deviations; track ranking: -3.26 standard deviations)

In retrospect, the sheer positivity of my OK Computer write-up surprises me, even knowing it was likely my offbeat attempt at justifying my most eyebrow-raising ranking maybe ever. For a long while, I'd thought of the album as one that undoubtedly had many positive characteristics but (one song aside) nonetheless missed me as a whole. After finally relistening to it yesterday, however, I find myself somewhere in between those two extremes.

That one song was actually Paranoid Android, not Fitter Happier, though I think I would still rank the latter in my top three just as I have after all my previous listens. It certainly still stands out for me, which I tend to value in the context of OK Computer. Also, I really like the way unease subtly creeps into the song's soundscape, as juxtaposed against the narration's even-keeled specificity. Plus, I still agree with the comments from OK Computer's topic holding Fitter Happier up as an essential component of its album.

Images and Words - Take the Time + Wait for Sleep (album outlier score: +2.44 standard deviations; Take the Time ranking: -1.27 standard deviations; Wait for Sleep ranking: -1.82 standard deviations)

I honestly forgot about these until BCT brought them up, only for Wait for Sleep to almost immediately pop into my mind once I read that post. It's an aspect of how I evaluate and engage with music I find about as important as how I feel about a given song/album while I'm actually listening to it. My subsequent Images and Words relisten entirely affirmed my feelings and track ranking from a couple months back, as unusual as the latter seems to be. As an album, it's one of many from this cycle I've liked but definitely not loved, and I'd prefer to reserve further commentary for Rank the Albums Volume 3.

I think it's reasonable to posit that my Images and Words track ranking is exceptional mostly due to my simultaneous high rankings of both our bottom two songs. Having Take the Time in third is nothing special on its own, so I hope saying that I've simply found its chorus continually catchy will be enough.

Wait for Sleep, on the other hand, sort of has Fitter Happier syndrome in that it's a disproportionately short component of a much-discussed album entirely focused on its conceit, and of course in that I ranked it at the top anyways. I find it a song with palpably emotionally evocative composition, driven by its very pretty and remarkably sticky piano chorus. Its lyrics and delivery likewise foster an intimately relatable melancholia, something which tends to endear a song to me. It doesn't threaten to overstay its welcome, either, which helps it stand out in an album of long, heavily instrumental songs that I feel does nothing especially unusual with all its time.

Third - Nylon Smile + The Rip (album outlier score: +2.04 standard deviations; Nylon Smile ranking: -2.38 standard deviations; The Rip ranking: +2.36 standard deviations)

Unlike the past two albums, I'm posting entirely from memory here because my last listen was in the past week, and also due to the vivid collective imprint Third has already left on my mind. That being said, I don't actually want to post much about the nature of said vivid collective imprint, if only because I'd like to gush as coherently as possible come Volume 3 of Rank the Albums! I hope it suffices for me to say that I think of my last-place track (currently Silence) almost as positively as a majority of the tracks I've ranked in first over the last twenty weeks.

Which, yes, means that it was rash of me to rank The Rip all the way down there, a consequence of my failure to give myself a listen-free day to reflect on Third and see which songs (and which parts of them, and for what reason[s]) popped into my head. Regardless, even my current ninth would have been a markedly low ranking. Besides the aforementioned tough competition, I think that's partly because The Rip's lyrics are a bit too metaphorical for me to relate to, and partly because I waver between the thought that its rather subdued first half only enhances the impact of its second half and the idea that said payoff fails to fully justify the buildup.

As for Nylon Smile, I'll fully admit that the critiques of its simplistic soundscapes are fair - they just aren't a mark against it for me personally. I'd say the song's focus is on lyrics driving the music, rather than the other way around as is arguably the case for much of its album. To digress a bit again into my own peculiarities, I tend to recall songs mainly by memorizing their written lyrics alongside the delivery thereof. Furthermore, perhaps the quickest path to my heart is open to already emotionally evocative songs that intimately tap into my personal insecurities, self-doubt, and/or life history to date. Of course, Gibbons' honed yet heartrending vocals (which I've found I enjoy singing along to <_<) also markedly contribute to the ways Nylon Smile shines for me.

1. In the Cold, Cold Night - I love that incessantly lurking organ, which paints a persistent picture in concert with Meg's limited yet effective vocals and the occasional guitar (I think) contribution.
2. Theres No Home for You Here
3. Well Its True That We Love One Another - Perhaps this shouldn't work at all, especially as the closer, yet it totally works for me, especially as the closer.
4. Seven Nation Army
5. The Air Near My Fingers
6. Girl, You Have No Faith in Medicine
7. Black Math
8. Hypnotize
9. Little Acorns
10. I Just Dont Know What to Do With Myself
11. The Hardest Button to Button
12. Ball and Biscuit
13. I Want to Be the Boy to Warm Your Mothers Heart
14. Youve Got Her in Your Pocket

Also, I'll volunteer to make the topic two weeks from today, though I'm willing to let anyone who'd prefer to take it up do so.

CasanovaZelos posted...

uhh

Who could have guessed one non-word would cause such an outpouring of conversation and analysis!

Seanchan posted...

Who could have guessed one non-word would cause such an outpouring of conversation and analysis!

I like it a lot.

And, I think in the future, people should post explanations for any songs they have different stances on. Like Metalmind did for two songs above. I always try to do that. Like with putting the Metallica instrumental first because "I'm not one for the screaming," for example.

Working on getting my nominations together btw. I have a feeling what I'm going for might not go over well, but we'll see.

I guess they are just fans of Meg White and thats all

Seanchan posted...

1. Seven Nation Army
2. The Hardest Button to Button
3. Ball and Biscuit
4. Hypnotize
5. Girl, You Have No Faith in Medicine
6. I Just Don't Know What to Do With Myself
7. In the Cold, Cold Night
8. Black Math
9. You've Got Her in Your Pocket
10. The Air Near My Fingers
11. There's No Home for You Here
12. Well It's True That We Love One Another
13. I Want to Be the Boy to Warm Your Mother's Heart
14. Little Acorns
I came into this week expecting I'd really like this album, which kinda made no sense because I never dove into The White Stripes back during their peak. After 3 listens, it confirmed that I was right not to have gotten into them. I think the biggest thing is that I'm just not a big fan of Jack's vocals. That isn't to say this is a bad album, just that it's not really for me. This one is squarely not the realm of "I'd listen to my top few songs again but not the full album".

...is the 'not' in the last sentence supposed to be 'in'?

BlueCrystalTear posted...

If you could share the formula, I might be able to do this.... depending on how much more time we're talking.

The thing is, I don't know how to create an excel formula for the win-loss system. I have to count each individual match-up. It would be quicker with most albums because there are less match-ups, but calculating the results now is as simple as plugging all the data into an excel sheet.

CasanovaZelos posted...

...is the 'not' in the last sentence supposed to be 'in'?

Yes, I meant squarely in the realm

Thats what I get for finishing this last thing at night.